News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


Because i haven't, but without the unity under Solidarity it was highly unlikely the government would have made the concessions it made.

In 80 or 81 the gov was trying to put a wedge between the different industry workers and negotiate relatively meaningless wage increases, e.g. separately negotiating with the strikers in the shipyard and truck factory, etc., correct? It wasn't until all (or, at least, most) of the strikers at different industries demanded the 21 demands as a unified voice did you see the gov willingly, although not in total good faith, start to consider more meaningful demands, correct?

If there wasn't the solidarity under Solidarity, the opposition to the gov would've been markedly weaker and impotent.

Again, I don't refute there was violence on the part of protesters, but it wasn't widespread and sustained and not significant enough to bring the commies to the table. If there's proof that the Solidarity leadership called for or condoned it, I'm unaware of it.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


But annoyance doesn't mean violence. It overwhelmingly meant strikes and protests, yes? I'm not trying to refute there wasn't any violence, but it was typically, if not always, started by the authorities (what were the security police called back then?), which matters because it shows that demonstrations were peaceful --demonstrators only reacted violently when provoked. And, that's been my point all along, the Solidarity movement was a peaceful movement and its demands were met because of non-violent pressures, not violent ones.


Apparently they did, as they kept propagandizing that evil foreign forces were trying to expand their activities against the state and stuff like that.


That certainly helps, but there still needs to be some legitimacy (granted this legitimacy is typically gained by brainwashing through the education systems and cultural institutions).

That book you recommended is it in English, also. My feeble mind struggles mightily with learning the Polish language.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

The importance of it all would be to highlight that violence was or was not an effective and important tactic or response to drive the communists to negotiate. If violence against communist authorities was not widespread and sustained (as I understand, it wasn't widespread and sustained, but rare and unsustained), it would not have much if any effect. If it was more common and sustained, it would give the government a reason to negotiate, if for no other reason than keep the Soviets from intervening--something they were prepared to do in 80/81.

You're right, I don't have the experience of living under the regime. My wife and in-laws did, though. So, I know of their experiences. Although, those experiences don't tell me anything about whether or not violent action against the communist regime played a part in the government negotiating with Solidarity.

Didn't you say the Belarussians were being too soft with peaceful demonstrations? Or was that Crow? I get you two confused sometimes; my apologies if you didn't say it.

We agree that communists didn't have patriotic feelings for Poland or cared for the plight of common Polish people, but only cared about power. But, their power depended on what the future of Poland would be--economics plays a central role in that future and a failing economy has a way of putting a regimes power in a precarious position (the uprisings in the 70's and 80 began over food price increases, right?). And, of course they cared what the opinions of the people were, why do you think they had a propaganda division within the government and a tight grip on media?


Well, yeah, but you seem like a guy who has a punch two guys in the face per day quota. :):) What do you think the chances of a Polish victory would've been? And, wouldn't it have been the Polish commies fighting the Soviet commies? However you slice it, you're left with commies.


How? Besides, Pawian says they weren't that damned peaceful anyhow.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


You just obliterated the study of history. Hahahahaha!!!!!


But how much of the violence was begun by protesters? How often did the protesters react violently to government crackdowns? And, how long was the violent reaction of the protesters sustained?


Urban's "admission" is something to consider and may lead to revising my understanding, but, as a general rule, it's best to heavily scrutinize a professional propagandist. Even if it played a part in the Communists decision the violence was a product of economic and political pressures.

Even though there were some elements within Solidarity (including Church clergy) who wanted to employ violent tactics to confront the government, they didn't gain much influence. Solidarity was a non-violent movement.

My position still remains that the Communists were driven to The Round Table because they knew the fragile Polish economy could not sustain more strikes and lack of production and that the unified voice of the Polish people was an undeniable sign that the political legitimacy of the regime was severely compromised. I wouldn't be surprised that the fear of a violent reprisal was present within the regime, but it wasn't violent protests that drove them to negotiations.


Hold the phone! But, isn't that what you're calling for in Belarus?

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


Yes, it is. But, again, it's not what brought the regime to the negotiation table. If there is evidence that the communist regime wanted to make some concessions with Solidarity because of the violent protests, I'm unaware of it and would be happy to see it.


economic pressures, and political pressures from the multiplying voices of Polish citizens demanding change). You left the remainder of sentence out.

I appreciate and respect the civil suggestion of an compromise, but it wouldn't be accurate. :)

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


I never said it was the only thing that contributed to the fall of communism; I also never said there were never violent confrontations--only that it was the violent confrontations that drove the communists to the negotiating table. Again, was the violence perpetuated by the protesters or the police?

