Apartment purchase in Poland

fiodor,

You pay the notary in the same way that you pay a solicitor. He is responsible for any search that has to be made and therefore responsible if things should go wrong.

Is a solicitor free ? No

Wait, so does it mean in Poland the notary does the real estate agent's job? How come he's called notary then? So when I want to buy an apartment in Poland I first need to go to the notary and he will give me a list of available properties and will drive me around the city to show each apartment? So you don't have real estate agents in Poland (like in the US?)

fiodor,

Just had a chat. He's not responsible for a search. Sorry.

The notary is responsible for the document which shows that both parties agree on specific aspects of the sale.

Fiodor,

'search' doesn't mean search for property. It means search 'the history of the property'

Sorry, If I misunderstand you.

Well, that's exactly what I thought. So a notary is just another middle-man who takes a chunk of the money for a signature (plus some paper work).

In the US you don't even have to have an agent - you can just pay $300 for being listed in MLS (the national database of properties in the US) and then just wait for calls from real estate agents. When you sell, you only pay about 2-2.5% of the total amount to the SELLER's agent (if you had your own agent you'd have to pay him/her about 2% too). Plus, you hire an attorney to seal the deal at closing (the attorney's cost is about $350).

So in Poland you waste 2% or more just for a notary -- it is a big amount of money... Plus a commission to your real estate agent + a commission to the seller's estate agent.

the apartament i am purchasing is from my mom friend . notary is checking all the papers but i just learn that i have to have a permit from ministry of interir and administraton .what is this all about ? nobody ever told me that before is this for real????????????

Bernadetem, are you not living in the EE? Where are you from, please read this document, see if any of it applies to you.....

mswia.gov.pl/index_eng.php?dzial=20&id=60&search=159145

Can I ask Bernadetem if you would post a template "report" as in my first post on this thread, to inform us all of how you 've gone about it and your experience to date?

I would really appreciate that and I am sure the rest of the guys posting on this thread would too!

I know it will take a little time to do, but everyone would benefit, let me know if you can help us all!


Lef, can you give us some examples of this....ie whats quoted off an estate agents web site and what you'd buy in the same town for the same money via a private sale?

Would appreciate that!

Fiodor,

Its the law to use a notary( its the same in France...perhaps other European countries too?), he has to ensure all taxes, stamp duty and other fees, plus the property is correctly recorded and registered on behalf of the state - so in effect he's a quasi-legal figure, but MUST be involved.

You can use him with an estate agent or also with a private seller - naturally you don't pay a percentage to the private seller, but you do to an estate agent!

PS I stand to be corrected on any of the above points by local Polish posters!!!!.....:)

Old Punk....where have you been !!!!?????......:)

Fill us wannabe Polish property magnates as to your experiences or indeed your aspiration regarding buying something in Poland!

So does anybody know how much exactly this Polish notary thing costs? I've heard that's a lot (and being a notary in Poland is like winning a lottery), but don't know the exact numbers when you buy an apartment...

According to this article....its 2-2.5% of the value...perhaps again local Polish people can verify?

channel4.com/4homes/buyingabroad/countryguides/cg_poland-2.html

Not sure if its my particularly crappy computer guys, but it freezes when searching on the Channel 4 site....you have been warned!!

PS Bloody Microsoft!

Buying a new flat.

When you buy a 'new build' flat in Poland it doesn't come with fixtures and fittings.

The type of flooring you choose, doors, bathroom fittings + tiles, kitchen are additional items. You buy a new build and then find someone or a company to finish the work.

Also, it's not very often that flats and houses are completed on time. Add to this the extra work needed and you'll find yourself moving in at least two or three months later than you thought.

Houses.

There are many houses on the market that are half built: i.e. The owner has run out of money and wishes to sell.
If the house was built by someone in his free time. Make sure that you check the original plans and also check to see if building regulations have been followed.

This one is simple.

Buy a small expensive flat in the city or a big house [which needs some repair] in the country. Same price.

Spritus, when checking these auction sites, can you tell me what percentage of homes are sold on these sites....on other sites homes are advertised for more than 2 years...and still not sold..

I am not so sure if you are right about notary.

I think that notary charge and some extra tax is about 0.1% .

2% is eqivalent of stamp duty - it is tax that notary charges when cotract is signed and later send to Inland revenue.

But...if you buy new property from developer you don't pay this 2% at all.

2%-2.5% is estate agent charge and his does all checking for customer.

I want to buy buy new flat so it will save me about 4-5% costs.

According to

channel4.com/4homes/buyingabroad/countryguides/cg_poland-2.html - this article its 2-2.5% of the value...perhaps again local Polish people can verify?

