News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


German fury at AfD Hoecke's Holocaust memorial remark

"He spoke of the German state of mind until now as of a "brutally defeated people" and Germany needed a "180-degree turn'' when remembering its past. Instead of teaching Germany's schoolchildren about the country's world-renowned philosophers, musicians and inventors, of which he suggested Germany had more than any other people, German history was being made "lousy and ridiculous", he complained."

google.com/amp/s/bbc.com/news/world-europe-38661621.amp

This is the same man btw.

German far-right politician Björn Höcke guilty of using Nazi slogan

google.com/amp/s/bbc.com/news/world-europe-69012813.amp

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Not sure what you mean by this. The EU offers smaller and poorer countries a shot at prosperity and equal treatment that they would otherwise never have. How any of that should qualify as "economic imperialism" is beyond. Hence so many of them are still trying to join the EU.


Yep, she pretty much defines it.


Well, are migrants responsible for the threat of Russia? Or climate change? Europe's declining birth rate and economic stagnation? Are they responsible for the trade war that Trump unleashed, or the rise of China? Only a few years ago we experienced a pandemic that had a far bigger impact on our lifes.

Yeah, migration may pose a challenge and pose problems, but it is not the root cause of our problems. Nor would those huge, primary threats to Europe suddenly disappear if migration dropped to 0 overnight.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


It really is not, and since we are living in times when various countries like China, Russia and - as it sadly looks like - the USA are actually practicing economic (and more) imperialism, I think it is necessary to make that distinction. The EU is not supporting Ukraine because it wants to extract its' ressources and make uneven deals with them,


Many of them are, and they have become more noticeable in the last few years. But there plenty of anti-semites who aren't muslims or born in a different country. We have the typical far-rightwingers and also this weird alliance between some far-left wing groups and muslim extremists who sympathize with Hamas at some universities.


The guy himself is a joke, and I doubt i.e. his talk with Alice Weidel from the AfD has convinced anyone to vote for the party. But he can give other, more convincing and clever people a wide audience with his platform, and this can really become problematic.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Two regions that rose to prominence during the industrial revolution, became main hubs for the manufacturing industry and never fully recovered when those industries disappeared. Quite a lot of parralels there.

And to be honest, this comparison wasn't my idea. It was made by a fellow student at Durham university who came from Birmingham and who had spent some time in the Ruhe Valley. He said he feld a kinship there.


This is really the problem with populism isn't it? That you can not have reasonable discussions anymore because the other side simply ignores all evidence that contradicts their views.


There is an actual imperialist power in Europe waging a war against a peaceful country right now.

The Ukrainians are currently facing imperialism down and as a result want to join the EU.

Before 2015 and especially 2022 those defamations were just stupid. Now they are also making light of the kind of evil Ukraine is opposing.

And btw also an often-used argument to excuse Russian imperialism. Because after all, if the EU is imperialistic, why shouldn't Russia be allowed to do the same?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]

I'd be delighted if you could prove me wrong. Always funny to bring that up against a friend of mine who is a die-hard lefty, but really uncomfortable with some of the voices inside the party and their views on Israel.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Well...

Chat group leak reveals far-right fantasies of Germany's AfD

Among tens of thousands of posts is talk of jailing Angela Merkel, calls for armed resistance, and homophobia

theguardian.com/world/2022/may/20/chat-group-leak-reveals-far-right-fantasies-of-germany-afd

Who knows what else is there.


Yeah, "some" members. Not the entire party leadership.

Look, I have no interest in defending the Left party. If you ask me it was a political tragedy that the SED survived the GDR. And I hope Wolfram Weimar will do something against the antisemitism in those "progressive" circles who call themselves artists.

But the case against the AfD is not built on the presence of some AfD members on demonstrations, so I don't see the comparison here.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Are those protests organized by a political party?

Which party is systematically using that kind of rhetoric against jews?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


I'd say a pretty good test for what is acceptable is looking at whether or not it would be acceptable to make such remarks about another minority.

Would it be acceptable for someone to say that he dislikes Jews, that they are all potential criminals, to give them insulting nicknames and to state that Jews can never become truly German? Of course not. If it turns out that leading politicians from the AfD use and encourage that kind of rhethoric,... .


I was refering to the classification of the AfD as an "extremist" party by the report. Which if those quotes are true and as numerous as claimed, is probably going to be confirmed by the courts.

Banning the AfD requires another process and as you said, possibly further proof. If the courts confirm the report, then the classification of the AfD will permit the Verfassungsschutz to aquire informants and use other investigative methods. Currently they are almost exclusively looking at public statements. But since plans to overthrow the democracy are rarely spellt out in public, they'll have to look what AfD politicians are saying and writing behind the scenes.


At least I have more than strong opinions to back up my positions. Not like I have to be selective here, Birmingham's problems are widely publicized. Something someone from the Ruhr Valley can actually emphasize with. It is hard to get out of this vicious cycle.


