Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans.

Indeed. Leaving aside that this means that neither country is pursuing long-term goals that are detrimental to each other, it also means that both desire the same things on many issues. Which allows for greater economic dependence and cooperation on key issues like the Ukraine war.

Both are proud countries, both are economically strong. There's no reason that German companies shouldn't buy key businesses in Poland or that Polish companies shouldn't buy key businesses in Germany.

I suspect Poland may become a powerhouse economically and its strategic position may grow more important as time goes on. Polish companies may well become major employers west of the border.

*nods*

And this time living in the border region would become an advantage....who knows, the whole border region would profit and flourish!

Sounds like they're going to get rashes.

I'd say so, and of course the Poland/Belarus border region which is important for logistics.

Poland's borders with Czech and Germany are important too; many opportunities for Polish businesses to operate on the other side of the border.

@Tacitus
I Don'T think that is the case. Would be nice if you could name them.

Both countries want to live in peace in prosperity, dont want war in Europe and want to increase trade with each other. Both countries are crucial members of EU and NATO and have identified Russia's Putin as the main threat to their security. Successive governments are most likely to follow those lines.

.....I guess that is Iron's problem here....two years back Poland and Germany DID have quite opposed policies concerning Russia's Putin...our "Wandel durch Handel" still full in swing, Nordstream being build...

Tac....it will take us YEARS to live that down, we have to accept that!

Interesting article about that cruel awakening:

welt.de/wirtschaft/plus237781839/Wandel-durch-Handel-Wie-Deutschland-der-epochale-Irrtum-trifft.html

Hopefully we learn the right lessons from that and don't repeat them anylonger with China....

Well, one could argue that the views on Russia differed, but the actual policies not as much, particulary when it came to buying Russian fossil fuels. Poland was smart enough to diversify its' ressource in the long run, but faced the same problems being cut off from Russian supplies. Both countries had the same aim in their approach towards Russia: To preserve the European peace order. Poland had the better understanding of Russia which is something German politicians need to learn from.

And Russia has now been identified as the main threat in the new national security strategy, so there is certainly a lot in common in the future.

@Tacitus
Right, but those are platitudes and generalities. How you going to achieve all that matters. It is possible that a policy that brings prosperity for one doesn't bear much sense for other.

Germany wants to to be in charge of Poland affairs and uses what influence it has to defend German businesses. Greece example springs to mind.

Is not about Russia,it about pretending.
You had a nice deal going and it looked pretty good from Germany point of view, ambition to play a role with the rest of EU on the world stage as a separate power.

If Ukraine would have fallen in a few days. Russia Germany deal would stand.
Is not you were duped, or stupid your plan just fell through due to unforseen factor.

This is sadly likely.

One other issue of German-Polish cooperation is that the profits tend to flow in one direction. I'd like to see far more flowing the other way.

@Ironside


And this impression is based on what exactly?


You mean when Germany bailed out Greece after it turned out that the Greeks had falsified their accounts and spent the money on vanity projects like the Olympics and generous welfare programs? At a time when e.g. the Baltic states were in favour of throwing Greece to the wolves? Yeah, that was really ruthless... .


Let us be real here. If Kiev had fallen in a couple of days, everyone would have gone back to buisness. No one would have wanted to sabotage their economy for a lost cause. Poland might have intensified their attempts to diversify their energy supply, but they would nevertheless continued to receive Russian energy for a few more years at least.

@jon357


How do you measure that? If I look at how trade has developed between those countries, I'd hardly find that justifiable.

Poland exported more to Germany in 2021 than vice versa.

oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-country/pol/partner/deu#:~:text=1995-,In%202021%2C%20Poland%20exported%20%2489.4B%20to%20Germany.,and%20Seats%20(%242.31B).

Cut down on your quotes please

As you know, who owns the key industries is important. And of course, Poland is more than agriculture.

Is there a precedent anywhere for capital not flowing to the centre?

Industries look for cheap labour to raise their profits....in that case having a neighbour with cheaper labour costs is a rival for every high labour cost country....industries and jobs moving....

Something Poland will learn too in the case of Ukraine, should it become a member of the EU and open it's borders for people and goods!

