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I have a "zero" chance to succeed in Poland - I do not have a degree!


z_darius 14 | 3,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #31
The problem is that this power is without any real basis

It has a real basis. Just as real as it is in life where few do whatever they please.
I can disagree with my boss and open my own business if our disagreements are substantial.
Whether it's fair or not is a topic for another thread.

I dare say your colleagues got you to do all the donkey work. Sucker.

Nah, I wouldn't have allowed that :)
Btw, two of my toughest profs in computer science were Poles. There were projects alright, but not before you could prove you actually knew what it took to approach those projects.
mafketis 20 | 7,331  
6 Apr 2009 /  #32
the child does what the teacher says because he it the teacher, similarly, the adult does what the government / boss says purely because they are the boss.

What Polish people do whatever the government says? The ones in Poland sure don't.
z_darius 14 | 3,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #33
Great point.
Solidarity movement and abolition of communism are just the most recent major examples.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
6 Apr 2009 /  #34
Hard not to agree with that. Headstrong individuals are not in short supply here (yes, I know I know, everywhere).

People can put themselves into certain positions without formal appointments ;) ;)
gumishu 11 | 5,015  
6 Apr 2009 /  #35
Aviation? eh? buying old jets from US,.. helicopters?

well there actually were Polish designed small jets (Iskra, Iryda) and helicopters.
helicopters are still in production I guess (Sokół)

not mentioning smaller aircraft
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
6 Apr 2009 /  #36
What Polish people do whatever the government says? The ones in Poland sure don't.

In your dreams. People here wait for the lights to change before they cross the road, even at 2 in the morning. How many times has the government been in any danger from the people, apart from the Solidarity movement (which took about 40 years to happen)?

Sorry, but getting stupidly drunk during the week, ripping off downloaded music and slagging off the blacks does not constitute civil disorder. Poland has one of the most compliant workforces in the world - anywhere else, the work practises used in this country would have caused a riot.
gumishu 11 | 5,015  
6 Apr 2009 /  #37
MrBubbles you don't know much about post-war Polish history if you say that it took 40 years for Poles to protest
things are different now due to the huge unemployment that this country has seen quite recently and the spectre of which is looming again. It has its roots (the unemployment) of course.
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
6 Apr 2009 /  #38
well there actually were Polish designed small jets (Iskra, Iryda) and helicopters.
helicopters are still in production I guess (Sokół)

Wow! Did Poland really produce them?
z_darius 14 | 3,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #39
How many times has the government been in any danger from the people, apart from the Solidarity movement (which took about 40 years to happen)?

- Poznań 1956
- Entire Country 1970
- Solidarity movement 1980–1989

These were just the major uprisings. The entire period of 1945 - 1989 was a time of major disagreement with the communist government, and that was under circumstances potentially leading to length prison terms or executions in many cases.

As gumishu wrote, you know very little about post WW2 history of Poland.

Wow! Did Poland really produce them?

No, they didn't. Cash problems in 1990.
Iskra was in production though.
frd 7 | 1,399  
6 Apr 2009 /  #40
About Polish schooling system, it's probably different in different places and it depends on different teachers, probably as anywhere else. The only thing that I didn't like about my primary was the narrow mindness of polish literature teachers who were only rewarding students who were following the one and only right way to interpret a poem or a book (imposed by the teacher or "teachers manual"), every original thought was quickly exstinguished..

that was around 8-9 years ago so maybe something changes, but I remember it as a tool to kill creativity and individualism. I heard similar stuff plenty of times from my friends, on the other hand there were planty of teachers who weren't limiting their pupils like that.

As for high school I can only speak for IT education, from what I heard from my friends that were on an exchange with Sokrates/Erazmus they usually stated that abroad teachers are more friendly, there are lots of expensive tools in laboratory classes and due to which they can learn about more advanced technologies then they could in Poland, most of different classes are easier then in Poland and teachers spend more time to explain certain problems. Also different subjects are organised in a witty way so that it's not only just about absorbing knowledge, there was time for some theory and then practise and implementing it in real life situations and then again some theory and so on.