"On a new-build property 7% VAT is levied. It is customary for the buyer to pay the notary’s fees (which include all taxes to be paid) of approximately 2-2.5% of the purchase price. "

It is not very clear in this article but it is stamp duty for second hand flats ( and houses???? I am not sure about houses)

But in England people also pay 2%- not much difference.

Ok, guys so their are some queries regarding the duties/percentages involved in both new property transactions and 2nd hand homes, can someone ask a notary what their actual fees are?

Or maybe there is an official sliding scale of charges/duties that all notaries charge, perhaps copy it onto the board?

Appeals to Polish posters!

Sorry Lef but there's no way of me knowing what the "sales figures" are. I'm not associated with any of these auction sites.

Which other sites were you referring to ?

Frank........... you should have had another e-mail.

Everyone..........You will get an answer to your notary fee question tomorrow. I'll make the call in the morning.

Ok, guys so their are some queries regarding the duties/percentages involved in both new property transactions and 2nd hand homes, can someone ask a notary what their actual fees are?

Or maybe there is an official sliding scale of charges/duties that all notaries charge, perhaps copy it onto the board?

Appeals to Polish posters!

I found but it is in polish- second line says podatek od czynnosci cywilno-prawnych - it is 2% -it is stamp duty

No all charges there always apply.

Thanks Wroclaw/Iwona....for your help...again, can you get us sample costs for each etc....looking forward to it...no e-mail yet Wroclaw........

We have looked into prices in Warsaw and Krakow. I am broker in the USA. Interested in a investment in Poland.

if you buy property for 300 000 PLN ( about 50 000 GBP)

Cena transakcyjna: PLN 300000
Podatek od czynności cywilnoprawnych: PLN-stamp duty 2% 6000.00
Taksa notarialna (opłata notarialna): PLN notary charge 2210.00
VAT od taksy notarialnej (opłaty notarialnej): PLN vat of not charg 486.20
Opłata sądowa: PLN -court charge 200.00
Wniosek do wydziału Ksiąg Wieczystych- kind of court charge 200.00
oraz wypisy aktu notarialnego - około: PLN
Prowizja agencji nieruchomości: 2.5 % % PLN real estate 7500.00
Suma opłat dodatkowych: PLN
RAZEM (cena + opłaty): PLN together 16596.20

no stamp duty if new property. real etate is max here 2.5% could be less.
I think taht lotsl polish peopel stll buy without real easte service

sorry for my bad spelling I was in rush.

This is after a phone call.

The costs mentioned were from 3% down to 1%.

The higher the price of the property the lower the percentage.

There are hidden costs which the notary [we phoned] would only discuss in person.

It makes no difference if it is a new build or not.

Wroclaw,

I think that when you buy new flat built by developer you don't have to pay 2%- podatek od czynnosci prawnych.

Sorry, it is in polish but I am sure that buyer doesn't pay 2% when he buys new property from developer.

"Nabywając mieszkanie na rynku pierwotnym (od developera) nie płacimy podatku od czynności cywilnoprawnych, co wynika z art. 2 pkt. 4 ustawy o podatku od czynności cywilnoprawnych na mocy którego nie podlegają podatkowi: czynności cywilnoprawne, jeżeli przynajmniej jedna ze stron z tytułu dokonania tej czynności na podstawie odrębnych przepisów jest opodatkowana podatkiem od towarów i usług lub jest zwolniona od tego podatku."

The fee mentioned by the notary was for his fee only. It didn't take into account other costs which might or might not occur. This is part of the problem. the notary office would only discuss 'extras' after an appointment at his office.

So can we say that the stamp on the document, by a notary, costs from 3% down to 1%

Did you check this website?

money.pl/banki/kalkulatory/koszty

I think that notary fee is quite restricted and depends on value of property.

Are you sure that they can differ from 1-3 % ?

i thought that they have special price list for service and it is the same in every notary office.

Iwona,

I can only tell you what was said on the phone. I don't dispute your information.

We really need someone in the business to post some answers.

For those who can make sense, this was calculated for me today by my lawyer on the purchase of a 250Kzl property:

Oblicz dla: mieszkanie hipoteczne, dom, dzialka

Zakupione ne: rynek w torny

Wartosc: 250000 zl

Taska notarialne (maksymalnie) 1960

Podatek VAT od tasky notaralnej 431, 20

Podatek od czynnosci cywilnoprawych 5000

Wniosek o wpis do ksiegi wieczystej 200

Posrednik 0% 0,00

Podatek VAT od uslugi posrenictwa 0,00

Oplaty dodatkowe 0 0,00

RAZEM OPLATY: 7591, 20 zl

All above figures are PLN

Guys......many thanks for all the research since (I was on a break for a few days!)....we are nailing down the actual "breakdown" costs of buying in Poland, more than useful...A*...so far!

