Poland's economic future?

also there are no direct subsidies to coal - the only significant form of subsidy is to retired miners which has low impact on the prices of coal (retired miners don't dig out coal you know)

It's similar in science.

There is a comprehensive report here: odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/resource-documents/11518.pdf

Here are the headlines - pay attention the coal-fired power - subsidy phase out: very poor

Rating: poor
Coal mining - subsidy phase out

you know next to nothing about Polish energy sector Casual simple as that - and you bring up some stupid simplistic headlines

I see. Not a very convincing way of countering numbers and figures, though, is it?

My previous post seems to have been edited by moderators, removing most of the content (but it's in the report linked to). They're not "simplistic headlines", they're an analysis. All you're coming back with is anal...

ok you want figures - after Rzeczpospolita article : WISE (Warsaw Institute of Economic Studies) estimated that in 2012 an average taxpayer paid about 100 PLN for all subsiedies that the coal mining sector receives (none of which are direct subsidies as I already mentioned) - that makes about 200 PLN per a household - in Poland more than 80 per cent households are heated in this or other way by burning coal - let's be generous and say than an avarage family that uses some kind of coal powered heating received a 250 PLN subsidy in the price of coal - an average cost of heating a 50 square meter apartment in Poland exceeds 2000 PLN yearly - again most of the households are heated using coal in this way or another - this means that even without subsidies coal is probably the cheapest source of energy to heat households - because the subsidies lower its price not much more than 10 per cent - gas heating in Poland is almost twice as expensive if you ever wondered and electric heating is even more expensive

Nonsense - it's a lifestyle choice. If we take a hundred kg of coal and compare it's BTU to the same cost in natural gas....it's obvious which is the more efficient.

Some poster (Dolno I think) said the government really cares for its' citizens. If they really did, there would be more sizable grants in place to swop to gas, and heavy penalties like in Western Europe for burning coal. And the miners can go **** themselves if they don't like it.

If people can't afford to heat their houses without making the air unbreathable throughout Silesia and the cities, they should consider downsizing their property.

In the meantime, Poland seems to enjoy being stuck in a Victorian age. If it wasn't so dangerous it might be amusing.

As for Belchatow and it's brown coal powering 40 percent of Poland's energy needs, well, that's a total environmental disaster that reduces lifespan in Krakow and further east downwind. But hey, the government really cares for its' people right?

let's try a different approach to the same question - Poland mined about 70 million tonnes of bituminous acoal (the in 2016 - the estimates of all subsidies (which are overblown If you ask me) are 6 billion PLN yearly recently - that gives about 85 PLN a tonne of coal - a tonne of coal for individual consumers is about 800 PLN at the moment - the mininig of lignite is not subsidied but lignite is not quite suitable for heating households - anymore questions?


you are very well informed indeed - Bełchatów is over 200 km north of Kraków and prevailing winds in Poland are WSW - so yeah Bełchatów is really a disaster for Kraków (I guess you also think that Bełchatów is the cause of Kraków's smog, don't you - well then there must be even more smog all the way from Kraków to Beałchatów which is like 20 per cent of rural Poland - I'm not sure you have ever been to rural Poland then)

ok the cost of gas heating that I said is almost 2 as much as coal heating pertains to propane-butane installations - the natural gas installations are much more economical - they are 25 to 20 per cent more expensive than those powered with coal - the biggest problem is that there are big areas in the country where natural gas network is not available - most rural areas - in the big cities where district heating was implemented natural gas heating makes little sense - also you have to take into account that we have our own coal and we need to import natural gas and after the Nord Stream construction we are in a precarious situation where Russians can stop supplying us with natural gas any moment (it will be even more pronounced if Nord Stream 2 is built)


o sure - downsize yours to set an example

there is also the issue of price fluctuations of natural gas - Poland is bound by contract with Russia where the price is partly indexed against the prices of crude oil - if the price of oil rises we pay more for natural gas to Russia - I think the estimates in the prices of natural gas against coal were that I quoted were made in 2016 when natural gas prices hit the record low (along oil prices) - in 2017 natural gas for households was about 10 per cent more expensive than in 2016 - there is little chance that oil prices will be as low as in 2016 any time soon - and Polish-Russian gas contract expires in 2022 - the current government doesn't plan to sign a new long-term contract with Russia - so the future natural gas prices in Poland remain an unknown

Huh ? It's stinking in Krak during winter because people are burning garbage. Nothing to do with Bełchatów. Besides, modern coal powered power plants are quite "clean". Most of those operating today are shyt because they are decades old. Fortunately the new ones are being built :)))

Do things properly and in the height of winter it can cost less than 1000 a month to heat even a 4 or 5 hundred square metre house by gas. The problem is efficiency and heat retention. Grants should be spent on correcting these and then even a cheap dual function boiler costs peanuts to run.