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


EU is not the Church, it pretty much acknowledged it doesn't care to officially recognize its Christian heritage. It's a thoroughgoing secular construct. So, it can't offer a higher truth, only things like policies, laws, and enforcement.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


Hahahaha...maybe where you live; which I imagine is a place of colorful adventure--mostly psychedelic. :)


Because it's truth and universal, it's for all of us, even the locals.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


I think you're on to something. :)


No, they are not. Churches are not concerned with controlling governments, but primarily with spreading the Gospel. Churches do want to inform governments of the dignity of the human person and morality, but its by proposition--not legal mandates. Churches, in general, are part of local cultures--they respect and add to the development of local cultures--they don't promote a global unitarian politic, but a universal truth that informs local cultures. They are constructs where the natural world weaves into the supernatural.

Life / Owning a house in true countryside of Poland - stories [692]


Do the branches have any black dots?

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

@ Crow

Poland, freely choose to enter the EU, did it not?


Wasn't there a recent Pew survey that showed something like 75% of Poles had a favorable opinion of the EU? I don't know whether that's accurate or not, but I'm willing to bet neither do you. I strongly dislike supranational government constructs and all that, but Poland wasn't bribed or put under any type of duress to enter the EU. It did it under its own free volition.

Besides, what would a Visegrad union give Poland that would match or be better than what the EU gives it? I mean, other than a slavic boner.


Hahahaha!!!! Isn't that rich?! Maybe the Kremlin has been following PF and has seen your call to a violent uprising.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


*nods

The West was more confident in its heritage, institutions, and values back then, but there were some signs of erosion.


How do you define free? Seems like you define free as something that must fit into your personal beliefs...seems kind of tyrannical.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

@ Pawian

Let me clarify: back in 1980, who would've dreamed Poland would be free by 1989? Not too many.

Those pictures of violence in the street in Poland, was the violence perpetuated by the demonstrators or the police?

Most importantly, the communist regime in Poland did not fall because of violent protests, but through more peaceful means (strikes, economic pressures, and political pressures from the multiplying voices of Polish citizens demanding change). Belarus may finally be gathering the multitude of voices to apply the political pressure it needs to get rid of it tyrant--but, it ain't gonna be easy, and I doubt it'll be successful if it becomes violent.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

But, they may very well abolish themselves with violent demos. Regime change can come through peaceful demos--just look at your country. Who would've thought Poland would be free in 1980?

I'd also think Poland would not want 2 hot civil wars going at its border.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

You recommending they start violently demonstrating?

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


That's kind of the point,. 30 years ago, the mainstream media had a lot less competition in what information was being fed to the mainstream population. Ergo, a lot less reason for the mainstream population to distrust the mainstream media. Nowadays, mainstream media has a wide-range of alternative outlets questioning what they report or reporting something different from what's found in mainstream outlets.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

That creation of information oftentimes fills in the holes or provides an opposing angle of the mainstream media. A great thing, IMO.


I wonder if that majority is as big as it was 20-30 years ago.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


But, that's what makes them so dangerous. A rat is most aggressive when cornered. History has plenty examples of cornered rats causing a dustup that wasn't in their best interests. Best to keep reminding the rat of the danger its in and how it could get worse. Worse thing you can do is ignore the rat, IMO.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

@Crow

Uhhh...well, you definitely get points for thinking outside the box.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


And, that's the point of concern. If Russia did intervene, they wouldn't do it for free. They'd make demands that would help further their desire for regional supremacy. Belarus would (if Russia desired) become the launching pad to attempt to invoke some kind of turmoil in Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, and/or Latvia. So, it'd seem that it is something Poland should be concerned about and prepare some kind of deterrent or response. I wouldn't over-react but I sure as hell wouldn't be cavalier about it either.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


That's a good question. If they do, then we got two Russian military actions going on at the doorstep of Poland and the EU, and this one would be at the invitation of the Belrussian gov. One would think such friendliness would allow Russian operatives to roam anywhere in Belarus, even, say ,at the Polish border--might even take a day trip across the border.


Canada also has officially refused to recognize and the US has said it wasn't a free and fair election, so pressure is mounting. I don't see Lukashenko ceding power, so that Russian support looms even larger day by day.


But, what about Russian inetrvention within Belarus? Wouldn't that change the equation for Poland? If so, then Belarus is worthy of a solution now so as to blunt any such intervention from happening in the (near) future wouldn't you say?

Study / School meals in Poland [145]


You ever think it might be because the idiot was traumatized by teachers when she was a kid and its her way of getting back at those bastard teachers?

