Posts by Bratwurst Boy

Bratwurst Boy

19 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

lol.. I am a sick man...

No just a Pole...you can't help it!

PS: That isn't the same horse you lend me for Siberia, isn't it...

(you lost WWII because of the Yankees :-])

And they forgot about you after the war and left you to the Russians...what is worse?
I would think about that twice if I were you!

Bratwurst Boy

19 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

I'm shaking already!

NATO is 'paralyzed' by Germany and France. They do not like American political and military presence in Europe.

Under polish leadership it would be so much better, I gather?

Bratwurst Boy

19 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

I believe we will all see each other in Lusatia ;)

You can come visit Germany any time...:)

I meant a bilateral military alliance

For what?

The NATO is for all that...there are no "extra" alliances!

Did you ever heard of the Euro Corps? The core of the new future european Defense?
Look who is working there together...yup! Germans and Poles too...imagine that! *gasp*

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocorps

Bratwurst Boy

19 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

In few years Serbia will join the EU...the SAA is already initialized.

See you in the civilized world Crowie!

Bratwurst Boy

19 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Oh wait...you are sharing the reality of the Crow!

Okaaay....

Bratwurst Boy

19 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Well, we are in a economical and political alliance together (EU) and in a military alliance (NATO), it doesn't get much closer than that...

In what world are you living Rafal?

Bratwurst Boy

18 Mar 2009

News / US to deploy Patriot missiles to Poland [405]

Why? Did they let Albos taking over yet already???

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

I'm spreading the only true views by means of sarcasm, demagogy, trained eristic.

Thanks for letting me in! :)

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Leberwurst-Boy, reading your posting gives me a strange deja vu feeling.
Your kind of argumentation reminds me of the German "Dresden" movie.

It isn't so much MY argumentation...I took care to post non-german sources, even russian ones....and what could compare to Stalins original orders?

I just don't need as much "interpretation" of facts....the same facts you seem to have problems with...because they are pointed out to you by a German?

Till now you only seem to be able to answer with bad jokes or sarcasm...no counter arguments, nothing to show were I was wrong.

(But accusing the adversary of being a neo-nazi or a nazi apologist is still a last "weapon" when everything else failed, right? Right! How lame...)

But you are right...the so called history "mainstream" in Germany changed abit during the last years...concentrating more on our own german stories...I see nothing wrong with that...every country does that...and this has zilch to do with "rewriting" history, because all these stories really happened too and nothing get's rewritten but only now talked about!

Dresden", "Eine Frau in Berlin", "Gustloff"

All of those things happened...what do you care as a Pole if Germans talk about it?

PS: You should try "Stauffenberg"....not bad at all! :)

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

I'm not sure if it's the Germans duty to make the articles in english also...maybe to lazy....sometimes it is just better to be bilingual :)

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Of course you know about Katyn...but do you know about Winniza?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_massacre

...Most of the bodies were found in the fruit orchard (5,644 bodies). Altogether, 91 mass graves were discovered at the three different locations and 9,432 bodies were exhumed;

...A monument was also erected to the "Victims of Stalinist Terror". Later the Soviet authorities rededicated the monument to the "Victims of Nazi Terror", finally completely removing it and creating an entertainment park in its place.[4...

Propaganda/history is still full of Winniza's....massacres by the Soviets but blamed on the Germans!
So please excuse me if I find offense with that and don't want to accept that quietly...that has nothing to do with white washing real atrocities done by german troops (there were already enough of them).

And I can't see a russian exhibition about russian war crimes forthcoming, can you?

However to give you a justice (translation):

Thanks...

Just saying... the murder and terror in the Sovietunion didn't start with the invasion of the Wehrmacht (and it didn't end with it).

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

I didn't know about this facts. Thanks

You know german Rafal, don't you?
For you the same...

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung#Kritik_von_Historikern

Google Translation: German » English

... 1999, the Polish historian Bogdan Musial for errors in the assignment of ten photos that are not German, but Soviet crimes in summer 1941 show. "He asserted, moreover," approximately half "of the photos showed acts that nothing to do with war crimes had to be done [10].

The Hungarian historian Krisztián Ungváry declared a six pictures shown Distraint Serbian youths in a Yugoslav town was not of the Wehrmacht soldiers, but members of the Hungarian army were executed.

Only ten percent of all involved 800 photos actually showed Wehrmacht crimes, the other acts were of Hungarian, Finnish and Croatian soldiers, "assistant willing" from Ukraine, Russia and the Baltic States or members of the SS and the Security Service (SD). [11 ] Dieter Schmidt-Neuhaus doubted four photos of the victims of a massacre in Tarnopol should show [12].

The military historian Rolf-Dieter Müller of Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamt took this criticism on the issue and threw authors before the mass audience to have misled [13].

