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Poland threatens to reject EU treaty


Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Oct 2007 /  #31
LOL ! How do you think relations with Russia of this "strong EU" will look like ? At the beginning will probably pay from our taxes for the northern pipeline.

Yes it is problem, that germans are trying to do business with Russia on cost of Poland. And in this case I m 100 % agains this pipe line.

and maybe little surprise.

Kaczysnki wants EU army !! he isnt so anti Eropean as some can think.

Last time Spain have put the same proposal on the tabe.

Sarkozy wants to use France atomic wepons as EU wepons so EU army would have nice argument in their policy

We go in good direction
randompal 7 | 306  
6 Oct 2007 /  #32
in close future there will be more and more politicans who will share my opinion about our future

that sounds nice, but don't forget that Poland is famous for precisely that: politicians who specialize in doing exactly the opposit of what you want/need

Sarkozy wants to use France atomic wepons as EU wepons not only France.

why is that a good thing? they should get rid of the damn things if anything
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Oct 2007 /  #33
that sounds nice, but don't forget that Poland is famous for precisely that: politicians who specialize in doing exactly the opposit of what you want/need

ehhhh it is fact too :/ but we will see

why is that a good thing? they should get rid of the damn things if anything

I think EU should have some bombs, just to have it not use it. But this bomb it is only Sarko proposal... so we will see.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
6 Oct 2007 /  #34
kool well maybe the UK can ask the Polish how to muck up negotiations and then do it themselves so we are thrown out of the EU, i think that would be an all round good thing for the UK :)
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Oct 2007 /  #35
kool well maybe the UK can ask the Polish how to muck up negotiations and then do it themselves so we are thrown out of the EU

take them

weewrggfhgh
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
6 Oct 2007 /  #36
And in this case I m 100 % agains

And how much you think your "I'm 100% against" will be worth in "strong EU" ? Gerries have over twice bigger population and several times bigger economy. Some "Euro government" will obviosly care more about interests of Gerries or Frenchies than about ours, just like our governments care more about Warsaw than about some town in Mazury.

where did you heard it?

I saw It in TVN. Only once. Later It was hidden under a carpet because our "elites" were affraid that "pospólstwo" could change opinion about their beloved EU.
El Gamal 1 | 27  
6 Oct 2007 /  #37
and say that if the Germans hadn’t killed so many Poles, then they would have more votes

It's TRUE. I can not imagine anything more rude than murder great part of society of certain country and then to propose to make voting power proportional to population.

I would like to inform you, that UK REJECTED many points of Reform Treaty (collective foreign policy, Charter of Fundamental Rights, social security and tax laws), which are main documents Germans want to determine EU with, in line with their buisiness. Common law will forbid Poland of establishing such a law which is favourable for developing country (I mean low taxes, because common law includes an obligation to approve great social care to tye citizens, which we can't afford). Moreover, Hans Gert Poettering said openly, thet for the Germans Charter of Fundamental Rights is a way to rebuild their power in western Poland and, saying simply, kick Poles out of it. Why should we support that??
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
7 Oct 2007 /  #38
We should take care about our intersts, we will see in the future what will happen we have na old system (voting) till 2015 so to than Turkey and Ukraine will be knocking to EU doors. and we will see if France with 60 mln population or UK will agree to have the same power in EU as Ukraine/Turkey (author of article in "die welt" nototiced this fact as well)

I saw It in TVN. Only once. Later It was hidden under a carpet because our "elites" were affraid that "pospólstwo" could change opinion about their beloved EU.

Moreover, Hans Gert Poettering said openly, thet for the Germans Charter of Fundamental Rights is a way to rebuild their power in western Poland and, saying simply, kick Poles out of it. Why should we support that??

You should norice that last time we have changed law (all political fractions supported this project) it was made calmly but it closes the case of german ex-nazists coming form western part of Poland, asking for some properties in our country. we have changed our "prawo uwłaszczeniowe" (AFFRANCHISE law). Now they can kiss our a s s.

And their organistaion noticed this fact and are really flustrated, what can be interesting they accused their own gov (german) and want some money from them... so they realized that it is not possible to F*** Poland so they are going to try to F*** their own gov. They are so furious, that Merkel has to go on sumit of this nazi F***ERS and we will see what she will tell them ...

