Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Lenka
Did I say anything about pleasing any group? I asked why not consider the opposition groups position? Why not at least look at it? The rigidity of the 70% is exactly why any remaining percentage would find them intolerable. It is exactly why the "opposition" hates PiS so much, and vice versa. Can people not even learn from mistakes that their own political leaders make every day? There is no good law or rules where all sides are not considered. Everyone here wants to ignore 23 to 30% of the country, and that is pretty fvcked up thinking.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Paulina
Why dont you care what some people in Poland want? Why ignore any percentage of the people's wants? 23% is still a few million people, but if only 70% do not want change, then potentially 30% could. I thanked you for that poll, but you didn't read my post.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Paulina
Again, another leftist feminist comment concerning fair treatment by the courts. Women want the children, the house, half the man's savings, half his retirement, and alimony while keeping him from seeing his kids. Makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it?

I said being stay at home fathers is not something they are as well prepared for as women. That is a fact. Not every man can do it. Not every woman is good at it. Want to go to extremes, we can continue to do that.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Paulina
I am saying that being a stay at home father is not something men are trained for or equipped to do in most cases. It does not come naturally and takes them out of their natural roles. Men are simply not as emotionally equipped or nurturing as women are naturally. Anyone saying otherwise is retarded or an extreme feminist.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
francs-tireurs? Really? You want to take an antiquated WW2 term and use it in a modern discussion? Thats a stretch to say the least. The punishment for a guerilla fighter from who exactly? NATO? Poland? France? It is not even applicable in this discussion.

If September 12 is a weak example, which is the only example of Article 5 being activated in history, then you need to find a safer option. I hope no other country has to experience a September 11 type of attack, you have no idea what it was like to watch and live through it. Your grandparents might know something, but Poland has not been attacked now in more than 80 years. Imagine Warsaw being lit up by Russia and it taking a month or more for NATO and primarily the US to respond. Its a terrible thought.

As for record checks, all that is about to become instant with the new ETIAS program. I have gone through the process myself twice in the last five years. I understand the complications of cross border checks.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
A records check in the US literally takes less than an hour in most cases. For the 100th time, I think the psych checks are good and should be done for everyone. My point it 6 months to process is just stupid. You have a point with background checks in Poland though, they do take months, they check every EU member database, they do check Interpol, and they are extremely thorough.

If a NATO member is invaded it will take an average response time of 6 weeks to 2 months before NATO troops arrive in numbers enough to help. September 12, 2001 Article 5 was unanimously activated. It was not until October 7th that the first bombs began falling on Afghanistan, and the US military was already in the area for several years when it took nearly a month to respond. I wouldn't be counting on Article 5 to save anyone in a time frame that would make anyone feel safe at night.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Lenka
I was never talking about women not working. I was talking about women not having to go into the work place. And if taking care of a child is not considered working then that is a bad way of seeing things. I went into my office on weekends because I wanted to, not because I had to. Working from home was largely at night. I wanted the money and the family, so you have to do more. There is a very big difference in how Poles see work and how Americans see work. This is not a criticism of you, but Poles generally do not think out of the box enough to solve these kinds of problems. I do not know how your area is with its rigid work regulations. If I were in that situation I would simply look to change the situation.

Maybe the expression was weird for you. In the US there are expressions simply saying that the mark someone leaves on the world, his family and those who know him can be measured by how many people come to his funeral and visit his grave.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Barney
What if someone wants to take up skeet shooting? Bird hunting? Game hunting? Maybe they tried it in another place and would like to continue at home.

@jon357
Thanks for making my point in your #1900 post. You are completely incorrect when you say gun control does not work. Because it does. Background checks are almost instant, and never more than 72 hours. 99% of all illegal shootings are performed by people with illegal or illegally obtained weapons. It is extremely rare that a legally obtained weapon is used in a criminal act when you look at the overall population. That said, I agree there are too many careless gun owners, and that is a big problem which is why I said from the beginning any gun purchase should accompany a mandatory smart gun safe purchase.

Amiga makes a great point. The number of guns available on the black market in the future in Poland will be astronomical, and they will be cheap. So when the criminals have them what do you think will happen?

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Lenka
Anyone can do what I did, women included. In the US children are in school by 5 yrs old. In preschool usually around 3 or 4. If you have a degree and are well regarded, spending that time with children is a social benefit for everyone including the parents, but most importantly the children. If you do not see how fvcked up society is from absentee parents, too early to daycare and other problems created by the greed and materialist needs, then you are not looking honestly at things.

