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I have a "zero" chance to succeed in Poland - I do not have a degree!


z_darius 14 | 3,968  
7 Apr 2009 /  #61
The tragic thing was that out of a class of 8 kids, all of them admitted to cheating. Even the quiet as a mouse, obviously intelligent girl in the class admitted to having cheated on quite a few tests.

everyone having a magister combined with having cheated means that these qualifications just aren't as valuable as elsewhere in the EU

So your experience with 8 children tell you that everybody in Poland with a degree cheated? Cheating being a form of dishonesty, you are cheating too - by using a sample of 8 children to paint a picture of thousands.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
7 Apr 2009 /  #62
I agree, Randal. Give them the information on which to base conclusions and opinions. Let them form them. I loved my degree teachers for that reason, they retained their neutrality and presented things objectively for the most part.

It depends on what is "useful". To some people, Liberal standpoints are just that.
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
7 Apr 2009 /  #63
Cheating being a form of dishonesty, you are cheating too

thank you from the man who copies from Wikipedia and represents it as his own work. You Poles are unbelievable. You know very well that cheating is rife in the Polish education system and you're trash talking delphian about it? pfah
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
7 Apr 2009 /  #64
As I see it, the whole problem in Poland is that it's simply far too easy to obtain a Masters level degree in the first place.

How do you know that ?

The fact that there's many people out there with a Masters working for less than a Callan teacher gets says a significant amount about the actual value of the degree to employers

That's a completely idiotic statement. A native English speaker teching the language in Poland can easily make 150-200% of the national average salary. Except some areas of IT or medicine people have to be at least junior managers to make that money and obviosly (except some 3rd world countries with poorly educated workforce) people don't get these positions together with their diploma, It takes years.

Does Poland manufacture, say a car of their own design?

Does Canada or Australia ? That has much more to do with access to capital and other business related issues than with the level of technical education. Anyway many European cars are being designed by Poles.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
7 Apr 2009 /  #65
In the US at any rate what's more important (traditionally) is the idea of 'skills' where skills = demonstrated ability to do X in real world conditions.

In the US they want skills and certificate both plus years of experience.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
7 Apr 2009 /  #66
Is that from a life of thievery, mental hospital or prison/jail? ;0
mafketis 23 | 8,121  
7 Apr 2009 /  #67
But a degree also guarantees obedience, and this is highly valued in Poland

Have you ever actually _been_ in Poland?

I mean of all the adjectives I might ever use to describe Polish people "obedient" would be very close to the last on the list. Scratch a Polish babcia and you find an anarchist that makes your average western libertarian look like a nanny state big government enthusiast.

but if you don't know the language you're gonna miss a lot of these things. In the future you might want to pay attention to the evidence everywhere around you and not your prejudices.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
7 Apr 2009 /  #68
Is that from a life of thievery, mental hospital or prison/jail? ;0

Yes, you need certificates and skills to qualify for all those as well. Experience never hurts.
frd 7 | 1,399  
7 Apr 2009 /  #69
whats the difference?

Well, it is a difference, somebody who states without doubt that neostrada is a company is mislading others, so I said it's not precisely like that and corrected his mistake, where do you see a problem in that?

I thought it was an internet service provider (ISP), a company of sorts. Aha, is it done through TP?

Yup, TP used to be the god almighty of all sorts of communication in Poland due to a badly introduced privatization, All of the cable infrastructure belonged to TP and all the other companies rented those cables from TP. It's a little better now.. And neostrada (overprices and faulty product) is one of many services introduced by TP...

Some being the defining word

ok, plenty, beside a degree doesn't equal a degree, there are schools which are not valued at all and their degrees are worthless..
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
7 Apr 2009 /  #70
Experience never hurts, hmm.....The classic thing upon graduation back home was getting into a job when people told you, 'sorry, you have no experience'. Eh, because I've been studying for the last 5 years you f*cktard!

Frd, gotcha, thanks for the clarification :)
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
7 Apr 2009 /  #71
Eh, because I've been studying for the last 5 years you f*cktard!

Yeah, studying should count. I think post graduate degree work counts as experience.
Shawn_H  
7 Apr 2009 /  #72
Not correct. One has to have a diploma with a curriculum approved by an approppriate governing body. Mohawk College is just fine.

OK, so I checked out PEO and they seem to agree with what you state. They have some kind of course review, and I wonder if all engineering programs are fine as provided, or if additional courses would be required.

