History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


I don't think so. I have studied the matter quite thoroughly but no matter where the soldiers would come from, they would never have been a match for the advancing Serbian army and to start fighting with them, especially when, like Stu mentioned, the air support for which was asked a few times, doesn't arrive, it's nothing less than a suicide mission. Plus you seem to forget that the Serbians took 30 Dutch soldiers hostage as well in order to prevent air strikes.

Edit: don't you go and play the anti Polish card.

>^..^<

M-G (how brave they are)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

The area involved used to be called Ruthenia. And Ruthenians are the anchestors of modern-day Ukrainians. Leopolis was founded by the Ruthenians. After that, Poles conquered it. And the main cause of the Polish-Ukrainian war was Leopolis. "Leopolis" to avoid any Polish or Ukrainian name of Lemberg, Lwow, Lviv as I believe "Leopolis" was the very first name of the city.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Maybe if you look at it from a Ukrainian perspective, neither occupations would be preferable. It's actually a pretty arrogant statement to say to the Ukrainians "look here, you should be happy we're occupying you. If the commies come, whom we hate, you'd be much worse off. Ukrainian independence? Haha, you're not capable of being independent; no, let us occupy your lands because we know what's best for you."

I think you would find many Ukrainians disagreeing with this kind of statements. Don't forget they saw the Poles as enemies.

But, following your reasoning, I am sure you wouldn't have any problem with Germany and Russia splitting up Poland again: two rich and strong countries; Poland could only benefit from an occupation.

;)

>^..^<

M-G (wondrous world)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

What was the author of those books? Usually says sth about the contents. And even though the 80's is slightly before my time as a historian, I am sure that if this is an obvious mistake or erronous view, it would have been burned down by other historians.

Like I said above, books like these are not very good examples as they stand on their own and perhaps represent not a common view on a certain subject. I know that after Cromwell, at the end of the 1780's, early 1790's, there was a brief union between England and NL, due to King William 3 of Orange, which was Dutch, ascending to the English throne. It's very well pssbl that that king (and I take it that this specific is being examined in the excerpt you're gonna pop up with) took indeed Dutch soldiers with him (not mercenaries - they were in service of the king, but in a way ALL soldiers in those days were mercenaries as they all got paid for their services), but that's where my knowledge stops. Have to look into the matter a little deeper when I have time as it's not my time-period for one.

>^..^<

M-G (no enlightening on the remark about Srebrenica?)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

I agree on Russia and Ukraine, but not on Romania. In Romania the pogroms were only aimed at the Roma gypsies. And they still go on, as recent as 2005. I haven't found any evidence of Hungarian pogroms after 1945 and Slovakia I yet have to research.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


No, I never gave pan-germanism any thought.


As long as you react only to the illustrations I add and don't react to my main statement (in this case a question), you cannot accuse me of ignoring your arguments.

Edit: but let's for fun's sake have a look at your arguments:

So, what you're basically saying is that the Ukrainians should be happy that the Poles came to occupy them? Consider them the lesser evil? I am sure that Ukrainians at the time would wholeheartedly disagree with you. An occupying force is an occupying force and just because you hate the Soviets, it doesn't mean that an occupation by those commies would have been experienced less pleasant than a Polish occupation, given the Ukrainian quest for independence.

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


They were co-responsible. Let's not forget that the Serbs were the main perpetrators, not Dutchbat or the Dutch govt or the UN, those latter three didn't kill thousands of Bosniaks, Serbs did.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Usually those kind of "historic" works are not taken seriously. In NL there is a book called "De Lage Landen Bij De Zee" (The Low Countries By The Sea) and it's full of glorious events and glorified events in Dutch history. Also, the obvious "villains" in Dutch history get even further demonized and villified, no nuance added and all is to show the greatness of the Dutch history. This book is not seriously considered as a valuable historic work. Valuable perhaps only as antique. Nowadays historians add much more nuance to certain figures in Dutch history and so do the British historians. These books were probably written in a time when countries needed to glorify their past in order to gain a national identity. Now that this is no longer needed, historical debate is much more open and truthful. You're from a country that is still in the middle of finding its national identity (not suggesting anything here, it just takes a few generations before that indentity is established), therefore history books will be biased. Come again in some 50 years. History books will look much different than they do now.


Would you pls shut up about "political correctness"? I'm getting sick of everything that's not suitable to one's opinion being called "political correct". That's just a lousy excuse for having a wrong and not open opinion on things and a wrong label on any differing opinion than yours.


Indifferently? What could a few hundred soldiers, only armed with a handfull of personnel carriers and a bunch of light arms do against thousands and thousands heavily armed Serbian soldiers who also had dozens of heavy tanks? If you don't know everything about Srebrenica, then you shouldn't mention it.


See, this is what you guys are all good at: taking ONE dissenting voice and name that the truth. No matter if 1000 ppl say differently, if one guy says sth else then THAT must be the truth. Not a really good practice in the science of history and I am sure you would be fried to bits by historians if you would present this guy as the messenger of truth.