@Tacitus
Constant lectures, activities, meddling and finger pointing that Germany 🇩🇪 does so well. As well we know better attitude that would annoy a Saint.
No the time when you bailed your own banks which knew very well about irregularities and still went ahead with the deal. All that issue arise because Germany pushed with introduction of euros, another idea that works f9r some and not so much for others.

Sure, everyone would have been doing it. Yet, exclusive German idea allowed and enabled Putin to prepare his army and all the rest. Due to Germany pouring money technology into Mf Russia.

How would you guarantee security for 🇵🇱? To claim Poland as your sphere of influence might not be enough. You have no army, if Russia would rengate on that agreement it may take Poland by force.

What would you do? Protest?

@Bratwurst Boy
BB there no longer a lot of cheap labourers or young people in Poland. That done. We are to be almost in your predicament in this department. Funny you didn't want all those workers 20myears ago, so Britain took them. Now you are reduced to suck in Syrian doctors from Bangladesh:).

....if those doctors would come at least.....


That Iron Dome from Israel would do it, wouldn't it! But not before 2025.....

(IRON Dome....Iron, heh:)

Sorry, we nicked them first.


We're all victims of both our history and mediocrity too. You are, we are and they are.

I'd still like to see key businesses in Germany owned by Polish companies and suspect that idea would be less popular in Germany than Poland.

Yes, some people would like us to believe that "capital has no nationality" whilst it so often turns out that it has.

I'll never forget how the EU drove Polish shipyards to bankruptcy by demanding that they return state subsidies whilst German and French shipyards had been receiving state subsidies for ages without any consequences. I remember how shocking it was for me to hear from Janusz Lewandowski that "in the EU some countries are allowed to do more than others" (all animals are equal but...) It was a huge disillusionment for many people in Poland, but still it didn't put Poles off supporting the EU (92% of support for EU membership must be one of the highest in the entire Union).

It's under 50 percent now, thanks to the 'rule of law' interference and fines and the mandatory migrant push.

Could you show some data?

Because that 92% was in a research from 2022...

Where are you taking this bullsh1t from? lol
It was 85% in May 2023 according to CBOS poll:

bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Polacy-zdecydowanie-popieraja-czlonkostwo-w-UE-8538097.html

It was a survey with different wording that was talked about on wpolityce/wpolsce, telewzja republika etc. the question was along of the lines of do you support the EU in it's current form/the actions of the EU, rather than membership question.

But GefreiterKania gave the percentage for how many Poles support the membership of Poland in the EU, so your response was misleading.


Do you have a link to that poll results?


According to that CBOS poll (CBOS is an official polling institution in Poland, btw) 63% of people in Poland think that Poland should withdraw some changes in Polish judiciary in order to unblock money from the EU fund. What that other poll had to say about it (if anything)?

@Paulina
What does it matter? You need to have deep feel for those factors to grasp meaning of such polls.
In this case it doesn't mean much, I am against Polexit at the moment too.
The thing is such moods can flip out of the blue in an instant to the opposite.

By the way guys, very complex issues without a good solution or a good answer you treat like an easy black and white quiz problem.

Whilst simple moral based (or ethical) based factors with an obvious answer are needlessly being drag astray.
You should reflect on your ways.

"What does it matter"? I'd say that in a democracy it does matter what people think and want, don't you think? o_O


Which "moods can flip out of the blue in an instant to the opposite"? About the membership in the EU? lol What are you talking about?


What on Earth are you talking about?

I'd say so too, and indeed politicians in developed societies spend a lot of time and money on gauging the public mood.

Argument for a Democracy is valid in my opinion when most of society compromises of baptised citizens, due to the difficult convincing of anyone having the Holy Ghost more then another, there votes should count equally in that regard.

Having a state/society turning away from Christ and larger portion not being baptised creates a risk with the decision making process for the good of the country and it's people (Respublica anyone?)

So it is only natural that Poland becomes more authoritarian with increased contact with the west

And because of being run by an ultra-Catholic party - yes, that makes perfect sense, Grunni... ;D

Now, please, explain it to me - how is it possible
that the West isn't authoritarian, but somehow it makes Poland authoritarian? :D




;D