Does Canada

Zenn Motor Car!
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
7 Apr 2009 /  #73
Try telling the authorities that, HB. I was making many contributions but they were ripped off by my Profs and used for their own gain. I had a free-ish hand at Uni and could really offer some original thinking. When I left, it was out into the world of refusals and rejection. As I said, transferable experience is crucial.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
8 Apr 2009 /  #74
Zenn

I ment cars...
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
8 Apr 2009 /  #75
In a nutshell, degrees open doors but we are not robots and will pursue different courses along the way. Critical thinking is developed and can help in real-life situations, it just depends on getting into a job which allows that to flourish. Having the necessary paperwork is like getting a drivers license, it's proof at a point in time that you were able to achieve something meaningful but it continues to serve as a door opener (valid) unless you are sb who values Continuous Professional Development (CPD). Careerists see it in a different light but may find themselves thwarted.
polishcanuck 7 | 462  
8 Apr 2009 /  #76
The systematic nature of cheating combined with a complete lack of remorse and punishment is terrifying. There seems to be absolutely no realisation on the part of many Poles that everyone having a magister combined with having cheated means that these qualifications just aren't as valuable as elsewhere in the EU - yet many people seem to be incredibly defensive about the actual worth of their qualification.

But I blame this at the door of the education system here.

Yes, unfortunately cheating is widespread in poland, but not only confined to the educational system might i add. It is a negative product of foreign rule/difficult times (commie times, 1795-1918) during which poles had to "kombinowac" (scheme/cheat) to survive. It will take a LONG time to undue this damage.

But cheating is making its way across the world. In canada/usa, there was a study conducted not too long ago which concluded that, mainly due to advances in technology, an alarmingly high percentage of students (high school, uni, college) cheat on school assignments.

How do you know that ?

Grzegorz, you need to step out of the 'Poland bubble'.

Eh, because I've been studying for the last 5 years you f*cktard!

Seanus, what about summer work experience? Do scottish universities not have (paid) co-op/internship programs? In canada, what students do during the summers is highly regarded by employers.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
8 Apr 2009 /  #77
I had a 6-month placement in my Bachelor's which was a vocational course. I collated information on The Times top 1000 companies on behalf of my uni. It was connected with Proctor & Gamble too. That was in 1998. I did grasscutting work in 1996 which really helped my physical condition, that helps too.

Yeah, we have internships, especially in the domain of IT-related courses.
Shawn_H  
8 Apr 2009 /  #78
I ment cars...

That IS a car!

Well, kind of....
delphiandomine 83 | 18,125  
8 Apr 2009 /  #79
So your experience with 8 children tell you that everybody in Poland with a degree cheated? Cheating being a form of dishonesty, you are cheating too - by using a sample of 8 children to paint a picture of thousands.

I would actually be quite interested to study this in depth - of course, 8 children don't represent the entire country - but when these 8 children are talking openly about cheating and how they do it despite knowing that it's wrong...then wouldn't you be disturbed, too?

The overwhelming opinion amongst Poles I know is that cheating is rife and acceptable - and this is reinforced by teachers not punishing it more severely. I'm told that even if a teacher wishes to severely sanction a cheat, it's often overruled by management because having failures in the school isn't good.

That's a completely idiotic statement. A native English speaker teching the language in Poland can easily make 150-200% of the national average salary. Except some areas of IT or medicine people have to be at least junior managers to make that money and obviosly (except some 3rd world countries with poorly educated workforce) people don't get these positions together with their diploma, It takes years.

I wasn't talking about native speakers. I know someone who doesn't have a masters degree, yet pulls 30zl an hour for teaching Callan. Meanwhile, many Masters graduates are working for 1500-2000 an hour. Something is wrong here, no? It can only point at an overqualified workforce - and should serve as a warning that having a nice piece of paper doesn't mean that you're actually got any skills.

How do you know that ?

Academically, it's quite tough, I don't dispute this. The fact that the system often relies on cheap ways of teaching with some ridiculous methods such as requiring students to buy the professors book means that it's not an easy ride academically - but by 'easy', I mean that you can obtain one despite getting crap grades the entire way. It is complete nonsense that someone who obtained 3's the entire way through their 5 year magister can now be considered to be a Masters graduate. In my opinion, this is where the system is fatally flawed.