So, right wing is always correct and left wing is always incorrect? I think you should start studying history; you would find it's much different.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


And actually what makes the Ukrainian quest for independence so much different than the Polish quest for independence?

For all I know, Poland could've been beaten by the SU as well and then we'd be talking about Poland in the same way you guys talk about the Ukraine now.

It's kinda hard to imagine that on one hand on this forum they talk about the Ukrainians being the "brothers" of Poles, while on the other hand, they seem to have hated each other to bits. Again, so far for "Slavic Brotherhood" and "pan-slavism".

>^..^<

M-G (it doesn't exist anymore)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Thank you, that just made my night. I haven't laughed like that in quite a while :)

Anyway, I will continue tomorrow as I am turning in right now. Goodnight.

>^..^<

M-G (Buona Notte)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Experience learns me that when I do, you're nowhere to be found afterwards. And about running mouths, I guess we're pretty equal in that respect. Only I don't use as many insults like you do.


Just read back. I didn't start it. It came out of nowhere as bibi's attacks usually do.


We were actually discussing the destruction of Ukrainian churches by Poles, see the title of the thread :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Well at least everybody, except you, is trying to add sth to the discussion. You only deem it necessary to add your personal feelings here, injected with of course your usual insults, where they are totally out of place.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / History of Poland in 10 minutes. Really worth seeing! [134]


Correction, it wasn't Polish led, it was British led as the idea came from Montgomery. Sosabowski did take part in it, but only later. The major actions were undertaken by the British 1st Airborne Division and the American 84nd and 101st Airborne Division. The 1st Independent Polish Parachute Brigade came later on onto the battlefield, either on Tuesday 19th of September 1944 or Wednesday the 20th, can't remember.

Edit: that is not to say that we here in our area don't honour the Polish contribution and don't pay hommage to those brave Polish heroes who gave their life to liberate our area.

>^..^<

M-G (all to help the British XXX Corps)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

Sorry boy, I'm not going to discuss with you anymore. There's no point.

>^..^<

M-G (no point)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


In Western Europe it's highly unusual. If you do such a thing as historian, you can be sure to be slapped around by the other historians in a debate that has sharks for breakfast.

The US doesn't have a history as such - at least not one that goes back 600 or 700 years where the white colonisation is concerned. However, there are indeed stories made up to confirm the US's national identity, "historical" stories like Rip VanWinkle. A complete fabrication only to serve the pride of America's past.

Edit: I'd better say: Rip Van Winkle is a fictious character that has become an icon in American history. That would be more correct.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

Unfortunately it is. Usually at historian's levels this is ignored and the discussion entered open minded, but in some countries, still struggling with their national identity it's very much an issue in all walks of life.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Haha, yeah right.


Ah, those darn foreigners again.


Welcome to the 21st century. These things are not important anymore in the big world out there.


Obviously not you. It's like talking to a 5-year old, but nevertheless I will give it one last shot. History is the discussions of several viewpoints towards a certain historical event. These viewpoints are exchanged and then eventually a common view will arise, a view that contains a bit of all the viewpoints mentioned before. Your truth is only your truth and it's not the complete truth as there are more truths. Wish you understood that, but like said, it's like talking to 5-year olds at times. Try reading other books than just ones from Polish historians and try to read all books with an open mind and the truth will come to you. This was my very last effort towards you - if you still don't get it, you will never get it.

>^..^<

M-G (ultimo)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Well, the Polish army was well equipped back then by the Western Allies and supervised by experienced French generals in order to fight the Bolsheviks, not a make-shift army like that of the Republic of Western Ukraine. Poles can say that they did it all on their own, but I would say it was mainly due to the help of friends that they could win the war against the RWU. I have yet to see them so successful if they hadn't been helped by the West.


Try for once in your life to win an argument without personal attacks and actually contributing to a discussion.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


No, only in Poland, right?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Just like in every country in the world.

>^..^<

M-G (lunch)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Of course not.


Do they need any provoking to post rubbish or insults or whatever?


See, Sobieski points out a good and true point and Iron gets defensive and insulting immediately. This is the same Ironside that starts crying immediately when you make a sarcastic remark. And you want to defend guys like that?


That is true and that is what I have been saying all along. But then I was burned yet again for being anti Polish. Plus there are more posters on here that give Poland a bad name to newcomers although they pretend to fight for the the name of Poland.

@sobieski
You know, for a Belgian you make pretty decent and good remarks. Too bad you hate all the Dutch :| But then again, nobody's perfect :)

M-G (hooray for Hollywood)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Maybe they wanted to be part of an independent Ukraine? An independent Ukraine including the Ukrainian territories occupied by Poland?


