History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Oh we did share a border and even had a "war" directly after Grunwald, the Hungarian king wanted to invade Poland with 10.000 men but because his nobles told him to go f*ck himself as far as invading Poland he was left with nothing.

The borders werent disputed because there was no political contest they were not disputed because both nations valued each other so highly any disputes got kicked under the rug immidiately.


Last i checked Hungarians are Ugro-finnish ethnicity and its not a Polish thing though i admit the gig we have going with Hungary is special and unprecedented its about 700 years old too.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Which territory in regards to Poland would that be?


What does it matter? If the Western politicians gave Poland to Germany it would mean war, as far as Poland is concerned its the Poles who created the situation fully knowing nothing will be given.

Versailles granted Poland something that the Poles have already taken.


To carve a new country out of Germany there would have to be no country there at all, there was one it was called Poland, carving out a new country is not the correct term, legally reinstating a formerly occupied country is what fits the picture.

Austro-Hungary is wholly different and more complex.


War is a big word here, an armed and/or social conflict, apart from the Greater Poland uprisings most of the takeover was done relatively peacefully by sheer weight of numbers but there was always a sharp stick behind if the German soldiers refused to give up arms.

As for Poles fighting for partitioners it was either due to forced conscription or because they were promised a country or because they got a chance to fight against one of the enemies of the state, either way it led to the creation of a formidable and well trained force in 1918-20.

As for Mandel i can understand his point of view thought it would have been different if he was Polish, Poland was there, with its civilisation, culture nation and an army and it would not go away even if there was no Versailles.

Incidentally as always Poland did prove critical to saving Western civilisation, if Mandels vision would come true 2 years later he would be forced into the horror of Soviet communism, Polands existence and its strength so quickly after it Poles resurrected it prevented that.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


I said i know you are not but you're unconsciously repeating the apologetic tactic of people with a pro-German outlook, that WW2 was about Versaiiles, WW2 was about the defeat of WW1 and Versailles was just a symbol of this defeat, if there was no Versailles treaty another excuse would be found.


Whether Hitler or Germans actually believed it is arguable, that they chose to believe it is true.

There's a difference between actuall mass perception and a construct entering mass perception as justification or self-delusion.

Hitler and his thugs simply constructed an ideology that Germans would have preferred to the truth, the price for accepting that ideology was physical extermination of other peoples, given that it didnt alter an average Germans life he simply didnt give a sh*t whether a milion kids get gassed somewhere in the East.

This is exactly why i think an average German citizen of WW2 deserved bombings, rape and murder that happened to him, Germans as a nation were guilty of complacency and a choice of their own pride over humanity, everything that happened to them was the consequence of their own collective choice.


We can agree that the ressurection of Poland was the result of WW1 (Poland itself is the result of Poles creating it 1000+ years ago) but not of Versaiiles.

Polish armed forces led a campaign thats goal was to evict German and Russian occupying forces from Polands native lands, Versailles simply acknowledged and ratified the situation Poles themselves have created as a result of WW1.

This is important because there's a big difference between Poland being given its independence and taking it, Poles took their independence back by themselves with very limited foreign aid, otherwise no one would give it to them, Versailles only acknowledged the end result.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


If that was the case then Hitler would never even consider an alliance with Poland, given Ribbentrops discussions with Beck such a possibility was strongly considered if Poland would yield to the demands.

The main reason why Germans hated Poland was because it was the symbol of their defeat, double that in that Poland heaved itself and won its own freedom which meant that the Empire was defeated not only by the mighty Western armies but also by the very people they looked down upon.


Are you a Nazi? Of course not then why parrot what was Nazi propaganda? Hitlers aims were pretty well pronounced in Mein Kampf, eradication of Slavs, Jews, Gypsies, submission of Western, Central and Eastern Europe, thats a bit more then simple reversing of Versailles.