How is 5 days a week not staying at home? What kind of math are you using?

You expose your thoughts on old age as being monetary driven. My expression was meant to convey that my children, grandchildren, etc. will have thought enough about the life I gave them and lived with them, that they will visit the grave. That is what close knit families think about. Not once have I mentioned old age or children helping out. North American people don't look at their children in this way, and I have yet to meet Poles who see their parents or children in this manner. If anything I see more Parents in Poland working harder and longer to leave their children more.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
There is a need to streamline and modernize them yes, absolutely. It should never take six or more months for any able minded and body human being to get an approval regardless of what their reasoning is. Now, if Poland were invaded like Ukraine was, do you think Poland will just be giving away arms to everyone who wants one, or will everyone have to wait six months for approval? And once you cross that bridge, how likely will it be that people turn their weapons in after finding them useful in defending their lives and property?

You deliberately use the word weaken, when no one else has. You deliberately twist words and situations to fit your agenda and beliefs. And if you ever have to face an invading force, will likely be one cowering in the basement while your neighbors are killing soldiers to keep you safe. You know how many sane, able minded and able-bodied men and women in the US kill people in an unprovoked situation or a situation not requiring self-defense? Less than one tenth of one percent of legal gun owners. Legal gun ownership should not be something you have to wait for a bureaucrat to get off his a$$ walk across the room, get a stamp, and put a stamp and set of initials on 50 sheets of paper. It should be a process that is easy to understand, and easy to complete while maintaining safety standards acceptable to all people, not just people who have no education or experience with weapons.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
You have no clue.

@mafketis
Look up Football tailgating in the US. You will see tens of thousands of fans from both teams in the parking lot of huge stadiums drinking, eating and enjoying the game day atmosphere together. Fights do happen, but not like hooligans. These are for the most part the most working class, blue collar people in the USA. Sport fans in the USA do not operate drug, gambling and other illegal operations like in Europe. We leave that to the mostly European criminal organizations.

You make a great point about religion, and I would extend that to family and other elements of a solid culture. If the foundation is not there, then chances are what is built on just loose stones will eventually crumble.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Paulina
What you described is what I would call an optimal family situation. Raise the kids then go back to work when they are in school. Optimal for the children for sure, optimal for the father because his role doesn't have to change to one that's not natural for him, and in the long rum optimal for mom because she gets to enjoy raising a family and gets to go back to work. Not perfect, but its pretty damn good. I am happy for you that you had this experience.

@Lenka
"who the hell gives a damn about that?"

A lot of people do now. People are realizing that the chase of career's and material things, while sacrificing a family or witnessing their children grow up is not worth it. Everyone thinks about their legacy and mortality as they get older, anyone who doesn't is simply not normal.

While in Poland I give you that stay at home fathers are rare, but not as rare as you think. In todays remote work climate it is becoming more and more common. It is very common in the US. I stayed at home 5 days a week when my first was born, worked remotely, and then went into the office on weekends. Was not a problem and I am glad I did it. That was nearly 30 years ago.

The phrase "modern women" is a leftist and feminist label. I try not to label women or men in general unless its politically. But the concept of a modern woman was largely created in the US and has been exported around the world. In case the rest of the world has not been watching, the modern woman concept is failing in the US. When the majority of marriages fail, close to 60% now, it is largely due to nontraditional roles being forced on both men and women. Not everything is black and white. Children need to be educated in a way that teaches them not about "modern" concepts of roles, but of traditional ones as well. Just because things have changed for women in many ways does not mean that all changes have been great or that all changes have moved society forward.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@Lenka
I agree, but I think that's an oversimplification of the issue. It comes down to values. What are the values of men, women and couples. For too long, in my opinion, values have been sacrificed in pursuit of money from both sexes, and the pursuit of women's "rights". Not blaming women here, just giving a point of view. So, I ask the general question to you, what "right" does a man have that a woman does not?

While many are complaining about traditional values and traditional roles within the family dynamic, there has to come a point where we all recognize how the changes in the family dynamic over the last 30 years, have affected the birth rates of Poland and other countries.

I appreciate that three women in your group were talking and I appreciate their opinions. When does the man's opinion come into the discussion, or what men want, and what children need. Lets not forget, that not all pregnancies are planned. Lets also not forget that people, in todays world, often get caught up in their own goals, and lose track of time. A friend of mine, female, said just the other day, that she just realized she may not be able to have children now at 39 safely and she can't believe she forgot to have children younger. She now has huge regret chasing a career and not having children. A nice car, clothes and vacations won't be visiting your grave. There is just not enough thought being given to the family today, and too much emphasis on things and accumulating things instead in having a life.