Yes, unfortunately cheating is widespread in poland, but not only confined to the educational system might i add. It is a negative product of foreign rule/difficult times (commie times, 1795-1918) during which poles had to "kombinowac" (scheme/cheat) to survive. It will take a LONG time to undue this damage.

This is what people have generally said to me - that it's simply now in the Polish nature to cheat where they can. Certainly, given that the current generation of teachers have accepted cheating as being natural, then it would seem that the only real hope is for a systematic realisation that cheating isn't acceptable.

The sad thing is that the faults in the Polish system (little academic integrity, masters being easy to obtain) could be fixed relatively easily.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
8 Apr 2009 /  #80
I would actually be quite interested to study this in depth - of course, 8 children don't represent the entire country - but when these 8 children are talking openly about cheating and how they do it despite knowing that it's wrong...then wouldn't you be disturbed, too?

This is certainly disturbing. I used to teach both in Poland and in the US and I found the levels of cheating attempts comparable. I can't understand whence that singling out of cheating in Poland. Again, that in itself is akin to cheating.

check out what I mean:

#
In Britain, the Secretary of Education has called for a total revamp of the coursework system before 2008 testing can occur. This is in response to the results of a government study that showed massive cheating at A-level exams.

#
In France, the Baccalaureate exams were found to have a high level of cheating.
#
Across Asia, web-based bulletin boards have been discovered with answers posted for university Foreign Language tests, the scores of which are the basis for admittance of foreign students into most U.S. colleges


read more [setourteachersfree.com/education_news/cheating-epidemic-in-education-part-1/]. And notice the first photo. Out of 9 students shown 6 are caught cheating. These are medical students. No, they are not Polish medical students.

requiring students to buy the professors book

I had to buy such books in American and Canadian universities. My daughter is now in the second year of a Canadian university - same story in a few courses.

The sad thing is that the faults in the Polish system (little academic integrity, masters being easy to obtain) could be fixed relatively easily.

I'm sure Poles will be glad to follow the great example of other countries once they eliminate cheating in their schools.
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
8 Apr 2009 /  #81
Scratch a Polish babcia and you find an anarchist that makes your average western libertarian look like a nanny state big government enthusiast

Ha ha ha. Just because your granny makes moonshine under the radiator and doesn't tell the tax office, that doesn't make her an anarchist. Look what's going on in Moldavia at the moment - the people have just trashed the parliament building. In France - general strike. In Hungary a couple of years ago - protestors stole an old Russian tank from a museum and drove it at the police.

Poland? A bunch of grumpy old men an women get drunk and blame everything in the jews. They then go to bed and the next day head off to their badly paid jobs. Not quite anarchy.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
8 Apr 2009 /  #82
So now you would like Poles to go to Moldavia and protest there or what?

It's remarkable how you keep the same line of bul$hit after you have been proven wrong by a few posters. First, it was that Poles protested "only" once. Who cares that the protests you mentioned lay path to one of the greatest events of the 20th century - the fall of communism. Then, you have a problem with the fact that information about other major protests by Poles can actually be confirmed. Now, just a couple of days later it turns out you have been unable to retain the information? Memory problems?

And to top it off you're from a country with the so called "royalty" and keep bowing to the so called "royal" family because, well, because they were born. Where is you anarchist spirit, Brutish?

Americans also have silly celebrities but their freeloaders at leas are fun, they eitther sing, tell jokes or show boobs in public events? When the the last time you saw one Elizabeth's boobs? All she does is what commies did for about 7 decades - she waves. Again, where are your protests? Show us they way instead of hiding your grumpiness behind a computer keyboard


MrBubbles 10 | 614  
8 Apr 2009 /  #83
So now you would like Poles to go to Moldavia and protest there or what?

Either you are deliberately misinterpreting posts or the wood alcohol in granny's moonshine is twisting your brain. Re read my post giving examples of countries with a pair of cohones giving their leaders a hard time and tell me again how Poland gave Russia a whipping.

Then again, I thought it was John Paul the 2nd who got rid of communism by asking God to put the beatdown on the Russians or am I mistaken.

I don't care what the royal family does. I like the Queen (bless her) but if you go to Wikipedia, you will find out the royal family lost their real power years ago after the civil war. I'll just add Britain to the list of France, Moldavia and Hungary as a country who take action instead of just talking the talk.

Then, you have a problem with the fact that information about other major protests by Poles can actually be confirmed. Now, just a couple of days later it turns out you have been unable to retain the information? Memory problems?