------------------------------------

PS: There is nobody who would deny the partaking of some german military in atrocities and war crimes it happened...but please, keep it realistic! It happened

on all sides. Stalin used his own civilians as human shields, that accounts for most of their deaths, not the german army!
I mean when even russian historians like Lomov and Epifanov start to doubt all this propaganda about the inhuman german "beasts" that should give you a hint...

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Did nobody teach you to discuss seriously Borrka? Only sarcastic blah blah instead of arguments? Again...what are you fearing?

Apropos Reemtsma:

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung#Kritik_von_Historikern

Learn Borrka, open your eyes and learn...

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

I have nothing to say.

Just go and read and learn...the world of information is now open for you too!

(And exactly that will hinder the start of a new war or the overwhelming power of propaganda being able to whip up hate against another country...because everybody can now get information for himself not dependent on official, selected feedings)

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

More "lies":
It doesn't get more direct!

...
To deny the German army the possibility of settling down in villages and cities, to chase out the German occupiers from all settlements into the cold of the field, to smoke them out of all living quarters and warm shelters and to force them to freeze to death under the open sky - that is an task not to be postponed, from the accomplishment of which the acceleration of the shattering of the enemy and the destruction of his army depends to a great extent.

The Headquarters of the Supreme Command orders:

1. To completely destroy and burn down all settlements in the rear area of the German troops in a depth of 40 to 60 kilometers from the main line of combat and 20 to 30 kilometers to the left and right of the roads.

That was an official order! There are your thousands of burned towns and villages!
But go on, blame the Germans...

The above is a rendering of the full text of Stalin Order 0428 of 17 November, 1941.

books.google.com/books?id=PGANqVNdjKQC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=Stalin+Order+0428&source=bl&ots=hhDQsRWTQX&sig=Ua8bjcCj1IIGo-6QBto3mgCx3hA&hl=en&ei=bje6SfDZKIq1-QaxteHLBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

For some reasons I'm not going to use sarcasm or irony in this topic.

The last outlet of the helpless, bad jokes against uncomfortable truths...but it's not really a funny matter.
But when even russians and ukrainians today openly doubt the soviet narrative about the darker truth's of this war, why can't you even start to think for yourself?

What are you fearing?

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

He is lying on purpose

Where am I lying Borrka? Prove me wrong...I post objective links, not opinions.
It must be hard wading through decades of propaganda but the truth is worth it, believe me, give it a try!

wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20071/80

...In the soviet times, the history of the second World War was a very sensitive subject and one-volume and many-volumed histories published then were heavily biased; very many facts were suppressed or twisted in an attempt to hide the appalling truth about the war...

...One of the reasons the truth was prevented from being revealed in the soviet times was the unjustified deaths of millions of soviet soldiers and civilians in that war - deaths which resulted from mistakes made by soviet commanders at all levels and from the pressure exercised by Stalin and other soviet leaders to have a city defended or captured, or a battle won at all costs by certain dates, important for propaganda reasons.

You start to sound like a Jew crying "ANTI-SEMITE" every time one criticizes Israel.
Only for you it's either neo-nazi or nazi-apologist...poor sod!
Is Stalin still such a hero for you? Do you really believe his utterings to be the truth?
I never knew Poles believed all what the Stalinists told them...or did the Stalinists only lie about Poland and the Poles and told the truth about the Germans???

...
Stalin called upon the soviets to pursue the scorched-earth policy in his address made on July 3. Not only military installations, factories and other things that could be put to military or other use by the invading forces were to be destroyed, but also all the foodstuffs too. A great many people were indeed evacuated - but millions remained in the territories occupied by the Germans. Without food, they faced starvation. There were many civilian casualties when the soviets blew up factories and other facilities without warning the people who lived nearby - the way it happened, for example, when the soviets blew up the dam of the Dniprohes power station on the Dnipro.

Untold number of the helpless wounded and sick were left behind or physically destroyed. These harrowing things are described in the recently published book, Velyka Vitchyznyana Viyna. Spohady ta rozdumy ochevydtsya (Great Patriotic War - Reminiscences and Reflections) by Fedir Pihido-Pravoberezhny. But in the postwar years, soviet propaganda and servile soviet historians claimed that the evacuation was well-organized and omitted mentioning the horrors of the scorched-earth policy.

All liars of course...

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

You are juggling with facts. There was nothing similar with scorched land from Stalin's side.

Man....you can read, can't you? Google for yourself...
One can lead a horse to the water but can't force it to drink!

Here I am speaking about the facts I know from my grandma who had lived in this time in small village near Moscow.

PS: Be glad Stalin didn't raze Moscow to the ground just in case the Germans got even nearer...but then I remember you telling that a proud and right thing to do even if it would had meant to sacrifice your grandma!

