Polish-Ukranian roots and genes

This is my first post.
Not too long ago i read a thread about how Ukranians are really Polish. I don't exactly believe this but found this interesting subject, Haplotype.

(wikipedia)
The term haplotype is a contraction of the term 'haploid genotype'. In genetics, a haplotype (from the Greek: ἁῦ, haploûs, "onefold, single, simple") is a combination of alleles at multiple loci that are transmitted together on the same chromosome. Haplotype may refer to as few as one locus or to an entire chromosome depending on the number of recombination events that have occurred between a given set of loci.

The genetic marker for most people of slavic origin is the Haplotype r1a1.

Anyways, it appears that Polish and Ukranian genes are pretty damn similar. As far as the frequency of this gene is concerned it appears very high in both Polish and Ukranian people.

I also found it interesting that this gene appears in our German cousins (not in high frequency but appears none the less) and goes as far as Iceland.

I'd like to hear some comments on this. Thanks.

Interesting.
My father was born in Kowel, Ukraine (then Polish) in 1930. Shortly after his birth, his mother sold all the land that her father didn't gamble away on horses and moved the family to outskirts of Warsaw.

My father never considered himself anything else but Polish.

It's like saying that Poles are really Ukrainians. Our genes are similar because we share ancestry and we intermingled for centuries. We are still separated by culture and language.

Ukrainians are genteic mix between criminal Poles, Russians , poor farmers and Tatars and Turks.

Honey, Ukraine were repopulated by Poles from Polish Kingdom after 1569 when Ukraine become part of the Crown, being before a part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

Some territories which constitute nowadays Ukraine, were integral part of Polish Kingdom since 1367, such as Lwów with surrounding areas and Podole.

So, it has nothing to do with roots, immigrants from Poland made Ukraine - if put it in simple terms!

Ironside
Er... It was already inhabited, you know.

Northern Indians have almost 50% genetic similarity with Ukrainians too. Ukraine was under Polish control for a while, and as a Russian poet said, they started to change, take on polish traits; assimilation or inter-mingling?...

really ?
I hate to explain something to somebody so evidently ignorant of the subject.
let's put it this way - very sparsely populated,


Don't know, this genetic research is new untested thing, is not that northern Indians and Aryans in Europe migrated from the same geographical area - one part into present day indie and second into Europe.

But OP is talking about something else than obscure "genetic similarity" he talks about h r1a1
is something entirely different as a measure of genetic similarity.
Are you saying that h r1a1 is encountered in northern India as well?

And you are a mix between a b*tch in heat and a castrated mule.


So scientists are not sure about where R1a1a originated and if they even pinpointed exactly the region, it would be still 1,500 years ago where neither of the two nations existed.

Apes share 99% of the their genome with humans. So how much do you expect to be a difference between two neighbors, not separated by seas, forests, mountains,...?


Ignorant are you:


In 1200:
Venice - a state-port, business center of the world - 80,000
London! - 20,000-25,000
Paris - c.80,000
According to Mottek, 10-15% of Germans lived in cities, the rest - in the countryside in 1100-1200 years. Since Kievan Rus' was one of the strongest kingdoms in Europe, not even mentioning military deeds, king Yaroslaw the Wise married his daughters out into other royal families:


Two urban centers like L'viv and Kholm (the second was renamed Chelm and now is in Poland) were built by Ukrainian king Danylo Halyckiy in 12th century before Polish barbarians invaded the country.

Let's logically assume the same population distribution. Then, make a calculation: 300 urban centers with an average let's say even 3,000 people = 900,000 urban dwellers. The total population will then be c. 6 million people (10% of European population!!!) It doesn't seem sparesely populated.

pol-and.eu/EN/History10-12Century.html


Looks like little villages ;) in comparison to Kijiv and Chernigiv. Compare Gniezno


to Kijiv


Newspapers like "Lomza news" often make similar claims and I see Ironside is an active subscriber. Try to look more extensively and no, Poles didn't come to some bare fields and didn't bring culture as many of you imagine: they came into well developped country and more then sure borrowed a lot from its culture.

'The Legendary Rus cities':


Orest Subtelny, Ukraine: a history, Toronto University Press- the book you recommended ;).


Kievan Rus wassparsely populated in comparison to western countries.


Paul Robert Magosci, A history of Ukraine, Toronto University Press

Another quote from Subtelny:



Ruthenians didn't differ much from other 'barbarians':


Vladimir I of Kiev
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I_of_Kiev


The Crusades, Helen J. Nicholson, Greenwood

Was sparsely populated in comparison to any territory after 1238, when Tatar's invasions and domination started.

