Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]

Some English speakers telling Polish speakers how to talk do not constitute "global influence". Sorry to burst your bubble there. As soon as Anglophone media finally stop saying "Polish concentration camps", I'll be willing to discuss linguistic progress and the positive aspects of external cultural influence with you.

BTW, this is not really a conversation I'm having here; while I quote dictionaries and other valid sources, and explain things, and present my case, and ask you questions, all you ever do is repeat like a parrot: "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated".

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


"External cultural influence" =/= "authoritatively telling native speakers how to use their language". That would be cultural imperialism, I'm afraid...

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]

Funny thing is how it's always a foreigner's sensitivity against the normal language use of a native speaker here. Do you not believe Słownik Języka Polskiego? Also, being "older" or not a "resident of the capital" are not in any way markers of poor language skills. You are being both ageist and provincialist when you say that! ;-)

The meaning of the words Mulat and Murzyn have not changed; it is people like you who are desperately trying to change it as quickly as possible, because you are unable to look at some Polish words without seeing them through the tinted glasses of your Anglophone perception, if you will. Your understanding is skewed however much you try to convince native speakers that their understanding of these words is "wrong" and needs to be "rectified".

Well, I hate the way most Americans used the word "race" and "racial" all the time; I find terms such as "biracial" or "mixed-race" extremely offensive, and I think you should stop using them because they have been forever tainted by the Nazi Master Race theory:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race#Eugenics

I think my claim is quite legitimate and I will now start a campaign to change the way Americans use their language in their own country.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


The person in question WAS being polite. He was speaking HIS native language in its own historical and linguistic context, and using a perfectly appropriate word. How could he have known all the possible associations of the word as used in other countries? For the Polish speaker, a "mulat" is simply someone of mixed black and white parentage: sjp.pl/mulat

(as you can see, the Dictionary of Polish Language does not even list any slangy or derogatory meanings of this word, as it is too high-brow in Polish to have any).

Wiki says this on the subject: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulatto

A relevant quote:
"Contemporary usage of the term is generally confined to situations in which the term is considered relevant in a historical context, as now most people of mixed white and black ancestry rarely choose to self-identify as mulatto.[2]

The term is generally considered archaic by some and inadvertently derogatory, especially in the African-American community. The term is widely used in Latin America and Caribbean usually without suggesting any insult. Accepted modern terms in the United States include "multiracial", "mixed" and "biracial". (Highlighting mine).

1) A large part of the world (Latin America and the Caribbean) seem to have no issues with "Mulatto", from where this term was probably borrowed into Polish in the first place;

2) Polish people do not live in the United States, and do not speak English, but Polish;
3) For Polish speakers, terms such as "multiracial", "mixed", or "biracial" smack of Nazi terminology, with which we have had the occasion to acquaint ourselves in practice; I wonder whether English speakers ever think of this when they use words like that in Polish? In other words, are they in doubt and do they choose to be polite? I doubt it.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]

Those of you who aren't Polish should not talk about "Murzyn". You are clueless as to how neutral that word is.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]

I'm not turning back the tide of time, it's them pushing it "forward" - or rather sideways IMO ;-)

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


Yes, I do know that. I also know that left to its own devices, the Polish language would NOT suddenly veer away from Murzyn, or start using words like "ministra"; there is a group of people out there with an agenda to introduce feminist-friendly, politically correct jargon into Polish; mostly young, educated graduates of women's studies, psychology, sociology, and other soft sciences whose heads have been totally turned by the pseudo-intellectual mumbo-jumbo produced by some in the fabled "West."


warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1,34889,8000180,Afrykanin_to_nie_Murzyn__Jak_mowic__by_nie_obrazac.html

I asked you once already, but you didn't reply - I'm really curious what you think of campaigns such as this:
banbossy.com

People are interfering with the language big time, and for no apparent reason except their naive belief that if you change a word, or ban it, the associated problems will go away. This is magical thinking, pure and simple.

Even if Polish people finally begin to believe that Murzyn is racist and they should use whatever word instead, do you think there will be less racism overall in Poland? Paradoxically, once the neutral Murzyn is taken away, the void might actually be filled with more slurs like czarnuch or asfalt.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


Well, one is now being labelled "racist" (Murzyn) and the other is being promoted as appropriate (czarnoskóry) by the forward-thinking brigade.
So obviously I'm curious why one would have been chosen over the other.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]

Well, what is so positive about "czarnoskóry" and so negative about "Murzyn"?