Next you'll be calling the EU the Fourth Reich.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


You sure have rose-tinted way of looking at things in the UK. I am sure there are beautiful places in both cities. Just as there are beautiful places in e.g. Berlin. But my experience there reflects more the reality which is mentioned here:

Life in Britain's Universal Credit capital: How Birmingham is facing a jobs crisis and spiralling child poverty as locals say 'this place is f

google.com/amp/s/dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14028749/amp/Life-deprived-city-unemployment-benefits-Britain.html

"Journalism" I suppose?


That is the issue here. They have made those statements publically. And if it can be shown that AfD politicians have systematically pushed those narratives... Well, the AfD will be in hot water indeed.
.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


As I've written above, the UK had since 2010 6 different PMs and 2 premature elections. That is hardly stable.


Well, more with correcting misinformation.


To Poland I'd agree. But the UK? Please. I have been
to Manchester and Birmingham.

Your initial question was how people in the West and South are reacting to the rise of the AfD. I tried to illustrate it how they view them likely similar to how comparable people in the UK view Farage and his ilk.


Nothing. Jon made the claim that the FPTP system is good for political stability and contrasted it to the system that supposedly led to the collapse of the previous German government. I just pointed out to him the evidence for that is not really there.

In fact there are reasons to believe that the AfD might benefit more from a FPTP system. They would no longer need to convince a majority to vote for them. A determined, strategically placed minority would suffice.


Almost as if poor, desperate people may end up voting for populist positions and proposals ... . Trump, Brexit, Le Pens voter, now the AfD. There is a clear pattern there. But no one has really found an answer how to solve this.

Even if Merz gets the refugee numbers drastically down to e.g. 100k. I doubt this would actually make a difference to most AfD voters.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


I am not the one defending the indefensible (Brexit) here by just ignoring the evidence brought against my position.


The only offices the AfD holds are those that require a direct, simple majority vote like e.g. mayors of small towns. Not exactly something that was brought on by proportional representation. I am sure you have seen the electorial maps, showing large parts of the GDR in the colours of the AfD. If we had FPTP, then the AFD would actually be running those states by now.


Just a reminder. Since 2010, the UK had 6 different PMs. Only one of whom has actually managed to last an entire term. One of your PMs couldn't outlast a lettuce. You had 3 premature elections called. Now I wouldn't use that necessarily as an argument as FPTP (there are honestly better ones who don't fall back on specific situations) but it hardly guarantees stability.


Which is fine and all, but it is not like they went into this election with even a remote chance of getting even a relative majority and ended up with less than 15% of the total votes. What is really going to interesting is what happens if they go into the next election with 29%+ (their current poll numbers).

With FPTP you can actually end up with a government that has only won slightly more than 30% of the total vote shares. And any system that rewards a determined, united minority can fall prey to extremists. Historically speaking, most extremists who succeeded did not get into power by convincing more than half of the population to follow them/vote for them. They usually relied on a sizeable minority of people who fought passionately for their cause until the rest resigned/ceased their resistance or fell victim to infighting.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]


A lame duck who can delay the forming of a new government and frustrate the political agenda of this government with his veto. Which is usually not helpful for the country.


Why? If it is a king without any political power and with a purely ceremonial role, then you could still go with a directly or indirectly elected president.

If the king has actual power, then it is not very democratic is it?

Off-Topic / Habemus Papam / The New Pope [103]

Well he had his formative years as a priest during the papacy of John Paul II... . But who knows, maybe he'll positively surprise us.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]


It shouldn't be. The Polish president is directly elected by the people and has a stronger position according to the constitution.

Although that also leaves more opportunities for the office to be exploited in the interests of the president's party, which in return can lead to a deadlock.

I generally like the Polish solution more because it gives the presidential office more of a purpose and legitimacy. But what happens if you end up with a president who is fundamentally opposed to anything the government wants to do?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


I am just correcting false claims that you have made.


So fake news then. You are arguing like most voters of the AfD do. When challenged with facts, they'll just ignore them.


Now imagine how well the UK would be doing now if it hadn't commited the folly of Brexit.It wasn't the EU's fault that the German econony got dependent on Russian gas and the Chinese market.


Or makes it even more vulnerable to it. It is possible for a party in the UK to gain a majority in the elections despite receiving less than 40% of the votes. Sure this can be somewhat alleviated by all other parties uniting agains the Reform candidate, but that is not a long-term solution. And once those alliances break,FPTP means that the extremist party will find it even easier to gain and maintain power. Farage and his party were able to blackmail the Tories into this disastrous Brexit course precisely because losing even some votes to them would have allowed Labour to gain their seats.

FPTP is really nothing to brag about. It is an outdated system that for good reasons has not been adopted by any country that has undergone a democratic transformation in the last few decades. If we had FPTP, there would be already AfD governments in several East German states.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


London.gov.uk is a newspaper?


Stunted economic growth, more red tape while trading with many of the UK's biggest trading partners are supposed to be no drawbacks?

Brexit red tape on British businesses has caused goods trade between the UK and EU to slump and the problem is getting worse, a study has warned.

google.com/amp/s/bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd988p00z1no.amp

This is something even Nigel Farage has admitted to

Nigel Farage on Brexit: Red tape for UK businesses has got worse since UK quit the European Union

Of course he denied that would happen during the Brexit vampaign...