What is funy, to this moment Germans were trying to pretend that this case is old strory and Poles are just dramatising, and now after closing the case by changing our law, they look so flustrated :) Now when problem of this properties looks solved we can start to cooperate :)

I call them nazist because on this teritories hitler was supported by about 80% of germans society, so they decided to start this war, and lost ...

... and this case isnt old case, just because Merkel (german chancelor) has to go to this old nazi bastards on summit and explain why they are not going to change the east border... maybe because they are really strong lobby with enormous money (all daimonts, gold, art stolen form Poles, Jews ... )

To Grzegorz and others It realy seams that Merkel cooperate in this case with our president, so we should be optimistic.
johan123 1 | 228  
7 Oct 2007 /  #39
Global Leader Brings Exceptional Political Expertise
Washington, D.C. (October 4, 2007) – Aleksander Kwaśniewski, former president of Poland, joined APCO Worldwide's International Advisory Council (IAC), Margery Kraus, president and chief executive officer, announced today. Kwaśniewski guided Poland's transformation during the critical years following the fall of communism.

"President Kwaśniewski is the quintessential strategist statesman," Kraus said. "He brings deep understanding of contemporary politics and the challenges that face our global society. This unique perspective and expertise will add yet another level of insight to APCO's IAC and clients."

How can one of the leaders of a political party justify joining a global consultancy company!
Crow 150 | 9,566  
7 Oct 2007 /  #40
I nicely said `There can be alternative to EU`. You see key words are `can be` because currently we don't have other option.

But, if I can speak openly, I believe (people hire already know me) that some kind of Slavic Union can be alternative to EU in the future, maybe close, maybe far future but I believe that it is inevitable.

People of former Yugoslavia already are aware that destruction of Yugoslavia was mistake (economic reasons, fear because of advancing foreign culture- fear from assimilation). We were pushed in bloody Civil War because of courtiers which lead EU policy even today (I point directly on Germany, on the first place).

In the same time, I don't want to say that Yugoslavia was perfect state and that only foreigners can be blamed but YU was creation of Slavic spirit. It was something ours, light in darkness after thousand years of slavery and misery of our kind. That was key reason why some powers decided to destroy her, to create negative example and destroying Yugoslavia in the same time destruct hope that Slavs aren't capable to offer alternative to EU and USA.

In this moment we don't have alternative. Two biggest Slavic powers - Russia and Poland are absolutely disoriented with strong mutual misunderstandings. Russia still in transition (we can only hope in direction of democratic state), Poland practically under occupation (it is questionable who is in worse situation- Poles or Serbs, honestly). Both, Poland and Russia strongly depend on EU (read Germany). Slavs are divided over religious lines, just escaped from communism, young democracies, economy in process of stabilization (as if), etc.

Yes, in this moment we don't have alternative, unfortunately. But in agony and in fear for future of our children, we- Slavs would find the scent and we would seek to find ultimate shelter in formation of some kind of Slavic Union (alliance, confederation or federation).

Then, if God is upon us, nobody won't rule us! Then we would be able to speak about independent foreign policy, preservation of our culture/civilization/languages, real progress in economy, true exploration of our great heritage, global economy and market, preparations for cosmic age, etc.

I wish luck to all of us, my Polish brothers and sisters.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
7 Oct 2007 /  #41
I wish luck to all of us, my Polish brothers and sisters.

Ok my Serb friend, maybe I dont agree with you lets say in some points ;)

but go watch game Serbia-Poland (even our hools dont like each other) and you will notice big flag on Polsh sector, there will be writen on it in serb language, sth about our support FOR SERBS IN KOSOVO.
Nigel 1 | 71  
7 Oct 2007 /  #42

[
quote=randompal] that sounds nice, but don't forget that Poland is famous for precisely that: politicians who specialize in doing exactly the opposit of what you
want/need [/quote]

why is that a good thing? they should get rid of the damn things if anything

Randompal,I like your style,its interesting reading your comments !