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redskin_%28slang%29

They are probably fighting a losing battle.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


No, not all Poles speak perfect Polish, but when they are semi-literate or stupid, they make mistakes typical for native speakers, they might spell "dżewo" instead of "drzewo" for example, but not mistake a "na + noun" structure with a "do + noun" structure.


I never said that. They do that, a lot, e.g. "Żydzi do gazu", "Biała siła", why not? I just haven't seen that much graffiti employing the word "Murzyn" as it's not generally perceived as pejorative, esp. not in the less educated circles of society. I asked for pictures of graffiti and got one, plus info about "Murzyny do drewa" which is definitely not a native Polish effort.

I have never said anywhere that Polish people are never racist. I have, on the other hand, claimed that the word "Murzyn" is not racist. Of course, with time and patience, the "progressive" element of Polish society will force us to accept that it is now officially racist, and make us replace it with some monstrosity such as "czarnoskóry" ("Blackskin") which, when we compare it with "Redskin" which has been banned as racist, does not sound all that great either, does it?

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


Warsaw is a multicultural city. My suspicion is that another nationality has started learning Polish and giving vent to their racism this way.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


I'm "fixating" on it because it's an impossible sentence. It's not semi-literate; it's simply not Polish, not even if you stretch your imagination and good will to the limit.

The only person who could have written it, or who could think it could be understood as Polish, is a non-native learner. End of story.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


"Murzyny do drewa" written by a native Polish speaker is about as plausible as a native English speaker writing "set" instead of "sad" or "he's under the pub" instead of "he's down the pub".

These are not mistakes, these are errors, i.e. constructions which are not used by native speakers, no matter how intelligent or educated they are (or aren't).


You are probably thinking of lynching and hanging: sorry to disappoint you, but the Polish "na drzewo", which BTW is not used exclusively towards black-skinned persons, is also racist (though not always, you can say it to anyone, also to people of your own ethnicity) and rude, but not to the same dramatic extent, i.e. it means "go back to the tree (and sit on it) like the monkey you are".

riposty.cba.pl/?qa=1219/wracaj-na-drzewo-doko%C5%84czy%C4%87-ewolucje

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]

well, I doubt any native Polish speaker would write "Murzyny do drewa" considering the fact that neither the grammatical construction itself nor the word "drewo" exist in Polish.

Even if someone correctly wrote "do drzewa" or "do drewna" it would not mean that they are sending anyone up a tree, but merely that they are pointing them in the direction of either a tree (presumably to sit under it) or to a piece of wood. Makes absolutely no sense either way. And is not insulting either. The only insulting form would be "na drzewo / drzewa".

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


Well, it could NOT have been written by a native speaker of Polish, I'm afraid. Maybe some immigrant of other nationality was trying to express their feelings then.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]

That's a very naive outlook. There are large areas of Poland which are pretty much going their own way(s) and do not stress overmuch about the Capital City, or might even be slightly hostile towards it.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


I am not saying a foreigner wrote such graffiti. I am saying that a foreigner quoted it, and their mistake shows that their command of Polish is rather sketchy - which means that many nuances of the language probably evade them.

Or, possibly, the foreigner who quoted it actually made it up in the first place.


Of course they are. But even the stupidest native speaker of Polish would never say 'Murzyny do drewa'. Try to guess why. There are actually TWO very serious grammatical errors (not mistakes) in this very short sentence. And "Murzyny", though not a literary form of the word, is not one of them.


...so, these areas encompass Poland for you? Congratulations. ;-)

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


I would guess so.

BTW, thanks for the pic. There is a Brazilian player in Korona Kielce, it seems, and some fans don't want him for some reason. In this case, they are calling him Murzyn because of his darker skin, not because of his ethnicity. Someone picked the word "Murzyn" because it rhymes and conveys the meaning that the "poet" wanted to convey (we don't want the dark guy on our team). Unfortunately, you cannot forbid anyone to use any word, including neutral or positive terms, in a negative context.


I hate to nitpick, but that's not Polish, not even slang Polish or uneducated Polish. So maybe, if you make mistakes like this when quoting graffiti, your command of Polish is not that great after all, and some nuances might escape you?

Speaking of introducing language change, what do you think of this:

banbossy.com

Do you think this is a legitimate process?

I don't.

Language / IS "MURZYN" word RACIST? [686]


I would like to see pics of graffiti with "Murzyn" used. I wonder why this word would be used when much "better" (irony alert!) alternatives such as "czarnuch" or "asfalt" are readily available?