Life / Poland's birthrate on the decline [480]

@pawian
Please tell me one specific "right" that men have that women do not. Just one. Not being a smart a$$ here just asking the question.

Birth rates are on the decline for many reasons. Feminism and women's rights activism is part of it, but not all of it. So many facets to this discussion no one could ever cover them all. But a lot of good points made here concerning income equality and other items. While declining birth rates are the problem, what is best for the children actually being born is also a big part of the problem that many do not wat to discuss.

@Miloslaw
Makes some very important points about families, raising children and other dynamics. Isn't what's best for the child the most important part of this discussion? Its a scientific fact that when mothers stay home with their children in their first formative years that the children have better lives, do better in school, are more well adjusted behaviorally, and have better relationships with their parents over the course of their lives. All the talk about population decline seems to be focused on what the adults want and not what children need, and for me that is the bigger problem.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
I call it a train station, where I grew up that is what it is called. Your attempt to "correct" me using (sic) and then calling it a railway station is just another stupid attempt to make yourself look like you are some intelligent being. Your discourse is twisted and simply based on limited life experience and your own far left agenda.

@Paulina
Thank you for those poll results. While I generally do not trust polls, example the last two US presidential elections, the numbers you present are at least ground for discussion. While 70% do not want gun laws liberalized, 30% is not a number that can be ignored. 57% feeling less safe also means that 43% feel more safe of have no opinion. My point being, that while in a poll there is always one side that looks stronger than another, it is ignoring the other sides thinking and position that leads to trouble later. Every side's opinion needs to be considered. People who oppose gun laws being changed have a right to their opinion, as do people who support change.

The problem is when people say things like there is no appetite for change, when there clearly is if 30% say so. While not a majority, that would represent millions of people. Drilling down numbers needs to be done. How did men respond, how did women respond, what are the age and income demographics. Where are the yes and no responses coming from, what are the beliefs behind these responses.

Maybe the term "liberalized" is the wrong term to use concerning this issue. Maybe the term should be "expedited" or something along those lines. Because you also make a great point about the gun ranges and how many there are now. While I actively go in Krakow I had no idea how many there were. 450 gun ranges is a lot for a country the size of Poland. That is a lot of people who are interested in shooting and or training how to shoot. In the US the gun laws require a background check, that is electronic and very fast. In Poland there is a background check and mental health assessment. I like the mental health assessment component and think it should be universal. That said, it should not take 6 months or more to get through the process in Poland.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
Again you try to twist words. No one said anything about shots fired at the train station. Everything you comment on is completely twisted and any conversation with you is just a waste of time. Enjoy your day.

@Paulina
If you read what I wrote when the conversation was involving drugs and crazed meth heads you will find how it lead to hooligans. While normal in Europe, they do not exist in North America, so being new to Poland, I could not have anticipated being confronted by them. I certainly wouldn't have known about two teams in one city after just moving there and not being a big football fan.

Anyway, my only discussion point is that safe gun ownership, and the process by which it can be accomplished should be streamlined, not in any way resembling the US. But people, all people in Europe, should be trained how to use fire arms as long as Russia exists as a threat.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
If? I can get one now, I have Polish citizenship. I would not carry one on the street here unless I was in Lodz or a few other places. I have never used the word "quality" of the gun laws here. There is no such thing as a "quality" law in any respect because all man made laws are technically imperfect and subject to interpretation, which is why we have courts.

I have been in two situations in Poland where I felt there could be violence. The one as I described with hooligans, and one at the train station in Warsaw. As I said, I can handle myself and am not a small or timid man. Neither would have required a gun, but the one at the train station was sketchy enough to make me think now that it could have easily escalated into a situation where it would have been warranted.

As for pointing out cities that have multiple teams, Krakow's teams are direct rivals, this changes the dynamic of the hooligan rivalry. The rivalry between team hooligans at different levels is nothing like the one between top level teams in Krakow. When teams have to take a bus with police security just to travel a few blocks, and have to wait inside the stadium until all fans have been cleared out, and those fans have to be physically separated inside the stadium, you have a very different environment. A team in the third or fourth league in Krakow is not even considered in the hooligan rivalry here. Comparing "fans" to hooligans is not something I do. Fans, and hooligans are very different.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
Most big cities don't have two competing football teams in the same league. Within 10 minutes walking distance from each other. American cities do not have professional sports teams located that close to each other playing in the same league except in American Football in the case of the NY Jets and NY Giants who share an arena. There is no trouble between those fans because hooligans just do not exist in US sports.