This isn't rocket science. Putting trade barriers and red tape (which is what Brexit means) on your closest trading partners was never going to be good for the economy. Trump is now finding that out for himself, and he has the negotiating leverage of a superpower on his side.

Not to mention other consequences.

Universities across the UK struggle since Brexit

kentandsurreybylines.co.uk/politics/brexit/universities-across-the-uk-struggle-since-brexit/


140bn poorer to be exact.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


I can accept anything if I see evidence that it is true.

The sources I provided you with clearly state the opposite. And they are not from the EU but the UK.


British people are poorer and lost jobs and other opportunities due to Brexit. As such they suffering the consequences of Brexit. You can be in denial about that, but it is what it is.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]

Well, we are talking about why people are voting for the AfD despite their obvious problems.

I pointed out that a similar movement is also gaining strength in the UK.

Some people just cling to their convictions and there is no arguing with them. That is the case in every country. I am sure there are specific examples of some buisness benefiting from Brexit, as shown in the link I provided, the overall picture is clearly negative. The City of London hasn't fared better either.

City of London chief says Brexit 'disaster' cost 40,000 finance jobs

uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/city-london-chief-says-brexit-082234030.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMFTaZr5njdVRWmfgSCAX3VeiL7jaQlgVNXH7dP5gEmtHyIpKD--Q5ghUuwk0cgNe_4KE3wtLdMLFjZCz6cX4OC5fdIlLpNZ6HABgDkvR_SEnKId9bhSASf8Y_OZ4nvYCHP1tq94WTD8z9eUgNpU96rB8a7c3VIUPzrrjt1K3ndV

And I dont even know where to begin with your weird ideas about nationalization. Trains are in many countries not in private hands and the EU has nonissue with it. So why bring it up? It wasn't the EU who forced the UK in all kinds of private-public partnerships and other weirdndeals.

Same thing trying to argue with AfD voters. You can bring up data and historical precent, but they don't care.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


The UK is today poorer than it would be if it had remained in the EU, with the Brexiteers promising the opposite. Even the city suffered unnecessary losses, If you want to pretend that Brexit was a success because it just diminished economic growth instead of outright crashing the economy, then so be it.

london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit

It is obvious that it was a poor decision with predictably negative consequences for both sides. It weakened the UK and the EU, and left both sides more vulnerable to hostile actors, be it Trump or Putin. A tragic mistake we all have to live with.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Defending everything your country against all evidence (and indeed the views of most British people at this point) did on principle is kinda boring. It is ok to admit that Brexit was a stupid decision. Something every expert warned about, yet people voted for it. If the AfD ends up elected, nobody will be able to complain that nobody had warned about them.


I just didn't want to compare the consequences of Brexit with a war. As bad as it turned out to be, the suffering is quite on a different scale. Maybe Suez would have been a better comparison? Though again people died there as well.


Calling migrants "Messermänner" seems more than a strong opinion to me.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Yet they riding high in the polls and had a remarkeable success in the local elections.

google.com/amp/s/bbc.com/news/articles/cp8jdr6ylzjo.amp

It is evident that Farage is benefiting from the unpopularity of both Labour and the Tories, quite like in Germany with the SPD and CDU losing votes to the AfD.

The man has been caught in many scandals, looked poorly in many public debates, and is with Brexit responsible for the biggest disaster in British history since WWII. It should be plain to see that this man should never have political power. Yet more and more people are considering to vote for him.

That is how the AfD looks like to many.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Problaby something similar to what many Brits are saying now while watching the success of Farage and his Reform party. Disbelief that people are voting for those politicians, coupled with the realization that this party now becoming a possible factor in their home towns.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Doesn't really matter if those countries refuse to take them back in the first place.

"Hey Marocco, we'll dump some people who may or may not be your citizen in your desert". I am sure this would work well... .


What law?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Not really a difference is there, when they arrive in Germany? Germany is not the first safe country on their route from either Ukraine or Syria.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


There is a need if the third country refuses to take him back. Can't punish people because countries refuse to fullfill their legal obligations.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Not like Bürgergeld is that generous to begin with. It is already as low as the law permits. And it only applys for recognised refugees.


That hasn't worked so far, has it? If someone enters via Poland and Poland refuses to take him back, he has to apply for asylum here.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Again, people who worked for decades and became unemployed would be receiving Arbeitslosengeld I instead.

Bürgergeld is something everyone receives as long as he has a legal reason to stay in Germany. Including Germans who have never worked in their life.

Btw. the conclusion from your link: "Benefits not a 'pull factor'"

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


It is also easy to disprove. Refugees don't automatically get Bürgergeld and for that matter, someone who has worked for decades won't be getting Bürgergeld but the more generous Arbeitslosengeld I for up to two years.


That is the consequence though.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


Our constitution and laws place a lot of importance on human dignity. Which is why leaving people to starve -whether they are refugees or Germans unwilling to work - is not something German courts go along easily.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1442]


There are legal limits to what extent those payments can be cut. Courts have made that abundantly clear.


Lets' be real here. Refugees have created a lot of expenses during the last few years, but the problems with e.g. our pension systems are a few magnitudes larger.