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Posts by Tacitus  

Joined: 6 Jul 2017 / Male ♂
Warnings: 1 - Q
Last Post: 4 Jul 2025
Threads: Total: 2 / Live: 1 / Archived: 1
Posts: Total: 1382 / Live: 925 / Archived: 457

Displayed posts: 926 / page 3 of 31
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Tacitus   
7 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

and to accept that the effect of leaving that trade bloc hasn't made anything worse

I can accept anything if I see evidence that it is true.

The sources I provided you with clearly state the opposite. And they are not from the EU but the UK.

Tell us about this "suffering" you ate trying to pretend has occurred

British people are poorer and lost jobs and other opportunities due to Brexit. As such they suffering the consequences of Brexit. You can be in denial about that, but it is what it is.
Tacitus   
6 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

Well, we are talking about why people are voting for the AfD despite their obvious problems.

I pointed out that a similar movement is also gaining strength in the UK.

Some people just cling to their convictions and there is no arguing with them. That is the case in every country. I am sure there are specific examples of some buisness benefiting from Brexit, as shown in the link I provided, the overall picture is clearly negative. The City of London hasn't fared better either.

City of London chief says Brexit 'disaster' cost 40,000 finance jobs

uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/city-london-chief-says-brexit-082234030.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMFTaZr5njdVRWmfgSCAX3VeiL7jaQlgVNXH7dP5gEmtHyIpKD--Q5ghUuwk0cgNe_4KE3wtLdMLFjZCz6cX4OC5fdIlLpNZ6HABgDkvR_SEnKId9bhSASf8Y_OZ4nvYCHP1tq94WTD8z9eUgNpU96rB8a7c3VIUPzrrjt1K3ndV

And I dont even know where to begin with your weird ideas about nationalization. Trains are in many countries not in private hands and the EU has nonissue with it. So why bring it up? It wasn't the EU who forced the UK in all kinds of private-public partnerships and other weirdndeals.

Same thing trying to argue with AfD voters. You can bring up data and historical precent, but they don't care.
Tacitus   
6 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

The evidence is that the economy didn't crash, food didn't disappear from the shops,

The UK is today poorer than it would be if it had remained in the EU, with the Brexiteers promising the opposite. Even the city suffered unnecessary losses, If you want to pretend that Brexit was a success because it just diminished economic growth instead of outright crashing the economy, then so be it.

london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit

It is obvious that it was a poor decision with predictably negative consequences for both sides. It weakened the UK and the EU, and left both sides more vulnerable to hostile actors, be it Trump or Putin. A tragic mistake we all have to live with.
Tacitus   
6 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

What 'disaster'?? It's actually turned out rather well.

Defending everything your country against all evidence (and indeed the views of most British people at this point) did on principle is kinda boring. It is ok to admit that Brexit was a stupid decision. Something every expert warned about, yet people voted for it. If the AfD ends up elected, nobody will be able to complain that nobody had warned about them.

. For us, we won,

I just didn't want to compare the consequences of Brexit with a war. As bad as it turned out to be, the suffering is quite on a different scale. Maybe Suez would have been a better comparison? Though again people died there as well.

If the gov truly has nothing else but strong opinions about muslims

Calling migrants "Messermänner" seems more than a strong opinion to me.
Tacitus   
6 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

Not that much success since they've got 4% of local councillors and 0.8% of MPs.

Yet they riding high in the polls and had a remarkeable success in the local elections.

google.com/amp/s/bbc.com/news/articles/cp8jdr6ylzjo.amp

It is evident that Farage is benefiting from the unpopularity of both Labour and the Tories, quite like in Germany with the SPD and CDU losing votes to the AfD.

The man has been caught in many scandals, looked poorly in many public debates, and is with Brexit responsible for the biggest disaster in British history since WWII. It should be plain to see that this man should never have political power. Yet more and more people are considering to vote for him.

That is how the AfD looks like to many.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

What are people saying in the west and south of Germany about the votes in the northeast for AfD?

Problaby something similar to what many Brits are saying now while watching the success of Farage and his Reform party. Disbelief that people are voting for those politicians, coupled with the realization that this party now becoming a possible factor in their home towns.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

either you tell us where you are from and we ship you back there,

Doesn't really matter if those countries refuse to take them back in the first place.

"Hey Marocco, we'll dump some people who may or may not be your citizen in your desert". I am sure this would work well... .

Introduction of the law

What law?
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

so absolutely no need to treat him like one

There is a need if the third country refuses to take him back. Can't punish people because countries refuse to fullfill their legal obligations.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

.only the usual necessities (bed and food)

Not like Bürgergeld is that generous to begin with. It is already as low as the law permits. And it only applys for recognised refugees.