Oh you're so good. You must spend a lot of time watching Columbo instead of working.
delphiandomine 83 | 18,125  
8 Apr 2009 /  #84
This is certainly disturbing. I used to teach both in Poland and in the US and I found the levels of cheating attempts comparable. I can't understand whence that singling out of cheating in Poland. Again, that in itself is akin to cheating.

Oh, I can't possibly comment on the US - I can only compare it to the UK, where cheating is seen as far more of a serious offence than in Poland. Certainly, people in Poland talk much more openly about cheating, like a badge of honour if you will.

Coursework in the UK has the problem that 'pushy parents' will often do it for the children just to ensure a high mark. Which I agree, it's cheating too - but very few people will cheat in tests/exams.

The amount of pressure to succeed is ridiculous in Asia though, I'm not surprised in the slightest that they have sophisticated means and ways of doing so.

I had to buy such books in American and Canadian universities. My daughter is now in the second year of a Canadian university - same story in a few courses

It goes on there, too? It's a dreadful practice in my opinion - effectively, you're just buying the grade. I can understand if your lecturer is a world expert and his book is the definitive source - but how often is that really the case?
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
8 Apr 2009 /  #85
Either you are deliberately misinterpreting posts or the wood alcohol in granny's moonshine is twisting your brain.

You are flattering yourself. There is nothing to misinterpret in your posts. Uninformed and vile spitting does not deserve interpretations. It does deserve to be pointed out as an example of a feeble mind unable to see past her own fly infested nose.

I can only compare it to the UK, where cheating is seen as far more of a serious offence than in Poland.

When I was in schools in Poland cheating was certainly frowned upon. A teacher or two may have been more lax than others, but most were pretty diligent in doing what they could to alleviate the issue that crosses national borders. The remedies ranged from asking others to help supervise students during written exams to designing exams in ways such that students could not use their neighbors' work - all, or most questions differed.

Most of the time exam questions were problems rather than plain enumeration of facts. It is really hard to use a cheat sheet to write about topics spanning centuries, or volumes and requiring critical thinking. It is rare to both use facts from a cheat sheet and come up with a coherent thesis, all in a span of a couple of hours during and under the pressure of an exam.

Did some, or even many, "successfully", cheated? Heck, yes. But to paint an entire nation as a nation of cheaters, and to falsely contrast them with other nations, is going a bit too far.

The amount of pressure to succeed is ridiculous in Asia though, I'm not surprised in the slightest that they have sophisticated means and ways of doing so.

The amount of pressure is only a reflection of the pressure in real life. In Western countries so many kids have been given their toys on a silver platter that they do not understand the word pressure in this context and I'm not sure this is such a good thing. Life in general is not a walk in the park. Unless you're born to a wealthy family there ain't no flower sniffing ahead of you - you have to fight, often just to stay afloat.

In this kind of fight some people will try to equalize the chances given to them with the chances given to others. After all, a person born to a wealthy family is, in many cases (not all) somewhat of a cheater by default. Having achieved nothing such person has already a decent position in life just by being born. Now, how honest is that. See: G.W. Bush's two degrees from both Harvard and Yale. Can you believe that?

I am not trying to justify cheating, just touching on a wider angle of view.

It goes on there, too? It's a dreadful practice in my opinion - effectively, you're just buying the grade. I can understand if your lecturer is a world expert and his book is the definitive source - but how often is that really the case?

I can't speak for all such "books". Some of the ones I used were really useful guides, not the only sources of information. Others were indeed cash grab by some profs. Likewise, some professors actually are world experts in their respective disciplines, others far from it.

In this respect I blame the educational system itself in the West which gives professors pretty much unrestricted freedom in designing their courses and thus allow the use of whatever material they see fit - such as one allowing them extra cash for their next vacation trip.

I don't really subscribe to the idea of students having full freedom to select courses within a major as they please. In short, the problems I see with is the relative immaturity of students which won't allow most of them to select courses that would give them a well rounded type of expertise in a given field.

When I studied English Lit in Poland one of the prof's assistants was a young British fella, Justin. Justin was an undergrad with Oxford diploma in English Lit. We discussed "stuff" and soon it turned out that Justin did not know enough about Milton to discuss a topic spanning centuries of English Lit. See, he did not take Milton at school. We were shocked. How can you not take Milton and call yourself an assistant in an English Department of a University? We're talking a giant figure of English cultural history here.

This is just one example, but many others I came across would be equally, or even more embarrassing to some of the Western educated persons.