Also teachers get more personal with students.

In Poland there is (usually) a huge gap in relations between students and teachers. After a lecture teachers just hide in their little rooms and that's the end of interaction (it's not a rule but it's often like that). There are classes that are there just for the sake of prolonging the period of work for some old professors who are teaching really dated stuff with the university not wanting to dismiss them ( And that's also a usual cause for students cheating instead of memorizing vintage knowladge which just shouldn't be there anymore especially if it's an IT university ). There's more memorizing stuff and less learning how to use it. For example we had to memorize shitloads of transforms just for the sake of remembering them instead of using them to solve math problems - from what I heard it's totally different in other countries. Some knowledge is always there in the books - why memorizing it when you can always look it up, and problem solving isn't that easy without some practise ( it's also another reason for studens cheating ).

It may look like I'm a devils advocate here, and maybe I am, I admit that I cheated during some exams - through the period of my studying I was choosing subjects that were interesting to me and promising for my future job and I was passing them properly - and cheated at some that were imposed by the IT course at my Uni. I think there's still a gap between polish and f.i. british high school education model. Mainly because of the difference in money that has been pumped into educational system in both of these countries, and because of the post communism roots of the staff. Also methods and selection of subjects tend to be flawed in some Unis.

There are great polish scientists the problem is they are beeing bought by foreign schools to teach and invent - another thing with beeing a poor country.

There also should be a competition in schools, but not as it is right now, it should be a healthy competition, it's not a candy world, you won't always hear "you're a winner" as in US schools - because once you start working you'll hear "you're not a winner, you're a looser" from time to time, there were some who heard that and went berserk shooting at innocent people.. maybe because of the "you're the last winner in the race" model of education.
southern 75 | 7,097  
6 Apr 2009 /  #41
In Greece the system is dog eat dog,you just prepare some years to beat everyone in the final exams and get into competitive university.Hardcore memorization and lots of private lessons to prepare for the exams.The US system with standardized exams is an interesting alternative but I don't have time to explain how it works.
z_darius 14 | 3,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #42
frd

I think this is a well balanced post.

When you consider that Polish IT students do very well in ACM International Collegiate Programming Contests and then get hired by top notch companies around the world then something must be right in the Polish educational system.

This is a quite from you know where, describing the contest:

The ICPC is a team competition. Current rules stipulate that each team consist of three students. (...) Compared to other programming contests (for example, International Olympiad in Informatics), the ICPC is characterized by a large number of problems (8 or more problems in just 5 hours). Another feature is that each team can use only one computer, although teams have three students. This makes the time pressure even greater. Good teamwork and ability to withstand pressure is needed to win.

Polish programmers have been doing exceptionally well in the competition. Warsaw University has an overall 5th position in the World. Not bad for rote learning, huh?
polishcanuck 7 | 462  
6 Apr 2009 /  #43
'it's not what you know but who you know'.

This applies to Poland as well. Everything seems to be arranged "po znajomosci."

I do notice that many Poles simply do not understand that if everyone has a Masters degree, then the degree itself becomes worthless.

True, but the government has to step in change this. Besides, I think the polish magister is not recognised as a master's degree in many countries. It simply serves to point out that the graduate completed "day" studies.

It's simple - you work from monday to friday and study on friday evening (5PM-8PM) saturday and sunday (from 8am to 8PM). Most of things you have to learn on your own at home... many people study like that.

Haha only in poland, esek! Scheduling issues aside, few engineering students would be able to handle your plan in a uni outside of poland (ie here in canada).
z_darius 14 | 3,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #44
Haha only in poland

Really?
So what's that about?

Scheduling issues aside, few engineering students would be able to handle your plan in a uni outside of poland (ie here in canada).

