History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

It's not a case of US/Western vs. 'foreign'-non-Western, press, but rather of truth vs. fiction.

I too am aware of local TV news distortions or omissions. No journal or report is immune from the influence of political bias. I read the Polish news on occasion in order to keep myself abreast of current events, and in the original Polish!! Do you read English so well that you can sense distortion in reportage??

Incidentally, the excerpts you've cleverly extracted are probably out of context. It is a known fact that Jewish anti-Christian sentiment, once more prevalent than it is now, was a direct result of centuries-old Christ-killer myths being disseminated across Europe and elsewhere. Everyone knows that the Romans wanted Christ killed. Pontius Pilate, by the way, was not Jewish. LOL

If your clippings are true, I'd be the first to say that wanton violence never justifies violence. Self defense though, is another thing entirely, hence, the need for context.

Arab anti-Jewish sentiment is merely based on incorrect readings of history, not to mention incorrect interpretations of the Koran, in which some see ALL outsiders as Infidels of Allah who must be destroyed. Enlightened minds, among them Muslim clerics, will gladly tell you that this is dangerous nonsense!!

Finally, the Jews have never had a deliberate policy of extermination of non-Jews. This can be confirmed in all sources as a matter of historical and public record.

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

The examples whom you've cited, Jukrek, suggests that your research is at best incomplete, at worst, horribly skewed! Aside from that, I fear you also misunderstood the expression 'a fool's paradise', then again, English is a second language for you, as, for that matter, Polish is for me.

In English, 'a fool's paradise' comes, I believe, from Milton's "Paradise Lost" and refers to Lucifer's fall from grace. Then again, it may refer to the imaginary Land of Cocknaigne, where noone has to work and red wine runs freely from the streams, cooked pheasant hangs from trees!

You mean, not that the Jews themselves were fools, but surely, that they foolishly deluded themselves into believing that any European country would be an eternal safe haven from anti-semitism.

The Turkish question is more complicated. There is again that 'little' issue of the still officially denied Massacre of the Armenians....solely because they were Christians who did not accept Islam. -:)-:)

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Southern,

Bigotry against one group is really bigotry against all groups!! -:)

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Jukrek,

In terms of raw population figures, there were physically more Jews living in what is today Poland than anywhere else in Europe, perhaps the rest of the world at the time, with the possible exception of Wilnus and Kowno in Lithuania.

The word 'paradise' poses problems. It suggests that, as in Weimar Germany during the 1920's, the Jews somehow were living in a perfect society; accepted, assimilated and compeltely without peril. The picture is rather, especially in Poland, that the Jews were living in a fool's paradise, mostly unassimilated, they were allowed to remain in Poland, in their crowded shtettls, because they were of monetary value to the Polish government. Indeed, they were numerous, yet there was ALWAYS the undercurrent of bigotry and hatred, same as everywhere in Europe, except perhaps for the Scandinavian countries, whose Jews were so few, or even Ireland!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

'Your stories about Jews are "charming", but they don't tell the whole picture...'

No, you're right, they don't. I forgot to mention that the thankless history of the Jews throughout much of world history has been one of tragic misunderstandings based on nothing other than unenlightened prejudice, much of which could have easily been avoided if only the Jews had been allowed a place alongside their non-Jewish, not necessarily Christian, brethren!

Only a dyed-in-the-wool idiot believes that any race or nationality is essentially bad! There are always reasons for the perceived behaviours of others, not the least of which are frequently, indeed usually, economic circumstances which motivate people's reactions, be they Poles, Russians, Germans, what have you.

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

As in 'Kommissar'??? LOL Good one, Osiol. -:)

By the by, I didn't mean to nitpick with my corrections. I only trust that the younger Poles out there are as intent on improving their English as we outsiders are on improving ,i.e. 'polishing', our Polish. that's all.

Na zdrowie, towaryszy!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

'Commies'?? Do you mean 'Communists' perhaps?? You've got the same problem as everyone else in Europe; you know the right slang, but not the correct standard! If anything, why not then 'pinko commies' while you're at it.-:)-:) LOL Incidentally, I'll correct other errors at a later time.

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Anti-semitism has deep roots in Poland's history. For example, in slang Polish, 'żydówka' means '*****' (kurwa), not only 'Jewess'.

'We have different history books in Poland.'...

...You sure do, namely,.......teaching wrong history!!-:)-:) LOL

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

It has little to do with the present day tensions concerning Turks who dwell in the Federal Republic of Germany along with other countries. It does though have a lot to do with a racist disguised as morally relativist slant these days which attempts to explain, indeed rationalize or justify, obscenely blatant acts of prejudice for which no reason could ever justify such actions!

Granted, most Poles, for that matter, Europeans, prior to the start of WW II were by and large lower middle class to poor. Jews however, owing to the deep anti-Jewish sentiment on the part of the Catholic Church in Europe, were not allowed for centuries to join guilds, become soldiers, own honest businesses, farm etc. compared to their gentile neighbors. The only recourse left to many, unfortunately, was money-lending, heretofore forbidden for Christians.

As a result, when Christians returned from wars and plagues had ravished their communities, those of the Jews were almost unscathed....because they lived in ghettoes, removed from the Christian centers, by local laws. And so they retained their properties when many gentiles had lost theirs, giving the false impression to the Christians that the Jews had somehow 'stolen' their lands, holdings etc.

Patently untrue, the image lasted.

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Sorry, Seanus. Can't quite catch your drift, I'm afraid. Are you suggesting that somehow the innocent slaughter of returning Jews to their Polish villages after the end of WW II was justified???!

I'm probably missing the point. Kindly illuminate.

PS
What d'you mean exactly by 'bad blood was still flowing'? The issue of Polish anti-semitism is cut and dried, as far as most people are concerned, save a few fringe loonies on the far right. Or are you simply peddling us this 'left-wing dominance' baloney!!!??

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Seanus,

Simply that while the European Shoah against, above all the Jews, was unparalleled in its systematic cruelty, such urges are hardly uniquely German.
Look at Poland, why don't you! The Kielce Pogroms occurred against Polish-Jewish citizens returning home to their villages AFTER the end of the War. They were massacred in the streets, practically.

Such atrocities never happened in Germany or even in Austria!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

I will freely admit to you that Germany, for that matter any European nation, is not the kind of 'Schmelztiegel' (melting pot) the US has become. Nonetheless, as Germany's past is particularly fraught with the pitfalls of mad plunges into racist savagery, she must be ever vigilant against this kind of xenophobia (Fremdenhass). We too are scarcely strangers to this sort of racism, though perhaps hardly as extreme in its manifestations (Hassausschreitungen).

Be mindful especially of the dangers in 'historical relativism' (Revisionismus). The Shoah was unique, albeit the potential for such Holocausts lies within all of us.

PS
'Advice' has no plural form in English. (he-he!) -:)-:) LOL

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Thanks, Bratwurst Boy!! -:)-:) LOL ......for nothing. Or I should add... 'Thanks for the flowers! (Danke fuer die Blumen!)

Of course I understand the kind of rot expressed in the prejudiced newspaper media!! 'Terror auf der Strassse...' but 'terror from whom'?? From the Skinhead sorts such as the type you seem to side with or from the reluctant bi-products (inner-city Turkish-Germans living as US blacks must have lived during the 70's here at home!) of a multi-cultural experiment gone bad? I agree. It's hard to live in a salad bowl.....but sometimes that's what's on the menu ..and if you don't eat it, (not necessarily like it..) you'll starve.

Just some advice!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

You may not believe in Judgement Day (Das Juengste Gericht), but one day, your intolerance will be your undoing (deine Intoleranz wird ja Folgen haben).

There's a theory that Nazism took root in Germany so easily, because Germany didn't have a solid grounding in the Judeo-Christian Ethic. Read Prof. Helmut Plessner's 'Die verspaetete Nation"' sometime.

Good Luck!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Quite sure you understand the meaning of 'bigotted', Bratwurst Boy?? -:) LOL = mit vorgefassten Meinungen, voller Vorurteile usw.

Indeed sir, your opinions are QUITE bigotted!!!
But then, 'To Each His Own.' (Jedem das Seine und Dir das Meiste)

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

'..hopefully, I can express my distaste......'