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3568041/Stalin-planned-to-destroy-Moscow-if-the-Nazis-moved-in.html

PS: Stalin didn't need the Wehrmacht to destroy the land and kill millions of people!
It didn't start with the invasion and didn't end with the fall of the Nazis...

artukraine.com/famineart/mace12.htm

....The further work with this material we leave to posterity. We simply could not endure the pain and horror. Stalin's sociological scorched earth policy maimed Ukraine to such an extent that it created a discontinuity in the normal development of the Ukrainian people, producing a unique situation....

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Are you out of your senses? And what about thousands and thousands of burned villages and towns?

Ever heard of Stalins "scorched earth" order? What do you think that meaned?

...In case of forced retreat of Red Army units, all rolling stock must be evacuated, the enemy must not be left a single engine, a single railway truck, not a single pound of grain or gallon of fuel. Collective farmers must drive off all their cattle and turn over their grain to the safe keeping of the state authorities, for transportation to the rear. If valuable property that cannot be withdrawn, must be destroyed without fail.

The peasants were left with nothing, the rest took the partisans (and beware if the peasants didn't want to give their last cow)...
And when the red army came back many of them got trialed as alleged collaborateurs and murdered!

(Of course in the still prevailing soviet WWII narrative EVERY burned house, every murdered peasant is the guilt of the german soldiers, isn't it...)

What a great opportunities to lay all blame even for your own murders on the feet of the enemy....remember Katyn? And you can I believe even today still find museums in Russia who show "human soap" and present it as truth...

The war propaganda never really ended!

infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-06.html

...As the Soviet authorities and army retreated from Ukraine in 1941, Stalin's scorched earth policy left a trail of destruction including the Dniprohes Dam on the Dnieper River, which was the largest hydro electric power dam in Europe, countless mines and major industrial factories, and Khreschchatik Street in the capital city of Kiev. On November 3, 1941 the famous architectural monument, the Dormition Cathedral in the Pecherska Lavra built 1073 in Kiev, was destroyed.
Moscow tried to blame the Germans for destroying this superb example of medieval Ukrainian architecture but it was proven to be the work of a Soviet bomb squad which had mined it before their retreat and later set it off killing Germans...

....many, many of such examples when you go searching!

news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/22/newsid_3526000/3526691.stm

...At the same time, the retreating Soviet troops destroyed crops and burnt entire villages under Stalin's "scorched earth" policy to prevent supplies falling into German hands.

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Is there any comparison between Haditha and WW2?

Of course...as you yourself throw the "collective guilt" around that freely every lone polish soldier is also responsible for the massacre in Haditha just because of being a member of the same coalition!

What's good for the goose...

If your noble troopers would win i wouldnt even be here because most Poles would be dead/germanized/on Syberia in work

I don't think so.....some things just don't fit, you know?
But this was an unwinnable war anyhow...the third Reich used war not for
a means to an end but as a reason for it's existence...

Did he ask for medical help for the victims of Treblinka? Belżec?

You still don't get it...

you want to respect him fine, everyone's entitled to an opinion but i sure as hell am not going to respect any Nazi trooper from WW2.

I think we can compromise on that! :)

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Poles fight together and for a gov which made the rapes and the massacre of Haditha and Abu Ghraib possible...do all polish soldier suck now?

Once, after an especially successful fight against russian tanks, what saved the day for his unit (again), his superior asked Wittmann if he had a wish, it would be granted...Wittmann only said that there are still wounded russians on the field and asked for medical help for them...

What a bastard!

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

B.B. Do you mind looking up some Russian officer quotes, with similar things to say about the German army? Any quotes by a Slav would do, actually.

When they write in english why not? :)
But the problem with the Russians (and most Slavs come to think of) is that for decades they never could truly tell what really happened...the communist regime and their story line about the "Great Patriotic War" smothered everything...

And now most are dead!

I mean..there are the "saintly" heroic partisans...which were neither saintly nor heroic but often enough brutally killed their own peasants or let them starve to death.

And doesn't do the pics I posted make you think if all that stuff you got fed about the beastly Wehrmacht and the evil SS were not the only truth?

An SS soldier helping a wounded russian tanker? German soldiers paying respects to their fallen polish adversaries?
Don't fit the picture you have so cleanly, don't they....

forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38374

The representations disseminated by Soviet propaganda of the occupation regime of the German Wehrmacht, which in its true character had nothing to do with atrocities and crimes, were one of the most mendacious themes of the traditional Soviet historiography of the Second World War. [........] Re-education has to serve not only the ends of historical truth and objectivity, but also that of moral liberation from the negative phenomena that appeared under the conditions of Stalinist totalitarianism.

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

You just don't get it.....