Interestingly enough even today Germans including BB seem to forget that lands that Poland won back and Versailles ratified were the lands Germans never had any title to and took by an illegal act of forcefull annexation a century earlier.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


I'm sorry you're right i missed it so lets have a look at it:


You do realise that an insistance by a country that just overrun central and Western Europe amounts to an irrefusable demand?


Independent Finland and its small but capable army was crucial to the war effort, it was not about Jews but Finland being strategic for German interests (among others at Leningrad) and Bulgaria was geographically on such a complete sidetrack and with a relatively small Jewish population that it could be left for later.

However its important to mention that WW2 was not fought to kill Jews but to conquer Europe, Jews were killed as a side effect of conquest and were not its purpose so if a country was not important strategically it could indeed be left alone but countries like Denmark did not have such luxury.


Incidentally Hitler was an avid reader into theosophy and Steiner, his aim was by destroying Poland to decapitate the "mind of the Slavs" and by obliterating Russia to "rip out their heart" gotta find that interview.

Poland was always an obstacle in German drang nacht osten and the most culturally and civilisationally developed Slavic State, by killing Poland Hitler was hoping to kill what he viewed was a transitway from "Slavic folk ways" to a more organised and powerfull ethnic structure.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Lets imagine you live in such a city, have you ever shot a weapon? Do you know how to use it? Do you have any training whatsoever? Logistics support? Can you gather several thousand people who have military grade training?

Because if not then attacking people with automatic weapons, artillery support and armored cars using hammers and knives is a bad idea and if they have even one tank you're sh*t out of luck because its indestructible.

Thats not a computer game, a military thats acting indiscriminately against civilian population can wipe out countries with its thumbs in its arse and sipping coffee.

For the same reason the Polish minority was holding Ukraine by the balls in interwar Poland, you can have a bazilion civilians and it means sh*t if the other side has an army and is willing to use it.


Like which countries?

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


No nukes, take a look at Warsaw, it had thousands of brave fighters who unlike say Czechs were ready to lay down their lives and how did it end?

Civilians dont have the means or the training to take on a military, you can wreck a milion something large city with an understrength infantry division and a couple of weeks of hard work.


Again you fail to grasp the military vs civilians question, a single infantry batalion of 800 men is enough to pacify a city quarter of 40 thousand by sheer superiority of training and arms.

Germans did not extreminate Slavs wholly because A. Slavic people provided manpower for needed facilities. B. Germans wanted servants.

But if it would be required the regular army could easily wipe out all major population centers in all of occupied Europe within months.

Take a 155mm howitzer with 40 RPH, thats 40 shots per hour, thats 40 buildings per hour, 10 howitzers can potentially collapse 400 buildings within an hour, give them a couple of weeks, attach an engineer regiment with satchel charges and a couple of infantry battalions to protect them, you have a force of 10 cannons and maybe 3000 men poised to obliterate a 50.000 city in less then a week.

So yeah Germans had both the means and will to do it if pushed to it.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Because of what? The whole infrastructure to locate, imprison and murder was in German hands effiency of extremination would not suffer people still needed to hide in settlements or their general vicinity to survive.


Rubbish, if you werent a major ally like Italy and refused to deport Jews you'd get a bullet everywhere, you're making it sound as if Germans gave people a choice.


The Germans had means to murder 80% of all Slavic people and more then 90% of Poles if Russia failed, German nazism was poised to extreminate any number of people who defied it and had the means to do it everywhere it did not have to oppose an equal enemy (ie Russian/Western militaries).

If shall we say all people in Prague said "no" then Germans would just exterminate all people in Prague, as evident in Warsaw, Stalingrad and a number of other cities Germans had no qualms against emulating Chyngis Khan with the sole difference that Mongols let children that could fit beyond the axle of a carriage live, Germans had their way even with newborns.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Nothing would change, Germans still had access to popuation census, still controlled the flow of food and still had ample garrison forces to take care of things.