I have seen so-called Canadian graffiti with texts such as "Your Mom is a nice lady" or "Sorry about your wall" - using "Murzyn" would give much the same effect in Polish.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czarna_rasa_cz%C5%82owieka#Nazwy

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Yeah, but they are perceived as archaic or "literary".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_conjugation#Transgressives

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

We were discussing verb aspects, not prefixes... but in Czech you can do the same with a vengeance - psát, psávat, napsat, popsat, popsávat, dopsat, vypsat, vypisovat, rozepsat, rozepsávat, odepsat, zapsat, zapsávat... that's verb aspects PLUS verbal prefixes for you.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

No, you simply don't know Czech. ;-)

I'll give you an example:

In Polish, you can say e.g. "chodzić - chadzać"
In Czech, you can say "chodit - chodívat - chodívávat"

or "szczekać - poszczekiwać" while in Czech "štěkat - štěkávat - štěkávávat - poštěkávat"

This is discussed in the article I gave you the link to (in item 2.6).

And this part of Czech grammar is devilishly difficult for foreigners!

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

The grammar, esp. verb aspects.

dspace.upce.cz/bitstream/10195/21336/1/D11784.pdf

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Spot on ;-)

Genealogy / Do I look Polish? (my picture) [375]

Nicki - I'd say you look Spanish or Portuguese. Or maybe Italian? :-) But definitely South/Western European. Also, it's totally not true that ethnic Poles are blonde and blue-eyed - most Poles tend to have various shades of brown(ish) hair and can have all possible eye colours, often grey or brown. Many Polish women dye their hair blonde and that might have fooled you ;-) Of course, many people are blonde, but it's not the standard by any stretch of the imagination. Darker skin tones are not totally uncommon either. Either way, if you lived in Poland you would probably be seen as somewhat "exotic", people would tend to think you have some Spanish or Italian blood, but they would not automatically assume that you were not Polish. The Polish nation is very mixed - the Tartars and Turks, the Italians (Queen Bona), the Dutch (builders of the Żuławy Wiślane dyke system), the French (Napoleonic wars) and many others came to Poland in various periods and settled there :-)

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


I answered someone who asked which language seems (or is) more difficult - Czech or Polish. It seems to me that I, as a bilingual Czech / Polish speaker, brought up with both languages since birth, am at least somewhat qualified to try and answer this question. Why do I have problems with Czech grammar and spelling when I have no problems, and never have had any, with Polish grammar and spelling? Always considering that I had grown up in a fully bilingual household, with daily exposure to both languages, spoken and written.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


well, exactly, and "o dvanácté" is not "o dwanaście", it's "o dwunastej". dwanaście - dvanáct. dwunasta - dvanáctá. so, there is a case ending, I'm afraid. ;-) BTW - dwunasta godzina - dvanáct hodin.

I told you it was complicated ;-)


no, they both sound more or less like the Polish "y". as a result, some school kids make spelling errors like "Hytler" for example ;-)


you could say that Czech has no regular Polish "i" sound; it's much closer to the English [ɪ], as in "knee" for example;

on the other hand, the pronunciation of the Czech long "soft i", in words such as "dítě" or "tíha" is much more palatalised, to the point where Polish learners tend to say something like "dzicie, ciha" - but that's wrong, too ;-)

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


that's not correct. in Czech, you'd either say "ve dvanáct (hodin)" or "o dvanácté (hodině)".

I don't think trying to teach me my mother tongue is a good idea ;-)

As to the finer points of grammar I mentioned, it would be hard to list them without context precisely because they concern all manner of exceptions and rarely used forms. As to spelling - what is the rule for the use of ú versus ů, for example? I don't usually confuse them, but sometimes I have to check. The same goes for the use of y and i (the pronunciation is exactly the same in both cases). On the other hand, I never have to look up Polish or English spelling.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_conjugation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_declension
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_orthography

Life / Do Poles have a problem understanding American English? [76]


But are they? That's my question. Are all - or most - foreign language teachers in American schools and universities native speakers? Because I doubt it. Also, explain to me if you will the logistics of employing native speakers as English teachers in Polish schools. You would need how many? I'm guessing at least several thousand; how do you convince so many native speakers of English - who are also trained ESL teachers, mind you - to relocate to Poland and teach in kindergartens, primary, and secondary schools? In villages and small towns? For low pay and few perks? In a country whose language they do not understand? Oh, my. Good luck with that ;-)