Not once have I said I wanted a gun because of them. Really man you need to stop trying to twist what people say in order to fit your narrative. Please show me a poll, unbiased one, thats been done to check the desire of Poles for gun ownership. If there isn't one, one should be done. I think there would be 40% or more in favor of more streamlined licensing. Again, I have never said guns for everyone. But everyone who wants one, who is legally allowed to have one, regardless of reason, if they can prove it will be kept safely and managed properly, should have the ability to get one. The process exists, it should just be tweaked a bit to speed it along.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
Context Jon, context. I had just moved here. I had no clue there were two teams in the city. That encounter is how I found out. It was not a rough neighborhood at all.

No. I do not feel the need to carry a gun here at all. I can handle myself without one in most cases. I don't feel the need to carry in the US either unless I am carrying a lot of cash or traveling through a bad area that I am aware of. Both cases are very rare.

I am a dual citizen now Jon, and no, I would not shoot someone anywhere unless I felt threatened or my family was in danger. A couple hooligans do not scare me when I know they do not have guns.

I do however subscribe to gun ownership for the protection of your home and family. I subscribe to hunting and other shooting pursuits that are fun and require skill. I do not support crazy access for everyone.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
I know football fans, and I know hooligans and how to differentiate. My first year here, I was in a Wisla neighborhood wearing Cracovia baseball hat and had the pleasure of meeting hooligans. They spoke to me and told me how things were there and gave me a pass because I was American. Football fans I see every day and there is a big difference.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
I am surprised genuinely that you haven't seen a hooligan. I see them nearly every day in Krakow for one football team or the other. I have seen them in Warsaw, Gdansk, Chorzow, and a whole lot of other cities. They are not difficult to spot whether its at a match or just roaming around.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Miloslaw
Sorry but I have to disagree with drugs not being a problem in Poland. Have you been to a football (soccer) game lately? Been to a club lately? I have seen people sniffing in bathrooms at Michelin Star restaurants. Its not just in a city like Warsaw or Krakow, but in smaller cities. Hooligans, who control most of the drug trade are everywhere. I remember being on a trip to Gdansk with a whole train full of hooligans, drunk, doing drugs in the bathroom, and completely crazy. I will say that alcohol is a much larger issue in Poland, but drugs with young people from certain groups is rampant. Lots of Poles, young men, carry knives and that is very well known. The knife wielding scenario is a very real scenario regardless of the drug or alcohol a person may be using.

While everyone's opinion, mine included, is shaped by their environments, there is a danger in not looking at todays environment. Today, in Poland we all need to recognize that the world around us is changing. There is more crime. Inflation, the war, COVID, and the influx of Ukraine people have created an environment ripe for trouble of this nature. Sure, some people hate guns. I have no problem with their opinions, except for when they inhibit my ability to defend my life, my family's lives, my home and my property. The threats of criminal activity in Lodz are much different than those in Nowy Sach, as they are different in Warsaw and Sanok. But there are threats, and the threat level is rising. While everyone can insulate themselves to a degree, there are no completely safe places. Safe, controlled, and responsible gun ownership anywhere in the world is a good thing.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
Did I at any time say drug crazed attacker? No, you did. I hang out in Rynek in Krakow and affluent areas of the city. I still see drug use walking through Planty. I see it when I am in Warsaw, and other places too. Your opinion is an oppressive one, a controlling one, one that reminds me of an extreme far left group in the US. You cite no real statistics, just general comparisons from Poland to the USA, and then sometimes the EU. No guns, no guns, when it should be responsible guns, responsible guns. But hey, when a war, or intruder comes, and your neighbor kills the POS that was about to kill you, you can thank him then and forget you want to limit access to people with good intentions.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
Did I say meth crazed? No. I said drug use. Plenty of drug use in Poland, and plenty of addicts.