Well one thing that would change would be a much higher casuality rate among non-Jewish populations since refusing to carry orders or giving a Jew a slice of bread typically earned a bullet for you and your family, if you're asking could a greater number of Jews be saved? Unlikely, Germans controlled all regions that could facilitate shelter and food to an extent that only a few more individuals could be saved.

Now if we're talking about Hungary, Slovakia or Romania these were indeed German-local projects but again they were made possible and facilitated by Germans, without them they just wouldnt happen.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


How would they all run away in an organized fashion? Telepathy? People were frightened and under the gun, even when facing death our human instinct is to stay put when this happens.

Also that might be your explanation:

All were driven in groups of ten down a corridor of SS soldiers, and then shot at the edge of the Babi Yar gorge. The crowd was large enough that most of the men, women, and children could not have known what was happening until it was too late

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Lets assume 40 of them had MP-4s, thats over 1200 bullets that can be shot in a period of about 5 seconds, add to this MG-42s with 250 bullet belts, lets say there were 8, thats 2000 bullets in about 20 seconds.

So only the soldiers with automatic weapons were capable of discharging 3200 bullets in under 30 seconds, reloading time took about 3 seconds.

That should answer your question.


German nation made it possible and save for a handfull of tiny states like Slovakia or Hungary the occupied territories did not help Germans in an organized way, help if indeed came was happening either by collaborators who were few in regards to total population or under German guns.

So no it was not an "European project" it was an all the way German project.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]

So you have hundreds or thousands of frightened people from all over the place and you expect them to fight for their lives with military cohesion and organisation?

Thats ignoring the fact that a few heavy machineguns could easily slaughter the lot of them and as i can recall there were more then a few at Babi Jar.

In regards to Babi Jar, a police battalion company, an SS company, SD, SiPo, all in all more then 400 Germans with 2 armored cars, an unspecified number of MG-43s and MP-4s and you wanted a bunch of frightened women and children to fight for their lives?

Also Ukrainians only herded people to the general location they didnt do the shooting, no one denies there was collaboration but it was not as you put it, an European project, it was planned extremination carried out by military elements of the German nation with loud or quiet approval of much of the nation itself.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


No but they were people with the guns, if you didnt obey you went to the same cattle wagon as Jews.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


I generally view Wiesenthal as populist, they're a bit like Spanish Inquisition branding people (including Germans) left right and center.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Given that Wiesenthal has incomplete records and goes after killers of Jews only thats woefully incomplete.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Like Poznań with its Polish built old town?:)


Oh yes like the Jagiellonian university in Kraków, oh wait thats one of the old Polish capitals, or maybe you meant the Zamość Univeristy? Or the Lwów university? Or Lublin schools, or Warsaw universities? Oh wait they're all Polish:)


You have no idea how fast Nathan can run :(

On a more serious note while i know you're not a Nazi apologetist the fact is BdV is ears deep in former Nazi members and Steinbach herself mingled with them freely knowing who they were.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Waiiiit so if you change the name of the organisation but keep the members we're liars?:) Some more German logic from you BB? Like how the cities you stole from us for 100 years have always been German?

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Certainly:

Since you cant read Polish i'll translate for you (you can ask any Polish or non-Polish but Pl speaking member of the boards to confirm if you wish).

"The Exiled present themselves as an organisation untainted by Nazism, victims of history banished from their homes, Spiegels discoveries however deny that.

From the documents to found by reporters it shows that (among others) Friedrich Wilhlem Schallwig a long time leader of BdV in Baden-Wurtemerg and an accomplished activist of the "Exiled" was a member of Einsantzgruppe A, in effect of actions of Schallwigs unit 17 thousand people died, all in all Einssatzgruppe A liquidated a quarter of a milion people."

Later it describes one of the co-founders of the Exiled Rudolf Wagner as a member of SD and perpetrator of a massacre of Jugoslav Jews, Erica Steinbach lied claiming he was a regular Wehrmacht trooper.

Finally it goes to Herbert Schwarzer a long time secretary of the Exiled who used to be an accomplished member of the NSDAP.