This sounds weird coming from sb who just told me to be humble. By revisionist bs'ers, I take it you aim at Sokidoki and Ironside? And besides, maybe you should try to add sth to this discussion instead of painting the atmosphere or giving evidence of your disliking of some posters? The latter is namely not really relevant to anybody or anything, you see.


Because of the original post or the changes Iron made to it when quoting it?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


You're sick.

Sad, adjusting my quote and changing it into sth completely different is just plain proof that you're not capable of discussing with me. Now, don't discuss with me anymore. You're not smart enough to do so. Goodbye Iron, sad little boy.

I've been patient with you enough.

>^..^<

M-G (Iron is a sad mofo)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


If I have to wait for your opinion, I can wait until I'm a 100 years old as you don't have seem to have any opinion about anything whatsoever, but instead lard any thread you participate in with personal remarks. And since I do at least an efford to contribute, your comment is, I would nearly say as usual, uncalled for.


Not necessarily losing, but he has succeeded in turning the whole topic upside down, turning it from Church destroying Poles into a discussion about murderous Ukrainian fascist organisations.


Yes - a lot of Poles seem to forget that the Ukrainians saw the Poles, like the Soviets as enemies. Also a reason why they thought the Nazis were their liberators; a notion they would quickly come to regret, but that's a besides. I know it's hard to imagine that anybody on this godforgotten planet saw the Poles as enemies, but the Ukrainians did. And they could bring up little love or sympathy for Polish policies aimed at the eradication of Ukrainian culture in the Ukrainian territories occupied by Poland. And then when the Polish govt had the guts to actually bring Polish settlers in an attempt to humiliate the original Ukrainian population even further, it didn't hit the good-will charts among the Ukrainians either.

Instead of focusing on all the terrible crimes that happened back and forth, it's imo better to look at the causes. If for example a piece of Polish territory gets occupied after a war and the occupier tries to equal it culturally with his own culture and send settlers in to make it even more his own, you would probably have no objection when bands of Poles would start killing those settlers.

Now, let's go back to the original topic at hand.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


The Polish view might need some adjusting here and there. But you're not, I can tell you that.


Thankfully I am neither.


Oh I am neutral. Neutral means you point out all sides good and bad of both sides. And I have pointed out quite a few times the wrong of Israeli politics. Neutral doesn't mean strict obedience to the Polish version of history, which you seem to adapt. But anyway, it's getting a bit boring - there is simply no decent discussing with you, so I will just stop doing so.

M-G (iron is boring)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Mengele wasn't the only one who performed those experiments. He was the most notorious, yes, but not the only one.


He mentioned that in regard to the Jews. And besides, who takes Iron seriously? :)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


I said the drawings were Disney-like in that sense that they are the typical propaganda drawings of the day with kiddos with angel-like faces, big blue eyes and so on, hanging on a door. It's sth different than pictures.


The exact number is not known, but it is estimated at a few hundreds of thousands. So, I wouldn't say it were very few.


If I am not impartial towards Jews, what does that make you towards Poles? Ah, completely neutral, impartial and honest? HAHAHAHAHA.


Most normal readers know that I am a credible person. The smart ones do.

Summum = latin and means the same as Summit, the utmost, the ultimate and so on.
(always glad to educate)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


No, indeed, you shouldn't. You think it's so much more fun to have your belly slit open without sedation and then they keep you alive, just to see how quickly the wound will fester? And that they will only keep you alive to see how much pain you can endure before you finally kick the bucket? And that, should you survive, they will kill you anyway? I would say practices like that are more than comparable to sawing a kid in two while it's still alive. The majority was gassed immediately, yes, but don't forget the hundreds of thousands that were used for "medical" experiments, the vast majority of them being children and twin-children.

But this is is not a dcik-measuring contest, this is just to say that I'm kinda used to see gruesome black and whit pics of mutilated ppl. Luckily they're not in colour for it would've been more direct, even more gruesome.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Not only because of the churches, also the forced Polonisation of the area, the surpressing of the Ukrainian language, the forced settlement of some 50.000 Poles and I am sure that there are more things.

And about the grossness of some of the pictures. One gets used to that after seeing hundreds of pics of piles of naked (Jewish) corpses in Auschwitz, Treblinka or wherever, equally tortured and cut in half or decapitated or whatever. There were also pics of horribly tortured and abuse children among them. So I'm not really shocked by them.


I know. Well at least we've reached the stage that Sokidoki actually admits that there were churches being destroyed by the Poles, whereas he earlier in the discussion even denied that. Perhaps after some more discussion he will admit the other things as well.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


They also destroyed them. And about that impaling and nailing kiddos to the door and the wall; I haven't seen any proof that this happened, besides the Disney-like drawings from some book you've shown us. Or better: a picture of an open book with a Disney-like drawing. But you have succeeded in your original aim, turning this around, shifting the blame and focus from bad Poles to bad Ukrainians. We're now talking solely about those bad Ukrainians and no longer about those bad Poles. You should congratulate yourself for that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)