I corrected myself as to how expensive is heating with natural gas - also I mentioned that natural gas network is not available in most rural areas - some people heat their houses with propane-butane installations in rural areas and this is much more expensive than coal heating - I realize that heating with gas (especially natural gas) is convenient (clean and almost service-free) but still coal remains the cheapest option and there are lots of people who have no choice but to use it

Then wouldn't it be a good idea for a govt to invest in giving people alternatives, by investing in the infrastructure for gas, or giving grants for conversion to electric boilers? Most other European countries did this decades ago, and also passed laws banning the burning of coal in cities and towns, to prevent smog and the associated deaths from air pollution.

And be reliant on Russia and have to pay any price demanded,


It costs me 4000zl to run a electric boiler far too much for the average Polish household who live mainly in one room and only use one light bulb.

Electricity in Poland is very expensive.

That's not true shirley - I mean Dolno? If it weren't for government "experts" buying futures at stupid prices then there would be no problem. The world price for Russian gas is projected by the IMF to be around 4.5 dollars/1000 cubic metres to 2025, and the level of technological supply supports this. Wars would change that, but then you could sit under the table and point your arse in Russia's direction anyway:)

Burning gas here, and warm as toast. Dog appreciates it too.


Well, if they did, the prices would be cheaper wouldn't they? Even I can see the simple economics in that....
And of course Belchatow pollutes Krakow. Didn't you know that? Sarcasm is all very well, in it's place:) But this is not a laughing matter is it?

Thats great for you city slickers but the cost of running pipelines out to the sticks where I live is not economically viable. we have no sewers or mains water for gods sake.

Me and the cats are happy here burning smokeless coke and wood with a moisture content of 18%, no different to what I did in the UK in the 70s.

Poland`s economic future is in closest possible economic ties with Central, Eastern and South-East European Slavic and Slavic-friendly countries. Then, in openings to the investments from entire world, on the equal bases. Let Japanese, French, Chinese, British, Russian, USA, Arabic, Israely, etc money come to Poland. Let all pay taxes to Poland, while Poland monitor on strategic balance of its own interests and those foreign investments.

yes yes - you know everything about Polish geogryphy Dougpol - it's almost as if you said that if you fart it affects people in Zakopane


it all costs money - big money - the money Poland doesn't have - that's why I told you to appeal to the EU for subsidies

from another point of view - ok let's give grants for converting to electric heating - how many people will actually do it when they know their heating bills will double as a result

lot's of people in Poland complain that goverment is spending too much and living off credit (mainly total oposition supporters) - and you want it to spend even more

again we have our own coal while we need to import gas for the time being from Russia - it was irresponsible to increase reliance on gas for heating in the situatio where Russia had a monopoly - also Poland didn't have money for extending the infrastructure

there are also other priorities for this goverment and Poles at large - roads are more of a pressing issue than the gas network - the smog problem seriously affects only a couple of areas in Poland (Kraków, Warsaw and Upper Silesia) - if smog was a national issue it would be a serious political issue too - it isn't


electricity in Poland is very expensive relative to household incomes - in absolute figures it is cheaper than in most EU countries


only because Poland started diversifying it's gas supplies - including plans to built Baltic Pipe: a pipeline that will connect us to Danish and Norwegian gas systems; and the construction of the gas terminal in świnoujście of course - the current gas contract with Russia has us paying at least 10 per cent more for Russian gas than most EU countries

We cannot allow Russia to hold us to economic ransom when it comes to strategic resources.

Main Poland`s problem is isolation from rest of the Slavic world. Its the crucially weak point of Poland`s policy.

If Poland already improved relations with rest of the Visegrad group and if Poland established strategic relationship with Serbia, Poland would have normal relations with Russia and great Chinese and Japanese investments. Then, when consolidate on east, Poland could hope to consolidate her status on the west of Europe. Exactly what Hungary doing and increasingly well balancing.

"Polands economic future" they will keep being what they're. Cheap labour, their women will keep doing prostitution all around the EU, Norwegians and English will keep snatching their babies, and polish government will stay corrupted and filled up with crooks thinking of what to steal next.

Anyways that's the plan and for the past 20 years nothing have changed

Meanwhile in the real world, regarding corruption Poland is ranked 29th in the world, ahead most of EU. On GDP per capita Poland is 44th, several places below Israel, Spain and Italy, should take 6-7 to reach them :)))

That's the real world statistics, ****. Don't think all the Polish woman have the same job as your mum.

I just copied what the news papers are saying about future of Poland. They said Poland will be main supplier of cheap labour and prostitution for the UK for the at least next 40 years.

No brain or experience of living in Poland to make up your own mind, not to worry your dole application in Wales just might come through, you could but a gameboy or something to keep you better entertained.

So? Did you ever consider that Polish people like it that way and don't want to emulate everything the West does?