All in all the reporters found 70 such dirty secrets, a total of one third of the seniors of exiled were ardent Nazis, many of them mass murderers in Einsatzgruppen or Camps, other "simply" issuing orders to kill from behind the desk.

When Spiegel revealed its discoveries Steinbach said that they have nothing to blame themselves for and only later altered her tone, in other words Germans who pretend to be victims are either former Nazis or like Steinbach Nazi supporters or like our BratwurstBoy, Nazi apologetists (you should read his opinions on Steinbach).

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]

Quite possible, Erica Steinbach is leading an organisation that up untill recently was filled with Nazis, former SS and people who directly or indirectly were responsible for these crimes, she herself is a daughter of the Nazi.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


You mean with Poland being the only economy in Europe thats growing in the time of crisis while your barbaric country dies out and dwindles because of its welfare policies?:)

Take care Nazi grandson at this rate we're not only going to buy out your border:)))


Yes it is only because you cant deny it you attempt to shift the blame captain "Ubermensch":)

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


You mean create death factories? I dont think anyone except Germans was capable of that ,even Russians cruel as their gulags were lacked your efficiency and skill you can be proud:))


Oh yes it is, it most definitely is.


Actually you're just a bunch of barbaric twats who clothed their inhumanity in suits and pretend they're civil like the rest of the world:)


so does it make you feel any better by posting this rubbish? Poland has the most "just among the nations" in the world, we have never stained ourselves with the kind of thing you did not because we're inefficient but because we're human beings.

Listening to you going about how the land you stole from Poland is German or how cool you are when you gassed people instead of say beating them to death i'm glad your nation is in such decline, maybe at one point history will return the favor you once delivered.


Were they willing or under the gun? How did they help? Because Germans herded people to dig mass graves, you're not only shifting facts you're lying and altering the truth to make the guilt both yours and your predecessors somewhat less.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


I love it BB, a descendant of the single most barbaric inhuman nation in the history of mankind shifting blame.

Great grandson of murderers pointing fingers?:)


BB you know i'm civil and rational but please dont insult Poles and Poland by comparing your people to ours, even Mongols didnt come up with what your grandfather and his neighbours did between beers.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Which is why i said you didnt have the choice, we're not the culprits here and just because Jews want money out of sheer greed doesnt mean we have to or shoud pay them.

Our resistance to such outrageous demands gave birth to Israeli prejudice, the world spoiled Jews and like a spoiled brat they jump up and down when denied.

History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland [229]


Because while you caved in to all demands having no choice we did not.

History / Is There A Polish Foreign Legion? [35]


Why? We have great soldiers, resourcefull, brave and well trained why would you invite people with murky past to do our job when we can do it so much better?

France has an excess of money and a sentiment towards the colonial past, not to mention French people dont relish the idea of war of dying for a good 100 years now so in France why not, in Poland? Never.

Food / Schmaltz.. is it still used in Poland [21]


There's a pub in Wrocław where they give you free bread with smalec with your beer, tastes great.

History / Question on Poland's szlachta clan admission [26]


You're just jealous that my ancestors lived in a manor and yours in a peasant hut, who knows Nathan maybe your grandfathers were plowing my grandfathers fields? Ukrainians make such good serfs:)

History / Question on Poland's szlachta clan admission [26]


Is he? Where? Because if you mean that the same coat of arms meant that you were a part of the clan thats rubbish, take my family, our coat of arms is Rogala and we share it with what? Sixty other families?


Family structure which bore great similarities to a clan structure and yes i do not mean Scottish clans but then again these are not defining of the term Clan either.

History / Polish historical myths - to break or not to break them? [257]

Napoleon was a pr*ck but he did give us a country of our own, even if it was not out of the kindness of his heart he still did it and it helped preserve hope for future liberation.

History / Question on Poland's szlachta clan admission [26]

Actually yes in Poland, why do you think "czarna polewka" and other traditional ways of denial and acceptance into various positions (fiance, new noble etc) exist?