Follow our asylum law to the point at last

That hasn't worked so far, has it? If someone enters via Poland and Poland refuses to take him back, he has to apply for asylum here.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

As if they had here lived and worked their asses off for decades for this country

Again, people who worked for decades and became unemployed would be receiving Arbeitslosengeld I instead.

Bürgergeld is something everyone receives as long as he has a legal reason to stay in Germany. Including Germans who have never worked in their life.

Btw. the conclusion from your link: "Benefits not a 'pull factor'"
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

an easy point for any protester!

It is also easy to disprove. Refugees don't automatically get Bürgergeld and for that matter, someone who has worked for decades won't be getting Bürgergeld but the more generous Arbeitslosengeld I for up to two years.

Nobody has to starve

That is the consequence though.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

No other country goes to the same extremes

Our constitution and laws place a lot of importance on human dignity. Which is why leaving people to starve -whether they are refugees or Germans unwilling to work - is not something German courts go along easily.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

If one gov would dare to cut that out

There are legal limits to what extent those payments can be cut. Courts have made that abundantly clear.

But now Germany has gone broke

Lets' be real here. Refugees have created a lot of expenses during the last few years, but the problems with e.g. our pension systems are a few magnitudes larger.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

Why would you praise a book that inspired more deaths than Mein Kampf

Many people are still reading the Bible and the Quran even though some of there verses were used to justify violence and punishments we today find wrong.

Like executing supposed practitioners of magic.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

I'd argue the real lesson is that closing the borders is really not a good idea, because while it may reduce on some for some time, the countries benefiting from this may very well end up as the destination from the next refugee wave. It was easy for Poland to advocate closing the borders in 2015 since refugees were coming from the South. Who would have thought back then than millions of Ukrainians may one day be forced to flee. And who knows what else Putin has planned for the future.

Hopefully the new quota system will allow a fair distribution of refugees across the EU, thereby preventing some countries from being overwhelmed and allowing the integration efforts to be more succesful.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

It would require proof that they come from Poland

That is really not an issue if they are caught crossing from Slubice to Frankfurt. We are not just talking about refugees from the Middle East or Africa here, but also possibly from Ukraine, which is really where most refugees come from nowadays.

Otherwise, it is against the EU law

So Merkel was right then in 2015 that closing the borders against the will of the Austrians would have been in violation of EU law? I thought that closing the borders was what PiS demanded back then? So surely they would not mind it if Germany finally does what they advocated all along?

I suppose it is easier to advocate closing the borders as long as you are not the ones being stuck with all the refugees then.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

Should be interesting to see how Poland were to react if Merz actually orders that all refugee applications are to be rejected at the border and the people sent back to the safe country they came from.

And this is sad, since fascism exists whatever people call it.

As does Marxism. But I suspect few people who use that term know its' meaning.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

"Marxists" and "Fascists" really have become empty buzzwords nowadays.

But why would that not be "amplifying the resentment" ?

Because the new government will presumably be careful to target actual criminals and not imply that all incoming refugees are criminals with their rhetoric?
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

Did AfD create that

Did the Nazis create antisemitism or did they amplify an already existing hostility towards jews?

Violence and hostility against refugees is hardly something that only came up as a reaction towards "Talahons".

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenhagen_riots

Nobody claims that the AfD created those resentment. What is being alleged is that they may be amplifying it.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

If so, then how?

They are officially open towards qualified migrants and migrants from other EU countries (provided they work). Trouble is, if you are an African doctor, you don't have your job written on your head for everyone to see 24/7. So you are naturally affected by the negative attitude that may have been created by the AfD. Which btw is why the allegation that the AfD is deliberately creating such an atmosphere with their rhetoric is quite relevant.

There are already reports that regions where the AfD is strong are having trouble finding skilled migrant workers. Because really, if you have thr skills to work everywhere, why would you go to a region in a foreign country where the AfD is strong of all places.
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

namely was AfD "verboten"?

No. My response was to the question as to why there are no talks about banning the Left party as well.

Whether or not the AfD will be banned is up to the Constitutional Court. That Court has set a precedent that for a party to be banned, it not only needs to work against the constitution, but also have the size to realistically realize those ambitions in the future.
That is why banning the Neonazi party NPD failed, they were simply not big enough to pose a threat, even though they spelt out their program very clearly (which included btw regaining the former Eastern territories from Poland).
Tacitus   
5 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

.I hear nobody screaming for a "Verbot".

