News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

I doubt that will happen!

My guess is that the initiative will come from, or at least be strongly supported by, Washington. And it will all be part of NATO.

First there will be more maneuvers and excercises in Europe....with mainly european NATO members...under european leadership. The US will support that, since they will profit from a more and better working european branch of NATO, since their future attention is no longer on Europe but on Asia.

From that there will more and more common buildups....soldiers training together....shared bases....it will be something natural, organical....nothing forced.

Of course you can only share something which you already have, so the existence of independent armies is not questioned at all. To grow together into a common army will need time and a strong common enemy!

But yes, shared hardware, soldiers training together on it, soldiers from different countries stationed together, preparing to fight the same threat....it will be a common army long before the populaces gets a name for it! :)

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Why the heck?

Imagine the US states Ilinois and Indiana (examples shamelessly stolen from Novi) would compete with their militaries....instead of sharing the costs and getting the best the US can develop and produce elsewhere, not necessarily in Illinois or Indiana....logical, cheaper and just better than competing with each other, right? After all they will never go to war with each other ever again, but defend each other against outward threats. JUST LIKE THE EU COUNTRIES!

We really should agree to disagree here, I believe that has to do with you being a Brit....but you also have to accept that many mainland Europeans, so close to each other, not on an Island, will see things differently.

Agreed?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


You had this nasty civil war....


No disagreement here....I guess that's how NATO works too....even between the Turks and the Greeks! :)


Which ones?

Again....that would be another argument for a common army....no stupid competing between allied neighbours anymore....only the best of the best for all members! :)

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Of course....everything else would be to embarrassing!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Would you support the buildup of a common EU-army?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Yeah...what's there to discuss anymore? The Poles themselves don't seem interested much....the Germans on this board more so! :)

Not to mention that a buildup of the polish army doesn't happen in a vacuum but is rather a reaction to the real weakness of our continental armies...which brings us back to the other topic....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

.....you think an Euroarmy is Macron's dream?

Did he ever say so??

If so, our Franco-German brigade would be the perfect start....but it led to nothing!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

These translators are great, aren't they! :)

Yes....also the image of our army has become a boost since Russia invaded Ukraine....Pistorius has become one of our most popular politicians, as Defense minister!!! When did that ever happen in after-war-Germany??? :)

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

I don't trust Scholz....but our new Minister of Defense, Boris Pistorius, seems to take his new job seriously....I would trust him!

The Bundeswehr has become an inefficient colossus....with to many bureaucrats feeding on it and to few soldiers actually working for it...rotting from the head. This is where Pistorius is already changing alot.

An interesting article...


kreiszeitung.de/politik/pistorius-verteidigungsministerium-historischer-personal-umbau-bundeswehr-boris-92189297.html

But it's only a start.....there are personal problems you can't solve with money! It will take time to rebuild what was left rotting for the last 20 years...

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


???

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Yeah....well....if not Trump....then there will be always someone else.....it's a valuable election fight argument....you can even see it here on PF with commenters from the US....they are sick of defending us....spending good Dollars and risking the lifes of US boys for us....and understandably so!

The bigger the conflicts the louder that will get.....


I'm an Ossi (you asked)....I learned the russian language in school, english came much later....most is learned by reading international poster, so... :)

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

....I don't follow the USian election fight that closely....

But the demands from Washington that the Europeans should take over a bigger share of their own defense isn't new!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

...okay...then not Trump....whats the other? DeSantis?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

.....the next Trump might promise his voters to let those freeloading Europeans to fend for themselves and save lotsa money!

And remember the neighbourly frowning as the german Chancellor promised to beef up the Bundeswehr in the face of the russian threat again? Neighbours who like their Germans militarily weak as a kitten quite well!

With a common army all that would no longer pose a problem....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


That's another thing...."Five Eyes" is only for english language members....curious, isn't it.....

I see a future EU army as part of NATO....a branch if you so want....and why the hell not. It won't threaten the status of UK as US' bestie...:) But I could imagine the US quite glad about it...they are thoroughly sick of defending Europe!

Good night

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


The EU has 27 members....members which are sharing alot with each other....who are about to unify their economies....twenty of them even share the same currency....with effectively open borders....and with Brussels even a kind of a capital....all markers of an independent nation....lets add to that a common military...sharing the costs so that every country will profit from it....