Na, hoffentlich nicht! Hopefully, you'll learn the errors in your extremely bigoted (kleinkarriert) thinking and express more enlightened views, in whatever language you happen to be using!! -:) LOL

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

'You got my point, didn't you?'....

Well Bratwurst Boy, I got the rough idea of what I think you wanted to put across, that is to say, in 'Basic English'. However, it may be 'fine' for you to continue posting on an international open forum in a language not your own, as millions of other Europeans do each day, but it can gently impede smooth and complete communication of the nuances in meaning which are usually failed to be expressed.

On that pleasant and peaceful note.... keep on practicing your English on our forums: Uebung macht den Meister!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Bratwurst Boy,

Regrettably we may not post in languages other than English in this forum, as I feel that you are at a serious disadvantage not being able to express your thoughts more cogently and convincingly in German. This though is frequently the case with many Europeans, particularly the younger set, who arrogantly believe their English level higher than it actually is. Might that be your case?

Examples. You were blissfully unaware of the difference between the words 'mead' (ein alchoholisches Getraenk waehrend des Mittelalters in England, das aus Hafergruetzen und Honig bestand) and 'meat'. Your grammar errors and almost compulsive explitives ('crap') etc. are a further indication of this.

You only make yourself look bad. Should you wish to continue this discussion thread more calmly in your native tongue and as the educated citizen I hope you are, my private e-mail is panlech31@yahoo Be advised though, I have a spam firewall and am not afraid to use it!!!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Mr. Cem Ozdemir, a German-born Turk, was a long-time representative (Abgeordneter) of your Parliament (Bundestag)! He seemed reasonably popular!

Back to the Turkey question. To be sure, Turkey's upcoming membership in the European Union may become a matter of both economic as well as sheer demographic necessity. As is already well known, Germany's birthrate has been on the decline for years! Your own Guenter Grass documented this fact in his bleakly humorous (galgenhumoristisch) "Die Deutschen sterben aus"!

Indeed, Turkey's advantages may well be a strong, numerous, business-savvy and multi-lingual workforce, a far cry from the poor, illiterate 'Fremdarbeiter' of decades earlier!!

Europe might in the end need Turkey a great deal MORE than Turkey needs Europe.

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Bratwurst,

ich bin Amerikaner deutsch-juedischer Abstammung, habe auch bis jetzt leider keinen Fuss in die Tuerkei gesetzt!

I'm a Yankee-'Cheese'-Doodle-Dandy and proud! -:)-:)!!!! LOL

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Perkovic,

I speak fluent Polish, not Croatian, I'm afraid. I realize my words might be getting 'lost in the translation', but I only wish to add that we in the US, while faced with similar hostilities towards Mexican day laborers, view the entire immgration issue as fundamentally economically, rather than ethnically, motivated!

If one sees, for instance, Puerto Ricans in our neighborhoods, we don't object to them, so long as they are middle-class citizens and are respectful of a different cultural background from ours.

In the same way, if millions of badly-behaved, beer-swilling gringos from Podunk, Iowa USA began storming the gates of Mexico, well then, WASPS would be equally demonized.

Remember, it's never the mere ethnicity, but the breeding!!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

"And this point about Turks, not Egypts..."

Du, in Englisch heissst es 'Egyptians'!! Du hast hier, glaube ich, aus dem Deutschen 'Aegypter' uebersetzt!

I believe you may have been translating from your native German here. -:)-:)

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

German anti-Turkish stereotypes notwithstanding, the Turks are of course considered the 'fertile crescent' (der Entstehungsort der abendlaendischen Kultur), indeed grouped as part of the great Empire builders of old!

Vor geraumer Zeit sei der Koenigliche Hof Konstantinoples einer der prunkhaftesten des Abendlandes. In days of old the Royal Court at Constantinople (later Istanbul) was said to be the most resplendent in all of Christendom. It is understood though, that Turkey was and remains a Muslim nation!! By 'Christendom', I actually meant 'the known world at that time'. Apologies for not being more precise! -:) LOL

As far as not knowing that the 'scharfe s' is still not used in Switzerland, you have but merely to crack open any book printed or published in Switzerland to see that this ligature is simply NOT used!