Get off your high fvcking horse. You are no one to judge or say what Poland should or shouldn't do. Thats why there is voting. You need an intervention with your above everyone and everything attitude. You are stuffed so far up the left's a$$ that you can't even have a reasonable discussion. You are the all knowing and all seeing. Fine to speak your opinion but to claim that it is the majority opinion when you have no proof of it is wishful thinking. You take no account of other peoples thoughts, observations and opinions because of course you know what's best, not based on anything other than your opinion.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@johnny reb
I think joun is reading Hillary Clinton speeches in his spare time. Plenty of drug use all over Poland anyone saying otherwise lives under a rock. But I do like his idea of a gin license, particularly in Poland since alcohol use is probably the craziest I have seen anywhere in the world on a day to day basis. But, you dont have to worry about two drunks shooting each other because they dont have guns and they are probably too busy puking on the sidewalk or pi$$ing in the park in front of children to go look for a gun to buy. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Lenka
Clearly you didn't see the hypothetical essence of that statement. Yes, I agree though, the army buying weapons now is wise. A little late but still wise.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
Wrong Jon, in Poland and the US any conviction for a drug crime will disqualify you for gun ownership. It does not matter the age of conviction or the drug. A relative of mine in USA, pillar of the community where he lives, denied right to purchase a shotgun for skeet shooting because he had an impaired driving conviction when he was 19, the conviction was from the 1980's. Gun laws in the US are pretty strict. The problem is, many people are so careless with how they store their guns. Robberies, burglaries, and idiots just not remembering what they did with them and they go missing. Then they end up on the black market or in the hands of criminals.

@Lenka
Ok, so you don't see a problem with 6 months or even longer. When Ivan and the boys are rolling into Warsaw what do you think is going to happen then? The same exact thing that happened in Ukraine. Guns will be given to everyone, and most people will have no clue what to do with them. Ivan will be going street to street whacking who ever they want, raping who ever they want. Meanwhile Norbert will be waiting by the mailbox for his permit?

While I do not think Russia is a real threat to Poland right now, it could be a week, a month or a year from now. While I don't think crime rates in Poland warrant mass arming of the people to guard their homes, I think the process needs to be updated and made more streamlined. When someone does break into your neighbors house and tries to rob or rape them, are you going to be upset if that intruder is killed or would you prefer for him to get away and then come back in a week for your family?

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@Lenka
I do advocate for it. The process takes too long, and some people are excluded who probably shouldn't be. Example; if your neighbor got caught smoking pot in the 90's in Warsaw while at University, he can be excluded for this reason that is 30 years ago or so. What if that person now is not only well regarded in his community, physically and mentally sound? Should the process take six months or more? Realistic changes, nothing drastic. I have been a constant proponent of safe gun ownership.

As for maintaining old weapons, in families, I think you would be surprised at how many have been maintained. My relatives here have a nice cache of their own well hidden and safe in the mountains. The mountain people don't give these things up easily and are probably the most paranoid when it comes to Russia. At least in my experience with family anyway.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@jon357
You have been pointing things out and quoting me, so I asked you a direct question. As for my gun ownership, not only have I passed all background checks, licensed for a carry permit in two US States and volunteered teaching hunter safety programs years ago. My ability to use, maintain, and repair a weapon is exactly the skill set that would be in high demand if anything took place here.

If Russia does come, or Belarus, the 150K Polish military will not be able to stop them. An armed, responsible citizenry is what the Swiss have, and that would be a very good way to begin to educate people on gun safety and responsibility. I would propose any gun ownership comes with a mandatory biometric safe. Poles already have to pass background, and mental health checks to get licensed, it really is a pretty good system, it just takes a long time to get through the process like everything else in Poland.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

@mafketis
NATO response time to a direct attack on Poland would not keep Russia from destroying a whole lot of places and killing a lot of people. While it would be quick, there would be a lot of damage and death. NATO is defensive after all and a threat of attack is not enough to trigger anything other than a higher level of readiness under Article 4. Response time for full NATO involvement would be at least a few weeks. Example September 12, 2001 when Article 5 was invoked.

@jon357
Please point out to me where I suggested anything close to gun laws of the USA. You cant. And because you are on the road so much it would be impossible for you to participate in conversations with people actually interested in gun ownership or self defense because you are not at the ranges or at the military surplus shops or the gun stores around the country.

Its funny how people opinions change when they are actually attacked. But you cant put toothpaste back in a tube after it is all over the countertop. You can try, but it sure gets messy. Now try putting Putin back into Russia when the army of idiots comes. Just look at Ukraine.

Amiga, there are lots of guns all over Poland. Lots of WW2 relics that have been well taken care of. Lots of people in the mountains armed to the teeth. Idealists are usually the first ones killed. I'll take some ammo and body armor thank you.