Hi crow. I used to work with many Serbs and Macedonians and they were superb to the last man.Harder men are very rare and they can work as hard as anyone. From what I know about the' YUGO's' they are sure to suceed and they will more than deserve their sucess.As for your slav pact idea...

I've said for years that PL would have been better to have an EFTA type agreement with LT,SK,CZ e.t.c and then join the E.U later , when they were in a better position. They dont seem to like their neighbours though and certainly dont want be outperformed by them one day.Great idea but the world's not ready for that yet
plk123 8 | 4,149  
7 Oct 2007 /  #43
Poland practically under occupation

come again?
Crow 150 | 9,566  
7 Oct 2007 /  #44
but go watch game Serbia-Poland (even our hools dont like each other) and you will notice big flag on Polsh sector, there will be writen on it in serb language, sth about our support FOR SERBS IN KOSOVO.

Yes, I like to watch sport matches between Poland and Serbia, Russia - Serbia, etc; especially when girls/woman play. Parades of Slavic beauty and skills. It would be too pity if we Slavs aren't capable to evolve and that way preserve our civilization. It would be too pity

Mark my words, my unknown friend, time will show that Racowie didn't fail. Mark my words. If there were/are Slavs which shown resistance and respective level of immunity on religious divisions among Slavs those are bearers of Serbian name and so, those from Balkan, too.

... when you mentioned, I know for support from Polish sector. Slavs only need to face with truth in case with events in former Yugoslavia (now on Kosovo), about conquest and double standards of so called west ... and, when the moment come, expect to see unbelievable expressions of Slavic solidarity, when Slavs show what they think about mutilation of Serbs, all Yugoslavs (we all are victims of bloody schemes).

Polish soldiers on Kosovo and Metohija already knows that bests on Kosovo aren't Serbs but Albanians (OK, let's not generalize). Thousand blesses for those guys and for Ukrainian, Slovakian soldiers, too. Without them, Kosovo would already be absolutely ethnical cleansed from Serbs.

Kosovo is test for all Slavs, test for new `drang nach osten`. Then, will be Chechenia (Russia in general), German demends from Poland and Czeska, Austrian and Italian aspirations on Slovenia, Dalmatia and Slavonia, Hungarian pretensions on North of Serbia and South of Slovakia, etc.

PS Sorry (it's my English), what you think with hools? You mean hooligans in short?

Quoting: Crow
Poland practically under occupation

come again?

All right, why don`t you analize geopolitical Polish situation for us. Serbs at least know, with what they deal with. Poles don`t have informations. Not at all (as if) and, there is real danger that Germany (non-Slavs) just consume Poland when experiment EU collapsed. How you don`t see that we live in time of formation of global civilizations, new borders (real borders) just need to be drown. Hantington don`t see Poland as Slavic state but Poland as part of other civilization

BDW, Russian position is absolute abomination to me and deals between Russian and German states behind back of Poland. We Serbs expected more from Russia, not to mention direct support (not only BLA BLA) in case with Kosovo. Who rules Russia, question is now? Slavs or non-Slavs
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
7 Oct 2007 /  #45
PS Sorry (it’s my English), what you think with hools? You mean hooligans in short?

hools => hooligans => football fanatics
osiol 55 | 3,922  
7 Oct 2007 /  #46
football fanatics

Not football fanatics.
Violent thugs.
Crow 150 | 9,566  
7 Oct 2007 /  #47
Quoting: Crow
PS Sorry (it’s my English), what you think with hools? You mean hooligans in short?

hools => hooligans => football fanatics

yes, i thought that but wasn`t 100% sure

Well, don`t worry for them. Those are hooligans and from them you can expect everything but, even they are selective in their targets i`m sure

... imagine German hooligans between Polish and Serbian hooligans during game, I mean that would be crazy sandwich of oblivion. He, he...
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
7 Oct 2007 /  #48
(it is a litle bit of topic)

Polish soldiers on Kosovo and Metohija already knows that bests on Kosovo aren’t Serbs but Albanians (OK, let’s not generalize). Thousand blesses for those guys and for Ukrainian, Slovakian soldiers, too. Without them, Kosovo would already be absolutely ethnical cleansed from Serbs.