And the year the chronicles date to? I am glad you checked the book out :)


So I even underestimated the population of Kievan Rus'. Now:
25 million people died in just under five years between 1347 and 1352. Estimated population of Europe from 1000 to 1352.
1000 38 million
1100 48 million
1200 59 million
1300 70 million
1347 75 million
1352 50 million

Kievan Rus




;)
Ironside, notice the location of Vistula (Wisła). It was almost at the border ;) Where are you from exactly in Poland? Maybe, your ancestors were proud residents of Kievan Rus' and you as a result are not really a Pole ;)

Where I'm from and where my ancestors are from are different questions!
why don't you put some more blots on the map?
being a rusin in medieval times and latter also meant only religion - orthodox religion

I'm glad that you've changed your mind. The number of population is irrelevant.


I don't think so called 'colonization' of Ukraine was state sponsored. It was free civilian migration to the sparsely populated areas.
And your magnates needed many hands to work the land. From where do you think they imported workforce? ;) Resettling of Ruthenian peasants would not have been enough.

Kievan Rus conquered a lot of land until 11th/12th century, including territories not inhabited by eastern Slavic tribes:




There are some interesting fragments in it. You wouldn't like it ;)


Subtelny doesn't give this information. It must be the peak of Kievan Rus' achievements.

If I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend it ;) He writes in a beautiful narrative and even though he has some national inclinations, he still remains very objective and this I like :)


Very subjective ;)

we all come from africa... we all the same, some us stayed brown, some us went white, some of us developed funny eyes. some of us went so dark they called them 'black' people. the original people were similar to asian/indian people today. whether you like it or not... humanity came from africa.... and civilisation came from India. Poland and Ukraine took thousands of years for the ice age to melt and people to stop becoming cave-man and start stealing culture and society from asian and muslim cultures. This is why Slavic people are very backward and have copied cultures from the countries around them.

hope that's shut you all up??

you are all Sarmats

Nasty, but it's very likely.

Muslim? You are aware of when Islam began, no?
This is probably the dumbest stuff I have ever read on PF concerning history

Come on. That's not nice.

Ukrainians are fine people.

and smart too, which cannot be said about some of the Polish posters on PF;P

that just shows that all this fighting and differentiating is so silly.
Blond hair and blue eyes is genetically disposable... get over it.

mutual fight IS silly. But,...

Sarmats deserve to have right to restore freedom of their civilization

otherwise, they should fight for that right. Why would some others have right, while some have restricted rights?

so, as first step in your liberation, you should both support Serbians. Officially

Not likely with the current Polish administration, Crow. It seems like Erdogan is more interested in Serbia than Tusk is.

He meant Cossacks Ill presume


He probably meant cultures whom turned to be Muslim afterwords I guess
Although he is silly presuming that we all come from African has anything to do with Polish-Ukrainians roots and genes to do. More of human roots I say. If it was true

A single haplotype doesn't necessarily mean that populations are the same. R1a1 is BARELY enough to categorize anyone as slavic. Here is a map of it:



It's most common is Poland, and is just as common in Ukraine as it is in the Mediterranean....so no go. I can tell you that Greeks and Turks don't look like Ukrainians even though they practically have the same frequencies of R1a1.

While Polish people and Ukrainians do share genes these are mere general slavic genes. However they don't for example have any Tatar Haploids which are found in about 64% of the Polish population. Haplotypes are elementary genetics. It is rather several distinct haplogroups that characterize an ethnicity in particular...as opposed to a single one which can barely label a family of genepools such as "slavic".

could you elaborate, please ?

I'm also interested. How can Poles have more Tatar haploids than Ukrainians? Crimea is IN Ukraine!

to be able to talk of Slavic genetics we must take in consideration that we speak of ethos that covering biggest percentage of lend masses on the planet Earth.

what this practically mean? It means that Slavs represent ethos/race that live on vast geographical territory and live there, obviously, for very long period of time.

So, we must be aware of diversity of Slavic genetics same way as we are aware of diversities in Slavic languages. Simple, local conditions inevitable affected primordial Slavic gene pool and added some specific genetic elements due to natural environment.

for example, Slav from Bulgaria MUST differ (physically) from the Slav in Czech Rep. no matter that both of them share common genetic origin. They don`t need foreign influence to be different. No, they simple live on vast territory and in different micro climatic conditions. Their physical differences (lighter/darker variations) are natural and that mean normal. Still, we can found common genetic markers that speaks of their common origin (it is confirmed by genetics!) BUT, its the absolute nonsense if somebody seeks for absolute genetic overlapping. As i explained, it is impossible and unnatural.


yes. Modern day Polish government abandoned Polish national interests and actually helping NATO (read Germanic/Turkish in particular case) occupation of Serbian lands- traditional Polish sphere of influence on Balkan.

So, we have increased Islamic/Turkish presents in the region. Its absolutely abominable to me that official Poland (no matter Serbian resistance) support that but, that`s how it is.

Are you aware that Poland has practically shifted over west since it's original founding over one-thousand years ago, dragging the populous with?