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Nope, I still think it's a polish thing...somehow correlates with the polish urge always to demand only the most and greatest respect for yourself (and pouting if you think you don't get enough of it)...always crying loudly and throwing tantrums about every true or percieved slight...gloating about the tiniest sporty success as if you won a world championship and trying to talk down your adversary...

Not a pretty picture Sokrates! But that is your problem, not the Germans nor anybody else's!

Courage & honor know no particular flag.
As tanks are the spiritual descendents of horse cavalry, I honor you with one of our 2 greatest cavalry officers.
Rest Well, Sir.

- Bob Hufford

Bratwurst Boy

13 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Maybe it's really a polish thing...being unable to pay respect to a worthy adversary...

The Brits can do it, the Americans do it, hell even the French can do it, not at least the Germans (even to the so called "Untermenschen")...only the Poles are unable to be that civilized.

Interesting insight..but not really important!

*shrug*

"Forces of Valor"

Bratwurst Boy

12 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

these people deserve no respect, ever.

Well....regardless what you think about it and wish it weren't so they still get it!

And now let's stop this useless discussion...

Bratwurst Boy

12 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Most others who? Erica Steinbach or other expelees trying to rewrite history.

...have a nice day!

findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?GRid=11947&page=gr

One of the NON-GERMAN comments:

You were the greatest of all German WWII Panzer commanders. You died fighting bravely for your country, Deutschland, with your four comrades.
The 4th County of London Yeomanry will never forget you.
I remember hearing on the news when they found your battlefield gravesite near Gausemil and moved you to the Soldatenfriedhof at La Cambe. Rest in peace.

THAT is respect for an enemy!

Bratwurst Boy

12 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Yes they were heroes,

Sure, as long as it's a Pole doing the crime he is still a hero....do you see now how useless
any discussion about this is?
And how worthless your judgement about german soldiers is for me and most others?

A war crime is a war crime, regardless which sides does it!
Some Poles have a long way to go still...

dont focus on nationality it has nothing to do with the matter.

YOUR focus on nationality has EVERYTHING to do about it!

Ask the Brits about Rommel, their enemy, but oh how they respect and even admire him.
And also Wittmann and many others.....think about that!

Bratwurst Boy

12 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

They are all criminals in my mind, and don't deserve any respect.

Well...that's the core of it..."in your mind".
That's why there can't be any discussion about it, a matter of view more.

I just find it interesting that the most objective and acknowledging books and documentations come from the anglo-saxon room, the ex-enemy.
google.com/search?hl=en&q=Michael+Wittmann&btnG=Google +Search&aq=f&oq=

They pay those soldiers their respect as they deserve it...what some Fili or some Sokrates thinks about them doesn't really matter. :)

SS was evil, very.

Yes, Klingenberg who saved Belgrade from destruction was surely enormously "evil".
A soldier who never broke any law of war like Wittmann is incredibly "evil"!

Manno...you are so brainwashed!
Or you just don't know the meaning of "respect"? (It doesn't mean "liking", ya know)
:)

PS: Sokrates, I doubt you read lot's of books about the SS or the german soldiers or you wouldn't spout such idiocy!
Millions of Germans fighted in the Wehrmacht and the SS and most of them (Wiesenthal center said more then 98 % never took part in any crimes or atrocities) were just damn fine soldiers!

But k98 is right, it's without any use to try to talk about that with people who don't even know the meaning of respect for an enemy!

Germans do:
(A small german cemetary for polish soldiers 1939)

"Here rest 5 valiant polish soldiers"

PS: But I recognize this behavior from your sports...whenever you win you can only gloat, never congratulate your adversary or respect them for a good fight...no...only gloating and trying to humiliate him...

What is it with you folks?

it does not matter if the guy did not kill anyone what does matter is that he was a member.

Yes, he was a German...not a Pole...how mean of him!

:)

But don't tell me...the polish flyers who shot down bailed out german flyers helpless hanging in their ropes are for sure great heroes...as a Pole it comes as a birthright, right?

Right!
And of course ALL polish flyers are criminal bastards because of those fews, aren't they?
They were after all all members...

Boah ey

last word for Bismarck, on his deathbed, was-'Serbia!

What? Should we send another one or two soldiers to take your capital???
Did he laugh himself to death? :):):)

Bratwurst Boy

12 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

Should I laugh when I read that statement?
I think I need an explanation here. Fast ;-]

That's an order, man!

It's an universal statement.

Well....

Night *waves*

Bratwurst Boy

12 Mar 2009

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

ooopsie....

BB I didint know you listened to Bound for Glory. What other White Nationalist bands do you listen too? BFG is popular here...

I'm interested in the lyrics...they sing about Wittmann, that's why I liked it (even as a non-english native it's hard to decipher WHAT he actually sings)