I have to agree that at the begining of NATO intervention, there was enormous propaganda, about serb monsters killing albanians... And the truth was much different, we all know that all world Powers have their pupils there, and world wanted to beat Russian ally ... In my opinion your situation isnt good, you are surounded by EU countries and you are Russian friend ... your neighbours hate you ... You have to find some friends in EU to present your point of view.

and I dont think this country is Poland it is just general idea.
Crow 150 | 9,566  
7 Oct 2007 /  #49
Hi crow. I used to work with many Serbs and Macedonians and they were superb to the last man.Harder men are very rare and they can work as hard as anyone. From what I know about the' YUGO's' they are sure to suceed and they will more than deserve their sucess.

Thanks for kind words

As for your slav pact idea...

I've said for years that PL would have been better to have an EFTA type agreement with LT,SK,CZ e.t.c and then join the E.U later , when they were in a better position. They dont seem to like their neighbours though and certainly dont want be outperformed by them one day.

Agree

Poland should balance and try to be neutral, something like Switzerland of Baltik. Czeska would also especialy profit from such approach, even more then they profit now. In Sovenia exist strong Yugonostalgia, even more then in Serbia in this very moment (I know, have contacts with friends and there are articles on the Net about it).

I think that Serbia tend to have such a relations with NATO (to avoid it on nice way) and if possible to have close relations with EU but not member necessarily. They already started to repair all what they destroyed in bombardment in 1999 (example, they couldn’t use Danube if they don’t repair the bridges that were destroyed and while they didn’t remove missiles that fallen in Danube from airplanes), they helping in rebuilding factories, economy in general, etc. But, they can’t correct all that they did in their conquest. They can’t give us back children and pregnant woman that they killed in hospitals, journalists in radio and tv stations, etc. Not to mention that Serbian Krajina- legitimitate Serbian land (traditionally) was destroyed and people ethnically cleansed. They used even mujaheedines and Al Qaeda against us.

I personally don’t trust to EU. I really don’t have any reason to trust. They had opportunity to help (they offered their diplomatic services and we accepted) but, they choused to push Yugoslavia in bloody Civil War (when Germany cut political dialogue and recognized secession of Croatia and Bosnia; violence on Serbs started- they lost jobs in Croatia, started killings of Serb civilians at night, federal army was attacked in Croatia, Serbs of Krajina said- if Croatia go from Yugoslavia we choosing to stay (it was OK according to Yugoslav and Croatian constitution), Serbs also were in fear because of ustashe massacres during Croatian state in WWII when 700.000 Serbs was murdered, Croatia changed constitution illegally, Croat paramilitary formations attacked Krajina, Bosnian Muslims massacred Serbian wedding ceremony in Sarajevo and attacked federal army and whole region blow up and was colored in red). [That’s how started, after that nobody is innocent.] and, people of Europe get information that Serbs are monsters

I will say again, it was necessary that Yugoslavia become negative example for possible Slavic Union (it was- Kill the dream!) and of course, Serbia was punished for repelling German penetration in region in Balkan Wars, WWI, WWII, for resisting to Turko-German division of region between them and for playing on Slavic card (not Russian but, Slavic in general!).

This is Serbian attitude…

We and our lands are part of Slavic civilization and we can’t be member of some formation which showing hostility on Slavs but, we would like to cooperate and we understand that all who are interested in Balkan as strategic region, need to secure their interests.

Great idea but the world's not ready for that yet

I’m aware of that

That’s why I believe that only in final agony, real unity can be achieved. In last moment, in front of the disaster which will have consequences for good

I think, we are not far from that day. Relatively
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
7 Oct 2007 /  #50
Well i'm all up for this Slavic Union, it would give those countries a chance to grow helping each other without having to take money from those other bigger nations in the EU.

I'm not to sure how the inter-relations would work but hay i guess where money is concerned any relationship can be formed.

I'll sign on the dotted line on the 'Slavic Union' vote and i'm British :)
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
7 Oct 2007 /  #51
Oh come on :) ask sb in Poland about slavic union :)))) to be serious

It is project like united Serbs and Croats or union of Israel and Iran union of Poland and Russia is the same crap.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
7 Oct 2007 /  #52
I'll sign on the dotted line on the 'Slavic Union' vote and i'm British

Why? An ethnically divided eastern Europe a good thing in your opinion?

edit: An Eastern Europe divided along ethnic lines...