Thing is as the Ukraine crisis has shown, Europe right now is unable to defend itself and dependent on the US = this status quo is anything but successful, we have to change things!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


....effectively what?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


I told you why.....I have no idea!

But why are you so against a common EU army? UK won't be forced into anything at all....


....and how it works....without belonging to one country....but many different members with surely different shares and yes, even percentages....some of it's members can't even stand each other...

Why not the EU too?

It would surely take some of the defense burden off the USian shoulders...what's so bad about it?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

I see the soon-to-be-starting NATO excercise "Air Defender" as good way how a common european army would look and work like....

So much better as so many armies besides each other....that makes no sense!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


....and still NATO exists....


I dunno what you want from me....the exact plan??? :)

I guess in the beginning there will be different parts, the sharing will be varied, after the possibilities of a country....how should I know. I wouldn't be to surprised if a closer cooperation between european countries is already happening inside NATO....especially regarding Poland, which has become a frontline state once again!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

Maybe it's different for continental Europeans than for UKians?

Otherwise for what else would you want to devote your army to if not for the defense of your own country, for Europe?

For the rules....well....NATO has a two percent rule.....and the EU is working with lotsa more rules....I don't think a common army is more complicated to build than the EU! :)

Especially not as we have NATO to learn how it works....


Well....here in PF the discussions are always hot underway when the armies of different countries are the topic....and some countries seen as "shirker"....even this thread is about Poland maybe beefing up its army....and if other countries shouldn't better follow...

Every country for it's own is for mainland Europe just not the best and frankly not needed anymore....is that so hard to accept for an UKian?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

I don't understand what you mean....the costs and burden will be shared....with the promise that this army will be used where it is needed....you mean?

Everybody....just look at a map of Europe....all these borders....so many countries.....even if so many countries have open borders, exchanging peacefully people and goods....but so many armies side by side are still needed? Mak sense? Are the best solution???

Nope!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

I will think some more on the finer details! :)

But I guess what happens now with Europe as consequence of the Ukraine war...and what happens inside NATO because of this...will be quite the game changer....we will see what happens in the next few years.

When the Ukraine crisis is over China is waiting....we will have to bring more to the table as we can now.

And it will always make much more sense to fund a common army than every country having to shoulder their own burden alone....we could achieve so much more, so much bigger than every country for its own!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

We have a gazillion armies in mainland Europe....armies are expensive....we have better armies and worse armies....modern armies and not so modern armies....where is the sense in that as everybody knows we, who are most members in the EU AND also in NATO, will never fight each other ever again....but we still live in a world of enemies!

It makes much more sense to share the burden and build up one most modern army with much less...something everybody can take part in and profit from!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Every NATO excercise shows that it works and how it works.....every excercise has to have logistics and a command structure, a common language....where is the problem?


I mean something like NATO, just for mainland Europe, the EU.....

We would still be NATO....that would be the global "mother" if you so want....but we need to find a solution for mainland Europe!

Again....every european country maintaining it's own expensive army makes no sense anylonger! Not when we in the EU sharing so much in the meantime, have grown so close!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


...isn't that a common army already? They complement each other, build on different traditional strengths but still work together...these international NATO excercises show that it works...

Mainland Europe doesn't need so many different armies anymore....and nobody would need to feel threatened by a beefed up german military anymore!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


There isn't?

We wouldn't need to discuss who beefs up how much.....all would chip in, the burden would be shared.....it would cost each partner alot less to co-own the most modern army.

Actually the other possibility, many beefed up, expensive armies side by side so close in Europe makes no sense anylonger.....


That's why I was talking about an EU-army....and the EU for sure is a unig, a union and an alliance!

It makes sense to add a military option to the close economical and political cooperation, the open borders, the advanced unification....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


We could end that old rivalry with a common army.....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Poland would be ideal to shake things up....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

....it's also better for the image of such a newly build unified army....if it's NOT seen as a german project....someone of the newer members, not especially of the old core...

The unifying effect will be alot greater!

We have some kind of german-french military already (a brigade)....it plays no role whatsoever, and it surely wasn't the starting point for the buildup of a new EU-Army.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade