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Polish history is 100% glorious


Stu 12 | 522
5 Aug 2010 #61
Indifferently? What could a few hundred soldiers, only armed with a handfull of personnel carriers and a bunch of light arms do against thousands and thousands heavily armed Serbian soldiers who also had dozens of heavy tanks?

Not to mention the 6 times Karremans asked for air support, the fact that the first few requests for air support were not relayed to UN-HQ in Zagreb, the fact that the mission was called a peacekeeping mission (hence the fact that Dutchbat carried only small arms), there was an unclear mandate, Gen Janvier who most probably made a deal with Mladic not to attack from the air, 2 members of the UN-Security Council who, in the beginning of June 1995, already knew Srebrenica would be attacked but chose not to mention this, the fact that there was no clear definition of the term "safe area".

Did things go wrong? Absolutely! But the main culprits here are the Dutch government and the UN ... and not DutchBat
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
5 Aug 2010 #62
But the main culprits here are the Dutch government and the UN ... and not DutchBat

They were co-responsible. Let's not forget that the Serbs were the main perpetrators, not Dutchbat or the Dutch govt or the UN, those latter three didn't kill thousands of Bosniaks, Serbs did.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Ziemowit 13 | 4,393
5 Aug 2010 #63
These books were probably written in a time when countries needed to glorify their past in order to gain a national identity. Now that this is no longer needed, historical debate is much more open and truthful. You're from a country that is still in the middle of finding its national identity

The books I'm indicating are from the 1980s. By that time the British had their national identity very firmly established, I should think. I will present you with the excerpts and the exact sources as soon as I find the books. You will be able to judge for yourself.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
5 Aug 2010 #64
What was the author of those books? Usually says sth about the contents. And even though the 80's is slightly before my time as a historian, I am sure that if this is an obvious mistake or erronous view, it would have been burned down by other historians.

Like I said above, books like these are not very good examples as they stand on their own and perhaps represent not a common view on a certain subject. I know that after Cromwell, at the end of the 1780's, early 1790's, there was a brief union between England and NL, due to King William 3 of Orange, which was Dutch, ascending to the English throne. It's very well pssbl that that king (and I take it that this specific is being examined in the excerpt you're gonna pop up with) took indeed Dutch soldiers with him (not mercenaries - they were in service of the king, but in a way ALL soldiers in those days were mercenaries as they all got paid for their services), but that's where my knowledge stops. Have to look into the matter a little deeper when I have time as it's not my time-period for one.

>^..^<

M-G (no enlightening on the remark about Srebrenica?)
sobieski 107 | 2,128
5 Aug 2010 #65
Point is that he is foreigner who read one maybe two books about the issue and then he comes here and make definitive moral judgements.
Most of these "facts" were fruit of communist propaganda.
How dare he ? How dare you?
Write a book about it - historical book then it something to be discussed - not some empty statements.
I think that Sobieski have some connection to Poland and want to settle some scores !

Actually I read I think basically all books about Polish history published in Polish and Dutch. I am historian from education - be it Medieval History -.

What must I, or for that matter MG - dare? To serve you a few unsavoury facts of recent Polish history?

Hmmm my connection with Poland... let me see...my wife is Polish, I live in the city state of Warsaw... I came first time to Poland in 1989...

And my Flemish village was liberated by the First Polish Armoured Division in 1944.
(I have disappointing news for you on that front - there were quite a few Polish jews serving in the division as well - see the Polish Military Cemetary in Lommel, Belgium)

But I refuse to accept your Dmowski-edition of Polish history.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,393
5 Aug 2010 #66
M-G (no enlightening on the remark about Srebrenica?)

I can't help thinking that if they were Polish soldiers rather than Dutch ones, you (and if not you, that would no doubt be Harry) would have put forward the case as an example of the military force being coward in face of the enemy.

Like I said above, books like these are not very good examples as they stand on their own and perhaps represent not a common view on a certain subject.

It seems the one I have did present a sort of common view on the subject as it was a sort of a "semi-official" pamphlet on all the monarchs of Britain. Not to the point, I think, that it would bear a stamp of Her Majesty's Queen Elisabeth II official approval, however.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
5 Aug 2010 #67
I can't help thinking that if they were Polish soldiers rather than Dutch ones, you (and if not you, that would no doubt be Harry) would have put forward the case as an example of the military force being coward in face of the enemy

I don't think so. I have studied the matter quite thoroughly but no matter where the soldiers would come from, they would never have been a match for the advancing Serbian army and to start fighting with them, especially when, like Stu mentioned, the air support for which was asked a few times, doesn't arrive, it's nothing less than a suicide mission. Plus you seem to forget that the Serbians took 30 Dutch soldiers hostage as well in order to prevent air strikes.

Edit: don't you go and play the anti Polish card.

>^..^<

M-G (how brave they are)
Ironside 50 | 11,042
6 Aug 2010 #68
What must I, or for that matter MG - dare?

make definitive moral judgements.
Polish history was biased because of communist regime - soviet occupation !
So, books you could read but those books could lie about certain issues !

there were quite a few Polish jews serving in the division as well

so what?

But I refuse to accept your Dmowski-edition of Polish history.

boo!

I can't help thinking that if they were Polish soldiers rather than Dutch ones, you (and if not you, that would no doubt be Harry) would have put forward the case as an example of the military force being coward in face of the enemy.

exactly my thought , and those events are recent and there no many unknown facts or issues!
What about events which occurred 60 year ago, and were distorted by 40 year of commie propaganda.
I hope that at last now you will get a gist of what I mean and my position - you cannot come and make judgement, who the hell you think you are Mahatma Gandhi ?

For me is a very arrogant position !

I have studied the matter quite thoroughly

Mahatma Gandhi mu ass !:DDD
I-S
sobieski 107 | 2,128
6 Aug 2010 #69
IS, you would not hot have your personal copy of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" in your bookcase? Perhaps a shared one with Nasz Dziennik?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
6 Aug 2010 #70
no, he has a simple case of denial;)
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
7 Aug 2010 #71
Indeed. It's actually pretty sad.

'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Well, everybody knows that's a forgery.

Let's just assume Iron is a sad person.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
guzzler 1 | 88
7 Aug 2010 #72
M-G that might be the Dutch view of what happened but not the true facts, King Billy as the Ulster Orange men call him. Invaded Britain with the help of seven English protestant politicians known as the Seven Immortals. One of them being Winston Churchill's ancestor, James11 was William's father-in law and uncle, and William was married to Mary James daughter, and Williams first cousin. The reason for the Invasion was James wife had a baby boy, which knocked Mary out of line for the succession for the throne. He arrived in Britain with an army of 16000 men,and was joined with an other army supplied by the English traitors. The rightful King was deposed he went to Ireland to raise an army, and was defeated at the Battle OF THE BOYNE. William was crowned King of England, and one of his first royal acts, was to sign a law that no catholic would ever be Prime Minister of England.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
7 Aug 2010 #73
sobieski:
'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Well, everybody knows that's a forgery.

I think the cross aliens and IS do believe it is the true word of their God.
Nationalistic simpletons taking over Krakowskie these days.

P.S. I think Lech is great beer, especially when drunk cold.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
7 Aug 2010 #74
P.S. I think Lech is great beer, especially when drunk cold.

me too;)
Ironside 50 | 11,042
8 Aug 2010 #75
IS, you would not hot have your personal copy of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" in your bookcase? Perhaps a shared one with Nasz Dziennik?

I know now that you are a complete moron, any arguments ?

no, he has a simple case of denial;)

Fake Ukrainian :)

Well, everybody knows that's a forgery

Really ? Any prove?

IS do believe it is the true word of their God.

kiss my back side - you plummeting fool!

Nationalistic simpletons

you mean that your simpletons wherever they may be are better ? ups ! you are simpleton yourself !

Let's just assume Iron is a sad person.

Hey! let's assume that I have different views ! I see you cannot stand that !
nott 3 | 594
8 Aug 2010 #76
Harry, get a life. Wank yourself, or what.

Ironside: Who knows worth and value of polish traditions and history?

Welcome to the 21st century. These things are not important anymore in the big world out there.

Says a historian.

History, MG, teaches people things. It is, like, what makes a difference between savagery and civilisation. You learn what people did, you think about it, and maybe you do not do stupid things what they did, or maybe you do wise things that they did. You keep old books, you read old philosophers, you don't have to invent the wheel again. Think about it. At your leisure.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,393
8 Aug 2010 #77
William was crowned King of England, and one of his first royal acts, was to sign a law that no catholic would ever be Prime Minister of England.

A note to M-G: And despite it being so politically incorrect, this law is still in force ...

A question for M-G: Even if you count the British as well as the Dutch among the most mature nations on this planet, with their national identities so well and firmly established, why should this law restrict any prospective British Prime Ministers to be non-Catholic ones only? I can't help thinking, MareGaea, that if a law prevented a Polish p-r-o-t-e-s-t-a-n-t Prime Minister (actually, there was such one in Poland after 1989) from taking office, either you or Harry would constantly be putting forward such a case as one illustrating how backward and old-fashioned the Polish are in confrontation with the modern and progressive Western Europe? Don't you think that the British, politically speaking of course, anti-Catholic identity would not have been sufficiently established to say good-buy to this anachronic act of William King of England?
sobieski 107 | 2,128
8 Aug 2010 #78
IS, some additional glorious facts in your history:

- The Konfederacja Targowicka, where basically your aristocracy sold the country to the Russians.You have to be proud of that
- The invasion by the Polish Army of Czechslovakia on 1 October 1938, in coordination and cooperation with Nazi Germany. Occupying the Czech district of Cieszyn
- The Kielce Pogrom
king polkakamon - | 544
8 Aug 2010 #79
they would never have been a match for the advancing Serbian army and to start fighting with them,

They just could have said no.They said yes.But Serbs knew it anyway that they would not resist.
Ironside 50 | 11,042
8 Aug 2010 #80
A question for M-G:

Don't expect an answer M-G says that is not the same - and you should take his word for this - because he says so!

sobieski
no, arguments...:D do you think you could make me tic when I know what a moron you are ?
nott 3 | 594
8 Aug 2010 #81
- The Konfederacja Targowicka, where basically your aristocracy sold the country to the Russians.You have to be proud of that

Well, I can try and be proud of Konfederacja Barska. For whatever it's worth.

- The invasion by the Polish Army of Czechslovakia on 1 October 1938, in coordination and cooperation with Nazi Germany. Occupying the Czech district of Cieszyn

Get some historical background first... It's been already done here.

- The Kielce Pogrom

Right. Poles murdered Jews. For the whole day, right under the eye of the Soviet authorities who innocently had slipped the rumour that Jews kidnapped a child. And the unreasoning mob wisely chose to kill rabbis instead of apparatchiks. Stands to reason, the rabbis drink babies blood, and the Soviets bought us freedom, everybody knows that.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
8 Aug 2010 #82
no, arguments...:D do you think you could make me tic when I know what a moron you are ?

I think the Old Marshal would spit in your face and Dmowski would be proud of you. Cold Lech as well I think.
As the cross aliens and the PIS electorate and Polska B - all the same - you all should be proud of the reputation you are giving this country.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
8 Aug 2010 #83
M-G that might be the Dutch view of what happened but not the true facts

Well, you had some trouble with them Catholic kings, didn't you? William 3 was invited by the English to be their king as they couldn't stand their rightful king anymore and wanted to prevent what happened to Charles 1.

>^..^<

M-G (Stuarts?)
Ironside 50 | 11,042
8 Aug 2010 #84
I think the Old Marshal would spit in your face and Dmowski would be proud of you. Cold Lech as well I think.

I'm sure that both would be relived that such people like myself still exist.

As the cross aliens and the PIS electorate and Polska B - all the same - you all should be proud of the reputation you are giving this country.

What reputation? Are you really Belgian ?
Well, for once people like you should think about your own reputation.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
8 Aug 2010 #85
I think the Old Marshal would spit in your face and Dmowski would be proud of you. Cold Lech as well I think.

I'm sure that both would be relived that such people like myself still exist.

Really? The Marshal was all in favour of the old Commonwealth...the emancipation of the minorities. Actually I think he would have got along quite well with Bismarck. The same sense of pragmatism.

Dmowski would be proud of you. Hoess also I think.

What is interesting...Ask any Pole which of his/her neighbours he likes - that will be the Slovaks and Hungarians. Nobody likes the Czechs. The uncanny thing is - in the whole of Central Europe only the Czechs did not support the Holocaust. The only nation without an antisemitic tradition. Poland's friends actively participated.
Ironside 50 | 11,042
8 Aug 2010 #86
Really?

really!

The Marshal was all in favour of the old Commonwealth...the emancipation of the minorities.

Yeah! Within the borders from 1772.

Dmowski would be proud of you. Hoess also.

Dmowski i Hess? Do understand what you read?

I think.

No, you don't !

Ask any Pole which of his/her neighbours he likes

It BS you cannot like country, people, individuals you have met ...that more like it!
This question about county's like -dislike is all about public imagination :)
sobieski 107 | 2,128
8 Aug 2010 #87
The Marshal was all in favour of the old Commonwealth...the emancipation of the minorities.

Yeah! Within the borders from 1772.

The Old Marshal was very much in favour of a representative government. He promoted the emancipation of the Jewish people. Does not that hurt a rabid antisemite as you?

Aha by the way - Your adored Polish Blue Police was selling their Jewish compatriots to the Germans wholesale, and making a profit out of it as well.

In Brussels the roundup of Jewish people failed because the police refused to cooperate.
Commies no doiubt, all of them :)))
Ironside 50 | 11,042
8 Aug 2010 #88
Does not that hurt a rabid antisemite as you?

What the heck are you talking about ? You are some kind of retard are you ?

our adored Polish Blue Police was selling their Jewish compatriots to the Germans wholesale, and making a profit out of it as well.

really, any prove to support your claims ?

What your point anyway? Ah! I checked your profile - company Troll&Troll - so what your recent screen name trollop ?

I-S (troll on the roll )
Crow 147 | 9,307
8 Aug 2010 #89
Nobody likes the Czechs.

Not truth. Skordisci likes Boii
King Sobieski 2 | 716
9 Aug 2010 #90
Nobody likes the Czechs. The uncanny thing is - in the whole of Central Europe only the Czechs did not support the Holocaust. The only nation without an antisemitic tradition. Poland's friends actively participated.

there were collaborators:
radio.cz/en/article/117157


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