By the by, Bratwurst Boy, 'eating mead' is not a misspelling of 'meat'!!! Here, your English fails you momentarily. 'Mead' is the Old English word for the sort of gruel (porridge = Hafergruetze) people in England around the time of King John I used to eat, not 'meat' (Fleisch)

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

'dass' since the Spelling Reform, thank you!! In Switzerland, the 'sharp s' never existed.

Your English is rather passable. I was raised with German at home as well as English., so it'd better be excellent! What's your excuse?

Bartolome,

As I already posted, the 'esszet' never really existed in Switzerland, which therefore feels itself technically exempt from the rules of the German Spelling Reform (deutsche Rechtschreibereform), officially observed in Germany as well as Austria!

Incidentally, my remarks conerning Turkish 'superiority' were meant to include the ancients as a group, along with the Romans, Greeks, Chaldeans (the first astronomers and mathematicians!) and Egyptians.

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Bratwurst, is German your mother tongue?? Only one misspelling in my post ('das' instead of correct 'dass'!!-:) ), my sources indicate that civilization moved historcially in Europe from South on up North, rather than vice-versa. When the Turks were at the height of their Empire, you Northern Europeans were sitting around eating mead and throwing bones at one another!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

Hallo, Bratbursche!

Obwohl es stimmt, das 'kawa' keinen tuerkischen Ursprung hat, ist es wahr, dass die Tuerken den Europaeischen Hofadligen einen hoeheren Lebensstil verliehen hatten.

The Turks indeed endowed the European nobility with a higher standard of living!

History / What do Poles think about Turks? [761]

The Osman Empire and the Austro-Polish connection date back a ways, since the 17th century ay least, and so many of the daily amenities which Europeans simply take for granted, owe their existence in large part to Turkish culture, e.g. 'kawa' (coffee) which, of course, is of Turkish origin and a staple of almost everyone's day!

Even the very ritual of dining while seated or also reclining for pleasure is of Turkish origin, albeit the non-urban dwellers up until this day, may well eat seated on the floor rather than on chairs as is the Western tradition.

All of the above may already be common knowledge, yet given the nature of this topic post, I felt somehow that it bears repeating. -:)

Polonia / Polish workers in Denmark [41]

Hi there, Agata!

Allow me just a corrective "recast" of your English sentences:

'Where do you both who have Polish roots live in Denmark? I'm Polish but live in Scotland and will soon be moving to Ringsted in Denmark. If you need some Polish lessons, just give me a holler by e-mail.....'

Thanks, the help is appreciated. Where in Poland are you from? I'm from the States, but I lived for a summer in Denmark (I know Ringsted, in fact, there's a somewhat vulgar Danish pun connected with that city!!) and know Danish even more fluently than Polish, along with a few other languages. In Poland, I've only visited Szczecin.

Hope to hear from you again soon. (..and please don't think me rude that I offered to correct your English. -:) :) )

Polonia / Polish workers in Denmark [41]

Davs te' jer, Danske! Hvorfra kommer I saa? Og hvor laenge har I laert jer polsk?

Jeg er ikke polsk, men jeg boede nogle maaneder derover og kunne meget godt lide landskabet, isaer i sommertiden! 'Du danske sommer, jeg elsker dig'.

Danish or Polish are probably easier than English, but, our forum does insist on certain rules.

Jeg haaber, at kunne faa en hyggelig lille snak me' jer allesammen!

English only please unless in languages forum (even then only Polish) or off topic!

Language / Having a really hard time with Polish cases [59]

Hi,

For my two zloty, i.e. euros, worth, cases in any language are not transparent in the beginning to intermediate stages (just try German, for instance, much less Finnish or Hungarian, with respectively 32 such cases, on for size!!!).

Attempt instead to learn them in context. I don't know either your Polish level or your instructor's method, but I dare say, that just drilling cases all class long, is clearly drudgery and NOT the best way to do things. In the long run too, it is mostly likely not the most productive.

Admittedly, memorization/repetition, should be contextual, i.e. showing situations where, for example the instrumental vs. the dative case are used, rather than merely through dry charts or tables. The latter is a supplement rather than a subsitute, for more use-friendly learning.

Marek