Poland's economic future is very simple - higher growth rates than Germany, France, and basically every single Western EU country, more and more FDI, 4% steady GDP growth, no implementation of the stagnant Euro, more trade with V4, US and China (Hungary leads EU for trade deals with China - Poland is catching up), a big middle finger to Merkel and the unelected commissars of the EU, EU funds flowing in till at least 2020, ever rising property values, low taxes esp on real estate, ever increasing incomes with ever decreasing unemployment levels, no ME migrants and soccer teams of kids to support, so basically a majority European Christian wonderland where Poles can live in peace, prosperity, and not have to deal with the terrorism, sexual assaults, stagnation, liberal neurosis, years of state of emergency, or any of the bs of Western Europe. Polska dla Polakow!

Perhaps for a few more years, but probably not long enough to catch up with Western Europe before the effects of demographic decline sets in.


This is of course nonsense. Chinese trade with Eastern Europe is tiny compared with the economic ties between China and Western Europe.


The EU commissars enjoy as much democratic legitimacy as any minister in a democratic elected government.

Lucky I don't eat Big Macs. I would have choked on it, I'm laughing so much.
Well, there are tears anyway. For my second home. Prosperity my arse.


Are you absolutely sure that you have an education Dirk? Can we see your qualifications, or maybe your pedigree certificate? You are of the human race, right? Only hools and skins chant those pathetic words - I had you down as better than that.

This is a statement regularly made by people who don't really know anything about how the EU functions and usually don't even know the difference between the EU Commission, the European Parliament and think that the Council of Europe is part of it. They also couldn't tell you if asked, which 'officials' are elected or how that election process works. So for the information of all those who are ignorant of these facts and don't want to use Google to find the answers:

The EU Commission is in charge of the budget and funding. The President of the Commission is elected. Candidates are nominated by the heads of state of the 28 nations. Then the Parliament (which comprises MEPs elected by the people of the nation states which make up the EU) votes. The President of the Commission is then selected by majority vote. The President selects 27 members, one from each nation state and the Parliament must approve the overall selection. All decisions subsequently made by the Commission and all new laws proposed by it must be approved by the Parliament which is directly elected by the people of the EU.

It's ironic that in many cases those who protest the loudest about the EU are those who are completely ignorant of how it functions and who in many cases have never even voted for an MEP and probably couldn't tell you the names of their country's representatives in the European Parliament.

@Dougpol1

You already know its Polska Dla Polakow all day long man. It constantly that becomes more and more clear. Poles dont want to become a nation full of migrants from random **** holes. It is our sovereign right and wish to remain the most catholic homogenous nation in eu and the government backs the majority who desire this, similar to israelis, japanesese, saudi, etc desires.

Actually no idk how the eu functions to a tee nor do o care. Most of em are bunch of limousime liberals and shampoo socialists who have zero knowledge about what polish people want. Thankfully polands beating them at every turn. Thats why they cant fine us, cant trigger article 7, cant force us to take in migrants, cant tell us how to run out courts. Poles need to just get the remaining billions till 2020, as affirmed by timmermans, esp if the eu keeps pushing far left diktates. We dont need em after 2020.

And yes timmermans is an unelected commisar. No polish citizen was ever asked to vote for him. Meps yes but def not the ec heads.

**** the eu. Soon all of western europe will be totally invaded by migrants and therell be more mosques than starbucks. Thats when the real patriots will be begging to be liberated and freed from the terror the rapes rhe economic stagnation and the deluge of ninja women and neck beards. Just watch. These people breed like rabbits (yet tend to have a hard tine providing for their kids with the burden falling onto europeans) its only a matter of time. W europe will not be european, but we poles wont allow that to happen to us. We wont import millioms of burdens from overseas.

So why don't Britons say "Britain for the British" and "Let's keep those scummy Poles out"? Same thing..... But we don't tolerate such filth.

The above phrase suggests no foreign investment, just pure bred nationalism, and Poland has always had no problem with taking, but when it gets to giving, she's useless. The phrase is for inbreds Dirk - shirley you can see that?:)


Not necessarily a bad thing. Their milk masquerading as coffee is gash.

Don't they? I think that most of the noise not long ago was just all about that. Maybe worded a tad differently.
Anyways, you commies just take the first place trophy in an award for stupidity and nonsense spreading. Comparing Poles coming into a EU country with some illegal immigrants from all over world. You have no brains or you have no sound structure to your thinking you gimp.

Unless you are a little read preacher, preaching your commie morals which has been proved to absolute crap in the real world you are just to dumb to get it.

The above needs to be read in the context of Polish culture and Polish tradition about which you of course know nought being a dumb twit who was unable to learn the basic of the Polish lingo living in Poland for 27 years.

It has nothing to do with pure ethnic, as some American kid might think, and you evidently.
So stuff it!