Now if we could, get some one to go through their experience... as per the first post on the thread, that would be even better, then if we got a variety of experiences listed, covering new builds/off plan buying, house purchases and apartment purchases ( am leaving out land/business purchases for the moment as these seem even more complex!), so we would have a full "portfolio" of buying experiences, what do you all think?

Thanks again, Frank

Just stole this from the property tax situation 1st jan 2007 thread (attributed to Arrrgh!).....wholly true or anyone comment.......!

"All Polish property purchased after Jan 1, 2007 will be subject to a sort of Capital Gains Tax. I think the rate is 19%. This means, after subtracting all your costs - such as putting a new roof on the property, or tiles in the bathroom (providing these are all properly VAT receipted) - you will have to pay 19% on your profit when selling the property. "

This tax increase is correct Frank but it works out less/better in my understanding - as far as I can work out, you pay 10% on sale price at present which works out more/worse than 19% on you net profit... at least this is what has been explained to me...

Overview
Nothing happens quickly here and ask 10 people the same question and you get 10 different answers... I have a Polish partner who deals with most of the tricky stuff but I am also using English speaking lawyers etc where possible.

The sort of people I am dealing with include estate agents, private sellers, lawyers, notaries, people who know people and have contacts etc etc. Would I do it again... of course, but it's all a learning experience...

Where you bought
My first purchase was an off plan apartment in Ruzcjai Krakow oposite the university, Motorola office and the new library. It was a shared deal where together we bought 4 apartments in a block and have divided them to make 6 of varying size. We agreed the SQM price a year ago... the building has yet to start... some complications with number of parking spaces required under new legislation... my SQM rate has doubled as far as I understand. This has all been done via Churchill Properties based in the UK

My other purchases - which have still to be finalised - are in and around the Troijmiasto. I am in the process of buying an attic in Wreszcz for conversion which is done through people who have contacts; a house in Osowa which is a private deal (and is being bought in my partner's name to avoid all the permit complications etc) and hope to buy a flat in Sopot over the next few days.

Iam buying in the Troijmiasto as it is a city which I know and have friends in etc... I also think the area is prime for return on investment... and its loads of fun here :)

Price you paid - for the property, agents, solicitors, other parties

Krakow flat 49sqm @ 3500 zl

Wrzeszcz attic 300sqm @ 670 zl

Osowo house 300sqm @ 850 zl

Sopot flat 100sqm @ 4500 zl

I havent incured all costs at this stage and it is very difficult to get even a rough estimate of what final costs will be... the attic for example includes *finders fee*...

Who did you buy from
I am in the process of buying via property developer, estate agent, private vendor and a residential community... there are different advantages/disadvantages for all...

Time scale
Did anyone ever work out how long the piece of string was... :)

What to look out for
To get the deals you really need, IMHO, to know the market and be on the ground... some of the *hotter* properties are moving very quickly and insider information is needed to really get the best deals...

It obviously helps if you have someone to work with who knows the ropes and can speak Polish - phoning a private seller is a no-goer if you dont speak the lingo. Estate agents make you sign a contract before you view saying that you would bypass them and go straignt to the vendor to do your deal. Surveys are not the norm as far as I can tell and I have had ifficulty getting this done at short notice...

as things progress I will keep you updated...

Jasiu...........quality stuff....thanks for your time, input and clarity..........bar the string bit....lol

Just one or two queries....bear with me...and am sure a few more guys!

This per sq metre, is for all on the list?....."Krakow flat 49sqm @ 3500 zl" = 171500zl?..the others just multiple up?

Just trying to get a handle on additional costs etc.......whether to budget for 3-5% or more like 6-9%?....your thoughts?

In your opinion, the net/adverts via the net and estate agents, not anywhere as good value wise etc compared to word on the ground/local knowledge?

yeah... the prices are all multiples of sq metres... what I am purchasing at, not the final conversion costs etc, except the attic which I hope will include most of the costs... this is where the profits are if you can get hold of them...

i would calculate additional costs etc at probably 6-10% but it is so hard to tell what the final figure will be... I am slowly getting a grip on costs...

I think you will find the bargains on the ground - a number of private vendors also advertise via agents etc... who then add on their fee... but the bargains seem to be going really quickly... i am guessing there is a lot of insider knowledge/back handers going on that i am not party to... yet...

Ok, thanx for that, as you said you'd keep us up-to-date........great!

gazumped