I worked full time while I studied. In the last year I lost my job so I took a student loan. Got two degrees in 5 years, one in engineering you might say. Yes, in Canada.

A fella at work (full time employee) is studying civil engineering at Mohawk College of Applied Arts and Technology.

Oh, I'd forget, my boss is taking full time studies (some political stuff) at Ryerson University. The entire curriculum is online.
Shawn_H  
6 Apr 2009 /  #45
So what's that about?

But given the opportunity to hire someone with an on-line degree versus one from a full time bricks and mortar style university, I think hiring managers would choose the latter.

studying civil engineering at Mohawk College of Applied Arts and Technology

Let us not confuse them with P. Eng's. They can graduate with a Technician or Technologist diploma at best, unless they continue on with an affilliated university for additional studies (ie. Lakehead University).
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
6 Apr 2009 /  #46
No, they didn't. Cash problems in 1990.
Iskra was in production though.

And you can't recognise sarcasm. And you can't remember the dates without going to Wikipedia:

Anti-communists protests:

* Poznań 1956 protests.
* Polish 1970 protests.
* Solidarity movement 1980-1989

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_wars#Anti-communists_protests:

He he he. What an education you must have had...
z_darius 14 | 3,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #47
But given the opportunity to hire someone with an on-line degree versus one from a full time bricks and mortar style university, I think hiring managers would choose the latter.

We're talking about people who are already working, right?
And wasn't your point that only in Poland... ?
That's what I responded to.

Let us not confuse them with P. Eng's.

Let's not. And let's not confuse the P.Eng license with a college diploma since P.Eng is not an academic title.

Anti-communists protests:

These dates are a part of family history.
I fail to see your point.
polishcanuck 7 | 462  
6 Apr 2009 /  #48
Really?
So what's that about?

Online universities are a joke. I would be interested to know how one could do an engineering degree online...

2 degrees in 5 years?? There's no way you could do 2 4yr uni programs in 5 years. The other must be a master's degree....? And to be quite honest, i don't believe you worked full time (part time, yes) while pursuing a university engineering degree.

The engineering program at the college level is not engineering - its engineering technologist/technician - and it would be a diploma not a degree. That program is not difficult to complete. Only one with a degree in eng. (and related work experience - min. of 4yrs i believe) can get a P.Eng.
Shawn_H  
6 Apr 2009 /  #49
We're talking about people who are already working, right?

Still, a degree from U of T (part time) would likely carry more weight than one from some little known on-line school.

And let's not confuse the P.Eng license with a college diploma since P.Eng is not an academic title.

Yes let's not. But one must complete a university level course to be eligible to write the P.Eng. exam, and if I am not mistaken (which is a distinct possibility) a community college graduate is not entitled to call themself "Engineer". Engineering Technicians or Technologists are eligible to become a CET though.
z_darius 14 | 3,969  
7 Apr 2009 /  #50
Some courses have to be taken in class. Part time, some can be taken online and even in fields such as pharmacy. And yes, that's in U of T

2 degrees in 5 years?? There's no way you could do 2 4yr uni programs in 5 years.

OK, perhaps that was a trick on my end. I already had other degrees. Hence no need for electives, context courses and such.

But one must complete a university level course to be eligible to write the P.Eng. exam

Not correct. One has to have a diploma with a curriculum approved by an approppriate governing body. Mohawk College is just fine.

On the general note. The part time and online courses are designed mostly for people who already hold certain positions, or who want to move up the ladder. I work with people who hold responsible positions with just a high school diploma. Some are good at what they do, some are not - the magic of social networking. A lot of people don;t even bother with tru academia. They take weekend sessions in one area or another and that gives them some kind of paper. Believe it or not, they will successfully use that paper in furthering their careers.

Heck, my boss has a two year college diploma. That's all :)
How he got the job? I'm sure daddy helped.

So there. The West is (not necessarily) the best.
How
Guest  
7 Apr 2009 /  #51
I have a "zero" chance to succeed in Poland - I do not have a degree!