Because the Left is not strong enough to qualify for a Verbot. They are not polling at 25% at the federal level and at 40%+ in some states. Once they do we can talk about a Verbot. The Constitutional Court that a ban can only apply to a party that is so strong that it may have a shot at realizing its' unconstitutional goals. Hence any attempt to ban the Left party would be doomed to failure.

Nobody promoting hate

*Looks at all the propaganda painting West Germany as a fascist hellhole being led by politicians plotting the invasion of the GDR.

Ever heard of "Sudel-Ede" von Schnitzler, the state propagandist?

As host of Der Schwarze Kanal, which ran for 20 minutes every Monday night, Schnitzler edited together extracts of Western television footage and recorded caustic, virulently anti-Western commentary over it. The show was particularly derisive towards West Germany and what Schnitzler perceived as Western imperialism across the world. His vitriolic style earned him the nickname Sudel-Ede - roughly, "Besmirching Eddie"

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Eduard_von_Schnitzler
Tacitus   
3 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

...if THAT is truly the one main thing they have, any ban attempt will have no chance at all...

On the contrary. If confirmed those views may be in direct contradiction with several cornerstones of the German constitution, starting with article 1.

The issue here is not their criticism of islam, but that they are allegedly inciting hatred against all who follow the religion (or look like they do). Now where in our history has a political movement stoked hatred against a group of people that were seen as part of a religion?

To give you an example: You can criticize the Catholic church, e.g. their doctrine that prevents women from becoming priests and how they handled the child abuse scandals.

However if you make wildly exaggerated, insulting and false claims that e.g. "all Catholics are women-hating, child-raping devils who are destroying Germany and need to be deported to the Vatican" than you would likely find yourself in trouble with the law because you are defaming a whole group of people in a way that may incite violence against them.

That is why e.g. calling refugees "Messermänner"and other derogatory terms by the AfD turns up in the report by the Verfassungsschutz.

Whether or not those allegations are true will be left to the courts to decide.
Tacitus   
3 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

has nothing to do with undermining the democratic order of Germany, how could that be!

Using rhetoric to incite hatred against muslims and migrants and denying that German muslims are real Germans and question their citizenship however may very well be used against them in court. And my understanding is that there are plenty of examples for that by AfD politicians.

Abusing an offical, neutral governmental departement to get rid of your biggest political rival is!

All the Verfassungsschutz did was observing the AfD and collecting evidence. The AfD can now sue against the classification. If they lose, it is not because the Verfassungsschutz was abused, but because the evidence they built was so strong that it was deemed sufficient by an independent court. Again, the AfD are not victims here. The party chose a strategy that inevitably raises doubt about their loyaly to the German constitution.
Tacitus   
3 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

Thing is that is also such a blah-wishy-washy paragraph, free for the taking for every political uses!

That is why we have courts who decide what still follows the law and what does now.

Leftists love to call Rightists, or anybody not being left, as Nazis!

And rightists can sue again this description or e.g. fascist. Of course courts may also decide that based on public statements from the person in question, this may actual count as a factual description (e.g. Höcke).

and who decides which is an undemocratic party?

Ultimately this will be decided by the German Constitutional Court.

Before that another court will decide whether or not the recognition by the Verfassungsschutz is justified.

The AfD are not victims here. They just reap the consequences of their actions. There have been man voices even inside the party who have warned in the last few years that the party was attracting and promoting the wrong kind of people. Their two past leaders Petry and Meuthen wanted to against those extremists, but ended up disgraced and leaving the party.

And if that is not enough, every time the AfD gets a victory or some influence, they immediately use it to confirm those fears. That disgraceful performance by the senior president of the Landtag in Thuringia comes to mind.

And don't liking their opinions can never be a reason for a ban

True. And if the AfD is banned, it is not because the Court decides that they don't like their pension plan, but because they are found to be actively working against the democratic order of Germany.
Tacitus   
3 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

Blah! You can't ban feelings!

One can feels as much hatred as one wants. Inciting others however... .

That's the only thing what counts! Or else it's back to the DDR!

I am more concerned about not getting back to the Third Reich. That 2nd paragraph was added because the politicians who drafted the constitution had painfully learned that letting people spread lies and hatred can result in murderous consequences.
Tacitus   
3 May 2025
News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1303]

There is a thing called freedom of opinion

Basic law, article 5

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons and in the right to personal honour.

One such law is e.g. § 130 StGB (incitement to hatred, Holocaust denial and so on). This really shouldn't be news.

The Left is known to scream at Demos

Please don't make me defend the Left party, but which prominent Left party politician has made such statements?