Some of your remarks, and mine, certainly have roots in our respective backgrounds. It would be ridiculous for anybody to claim objectivity, so I won't, but I will point out my extensive educational experience both in Poland and abroad. In my experience Polish universities have little reason to shame. Certainly not a whole lot more than even the leading Western academia.

My $0.02 CDN (adjusted for inflation)
southern 75 | 7,096  
8 Apr 2009 /  #86
In Western countries so many kids have been given their toys on a silver platter that they do not understand the word pressure in this context

In Greece these kids you mentioned get really feked by the system of the highly competitive exams to enter university where all kids participate.You see most children of academics,professors and doctors being ridiculed in the exams since the competition is too high.

There is no way to cheat since the counter-measures are very strict.(they are simple:black tape over the name of the examinee,grading by two independant teachers in other city from where the exam took place,deciding the subjects of the exam just some minutes before the exam by lottery where 5 professors give subjects after being isolated in an office without phone for one day,police presence in exam centers,competitve students sitting close so they have countermotivation to help,two teachers inspecting each classroom who get reawarded by catching sb who cheats and very hard punishment for those who caught cheating including their expell of the exam.They get grade sero in all subjects).

And guess what?Society blames these exams,they say they destroy the sensitive nature of children etc and many of those who fail travel to study where? in UK,Italy and eastern european countries.In UK there are 50000 greek students,the largest number of foreign students among all foreign groups,in Italy about 30000 and in eastern Europe another 35000.

Of course in eastern Europe they pay for the degree,in Italy they exploit the easy access to university and in UK they always finish on time.

Many of them achieve later entrance to greek universities by bribing professors in exams conducted by professors,not the national exams.
The graduates coming from abroad develop ridiculous theories.
Anyway the whole situation is messed up.I mean whether you want to limit the number of degrees or not,the higher classes and middle class will always find ways to penetrate the system and reward their kids by simply lowering the admission standards either inside the country or abroad.

So the kids who do not have rich parent but just academic abilities are really condemned,they have pissed into the well,as we say in Greece.(this was one reason for the black future of young generation which lead to the violent riots in Athens in December,which were very much admired and felt jealous for by the french and some more young generations).
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
8 Apr 2009 /  #87
Uninformed and vile spitting does not deserve interpretations. It does deserve to be pointed out as an example of a feeble mind unable to see past her own fly infested nose.

Well, this is about the level of your posts so I don't bother discussing things with you. Firstly you couldn't remember those three important dates, you copy them off Wikipedia without acknowledging it, you lie to me and then get abusive when I call you out on them. Damn you're even so stupid that you don't even change the formatting when you cut and paste them into a thread.

Well done Darius, you're a great advert for the Polish education system because this is pretty much exactly what happens in secondary schools here.

Anyway I don't know why I'm bothering to post this since one of your pet moderators will probably delete it.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
8 Apr 2009 /  #88
Well, this is about the level of your posts so I don't bother discussing things with you. Firstly you couldn't remember those three important dates, you copy them off Wikipedia without acknowledging it

My family suffered in 1956.
I lived in Poland in 1970 and I remember what was going on.
I lived in Poland during solidarity movement and I participated in what was going on.

I don't need third hand accounts of at least two of those events.

Wikipedia is one of many, many sources mentioning them. You're pissed off that you were proven wrong and that a proof of that exists, so you took to dissecting the proof and how I may have, or not, known what you either didn't or chose to omit in your vile post.

Bottom line - contrary to your post the Solidarity Movement was NOT the only major protest in post WW2 Poland, and there were far more than just those 3 - whether you found similarities in formatting or not. Also contrary to your views, Poles are not exactly a nation of educated drones easy to govern.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769  
8 Apr 2009 /  #89
is the discussion about Poland now or Poland then and are the two concepts divisable?
I love how on this forum everything turns into a slagging match. Can't we just agree that the system here has flaws but it's still better than other places in some respects. Or

See, he did not take Milton at school. We were shocked. How can you not take Milton and call yourself an assistant in an English Department of a University? We're talking a giant figure of English cultural history here.

Maybe he had been concerned with the runts of English cultural history or maybe he just didn't want to talk about it with you, ever think of that?

yeah i'm just posting crap here aren't i?
Well back to the quarreling then...
frd 7 | 1,399  
8 Apr 2009 /  #90
MrBubbles

obvious troll is obvious

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