What's more harrowing for a teacher than a room full of sugared up little brats? Sweet revenge is what she's thinking.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]


How's that? I don't speak Polish, but my wife does and she tells me this guy is articulate, courageous, and very smart. Speaks to the Polish soul.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]


That should've said: That's the opposition's goal: to get people to think exactly that.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]


I wouldn't say that. I understand you, I just think you're wrong.


And, that's the opposition's goal. They succeeded with you.


Absolutely! Good luck in your ventures.

I'm just throwing this out there, but if you're interested in reading some political philosophy that touches on this thread of thinking, you might give Friedrich Hayek's "The Constitution of Liberty" a look-see. Churchill had a good amount to say about it, too.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]

Do you seriously believe politicians put forward bills for a vote on the floor of parliament without knowing if they have the votes or not?


Well, a glaring example of how it worked in history is the defeat of communism. It wasn't simply economic pressures that made it unravel, but, also, the movement of the people (especially in Poland) demanding fundamental human rights that shaked loose the tyranny of communist oppression.

You seem to think putting forward honest proposals is a sign of weakness, but there's nothing more powerful and lethal, and most importantly, enduring. Fighting back with truth isn't slapping PiS with velvet gloves, but a bare knuckle right cross.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]


The irony of those two sentences. Hahaha!


If what Torq wrote is true in post #360 (and Torq has never given me reason to accept what he says as anything but true), then it's completely dirty:

Well, the money was supposed to go to TVP, and then opposition proposed a bill that would redirect the money to cancer patients (a nice trick). Of course, the parliament rejected the opposition's proposal (as was easy to predict), and the president signed the earlier bill, giving the money to TVP. A little bit of demagoguery and half of Poland thinks that Duda took away the money from cancer patients and gave it to PiS's propaganda tube.

If the money was already earmarked to go to TVP (which may very well be a propaganda machine for PiS), then the opposition makes a proposal to redirect that money to a cause everyone would support, and the majority of parliament is controled by PiS--the opposition knows damn well their proposal will not pass. The opposition knew it would never pass as it was crafting the bill. It proposes the bill for a vote not so it gets passed, but to form a public narrative that PiS does not care about cancer patients. I'm sure PiS politicians care as much about cancer patients as does the opposition.

So, it's dirty and untruthful. It is a tactic meant to deceive people into thinking a certain group is something it is not--in this case, PiS is anti-cancer patient. This type of thing only breeds derision and a breakdown of communication within government. PiS may do the very same things, but the elixir is to combat their deceit with honest proposals and fight them with truth--that's if you want a healthy democracy that will endure.

This deceit and dishonesty is the reason the west has been awash in populist movements. The population is sick and tired of politicians lying to them. They're sick and tired of being used so an elite group can advance their lust for power. They're sick and tired of their representatives not representing their interests.


Using that logic, the government shouldn't finance anything until people stop dying from cancer. To use that argument, every expenditure is a scapegoat. Hell, if I was to employ your logic, if I was PiS, I would have countered the opposition with proposing to defund every non-critical program the opposition supports to put toward cancer treatment. I'd play the game out to its logical end. But, then, you'd have a breakdown of a functional government.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]


But, this tactic could backfire, as voters might be turned off by it and could lead to her party losing seats in the Sejm, no?


Why, if she is as silent as everyone is saying? If she was out there promoting a political idea or agenda, It'd make sense, but if she's not, it seems to cross a line, IMO

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]


Thank you very much. That's very kind of you!


A lot.

I'm neither pro- nor anti-PiS. My comments have really nothing to do with PiS or its opposition. I have no partisan axe to grind in Polish politics--I'm not Polish, I have no dog in this fight.

At the very root of democratic governance is consent. The people give their consent to be governed by representatives they choose. In order for people to give their consent they must know what they are consenting to--in other words people need to make a choice. How do you make good choices? By weighing the facts before you. In order to do that well, you need honest facts.

Churchill described parliamentary government as governance by talking--he liked to point out the opposite of that is governance by force. When both sides "talk" in lies, that doesn't promote a government done through talking, because it creates suspicion, distrust, and, ultimately, it leads to a break down of talking, because no one believes what is being said. Then you're at a precarious moment, a moment that can easily tip toward force--then, you no longer have a democracy, but the tyranny of force.

So, your thought that deceitful and dirty tactics used as a way to fight back against PiS's deceitful and dirty tactics are virtues of democracy is, well, naive.

The way you fight back is by arguing against PiS with truth, not dirt.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]

Delph says it's a masterstroke. How so, Delph? If what Spuke is saying is accurate and Duda's wife doesn't get involved publicly and she isn't on the ballot, how is she relevant? It seems pretty petty and desperate, not masterly.