You do not have zero chance to succedd in Poland, i do not have a degree and im doing OK. Some months I earn 40,000 PLN others a lot less. This is basically a chance i took a few years ago which has materialised, many millionaires started with nothing except a great idea and some balls to back it up.

In my experience and as a foreign national the service by companies and individuals in Poland is the worst ive ever experienced. This i believe is a direct result of them hiring qualified individuals doing jobs which they hate. Where else would you come by a company such as neostrada, its run by qualified individuals all in one big **** of a mess. Nobody has a bloody clue whats going on.

Poland should employ on general knowledge and expertise in addition to qualified personel, give the right positions to the right people. Lets face it any idiot can gain a degree these days, its substance of character and dedication that counts more at the end of the day.
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
7 Apr 2009 /  #52
Lets face it any idiot can gain a degree these days, its substance of character and dedication that counts more at the end of the day.

True. But a degree also guarantees obedience, and this is highly valued in Poland
Guest  
7 Apr 2009 /  #53
But a degree also guarantees obedience

I'll be sure to pick up a couple of those guaranteed individuals myself then. nah actually i prefer to go for a beer with them and find out whats making them tick.
frd 7 | 1,399  
7 Apr 2009 /  #54
neostrada ain't a company just a service, it's provided by tpsa company which is part of France telecom.

A degree for most employers is a proof of some knowledge. And I have to say I haven't seen a single job offer for an IT without a required degree, or at least a high recommendation for one..
Wroclaw Boy  
7 Apr 2009 /  #55
neostrada ain't a company just a service

whats the difference?

A degree for most employers is a proof of some knowledge.

Some being the defining word
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
7 Apr 2009 /  #56
I thought it was an internet service provider (ISP), a company of sorts. Aha, is it done through TP?
Randal 1 | 577  
7 Apr 2009 /  #57
A degree from an American university is practically worthless these days. Since our Leftist Libs hijacked our Higher Education Industry and opened it up for everyone, including those who have no business going to university, while misuse it as their Liberal indoctrination institution, the level of “education” they provide has declined greatly, all while sucking up our tax dollars. Many kids come out fully “educated” (reprogrammed) in Liberal ways but without possessing any usable knowledge or skills that can be used for employment in the real world. The schools should be sued for failing to provide the service they are paid to provide.

No, I’m not kidding.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
7 Apr 2009 /  #58
Are you saying that a Conservative education, by virtue of being so, equips you with more practical skills, Randal?
Randal 1 | 577  
7 Apr 2009 /  #59
No, that's not what I'm saying. Well, really that would be true but that's not what I'm saying here. Lol... ;)

I’m saying that ideological neutrality should be the standard in education while getting back to focusing on actually educating the kids with useful knowledge and information sans Lib fluff and filler.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,673  
7 Apr 2009 /  #60
Besides, I think the polish magister is not recognised as a master's degree in many countries. It simply serves to point out that the graduate completed "day" studies.

It's starting to be recognised as such now, I think. But it depends on the institution - some seem to still be doing 5 years rather than 3+2, but the big ones seem to have changed over.

I did see something very sad yesterday. I was teaching a class of 15 year olds, and decided that after they did a test, they could play hangman for a bit. I opened the book, found a suitable phrase and started...only for one kid to try and cheat when my back was turned. For his mistake, I made him stand up and talk about cheating, and made the second hour of the class about cheating.

The tragic thing was that out of a class of 8 kids, all of them admitted to cheating. Even the quiet as a mouse, obviously intelligent girl in the class admitted to having cheated on quite a few tests.

The systematic nature of cheating combined with a complete lack of remorse and punishment is terrifying. There seems to be absolutely no realisation on the part of many Poles that everyone having a magister combined with having cheated means that these qualifications just aren't as valuable as elsewhere in the EU - yet many people seem to be incredibly defensive about the actual worth of their qualification.

But I blame this at the door of the education system here.

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