Remember that there would be a hugely powerful Russia, no chance for the non-Slavic Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, Moldova or Albania.
Would it be like another EU - something you don't even like to start with?
When was the last time the Slavs were one people?
How many people other than Crow even want such a union?
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
7 Oct 2007 /  #53
Why? An ethnically divided eastern Europe a good thing in your opinion?

to be very very very honest and probably sounding a little selfish, if it ends the involvement of some of the countries in the EU then i'm all up for it. I don't particularly care if Poland don't see eye to eye with some of the countries involved, heck they have enough bad relations anyway as do we.

Would it be like another EU - something you don't even like to start with?

yes but the UK and other major nations would not be stumping the bill :)

When was the last time the Slavs were one people?

very good point

How many people other than Crow even want such a union?

thats a quesiton for those who may potentially be involved, maybe even worth a thread of its own? 'Would you like to see a united slavic union??'
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
7 Oct 2007 /  #54
to be very very very honest and probably sounding a little selfish, if it ends the involvement of some of the countries in the EU then i'm all up for it. I don't particularly care if Poland don't see eye to eye with some of the countries involved, heck they have enough bad relations anyway as do we.

Oh yes UK is one of the most pro-EU countries :) why your gov doesnt want to make referedum about EU constitution ? and we will see voting in your parlament ...

I have to surprise you, after negotiations we will agree to sign this constitutuon, and we will see what brits will do :))) I know you count on Poland smashing this treaty but it will not happen :)
Crow 150 | 9,566  
7 Oct 2007 /  #55
your neighbours hate you

our neighbors don’t hate us

Truth is that majority of Serbian neighbors admire to Serbs, for we exactly know our goal and that is Slavic Union. We must endure because it is worth enough.

Just, some powers hate us (not hate but, we are obstacle to them /orientation of Serbian mind). We were obstacle even to Russian hegemony under rest of Slavs.

We always chooses justice and we serve only to Slavdom.

This is how started our first conflict with USA (circa 200 years ago)

First paragraph of Serbian constitution when Serbs liberates from Turks:

1. Even slave if come on land of Serbs, is slave no more

USA demanded in diplomatic note that we remove that paragraph from constitution. Austro-Hungaria and British Empire taken same attitude, pressure.


Quoting: osiol
When was the last time the Slavs were one people?

very good point

I eleborated this, already. This is vulgarization. Slavs aren`t some kind of brotherhood (to think about Slavia only as exclusively ethnicaly based union would be abominatiuon to me).

Slavic Union would be above ethic origin. It is fact that Slavs originates from same genetic stock of people but, many more other people joined to our civilization thru time becaus ewe we sucessfull. So, we are brothers on the first place on the base of fact that we belong to Slavic civilization and live according to Slavic heritage.

Slavdom must be taken in consideration as alternative to Germanic world (think about it that way). In Germanic world/civilization (EU/USA/even NATO- for example), Germanic language is dominant and society is based on Germanic heritage.
Nigel 1 | 71  
7 Oct 2007 /  #56
If they had had a common market type arrangement a few years ago with their neighbours ,who also were non e.c,they could have done much to stop the inflation and economic hardship that they suffered.Items from those places were still incredibly cheap a little over 5 years ago.Living in poland became very expensive in a very short time.Wages were the same,the factories all started to close and the food began to cost the same as in the west.I was involved in the fashion trade.A lot of very fine garment factories went to the wall.I suggest that they would have had more time to restructure their busnesses and would still be making clothing now.A lot of industries were affected the same way as textiles.Those people really paid the biggest price for not cooperating with their neighbours.Those industries would now be restructured and Poland would be able to join the E.U as a fair partner, not one that will be totally diminished by the big players.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
7 Oct 2007 /  #57
Slavic union would sound weird for most Poles and I definately wouldn't like to be in any union with Russia but Central European Union (anything between old EU and Russia) would be OK.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
7 Oct 2007 /  #58
Slavs originates from same genetic stock of people

Linguistically, they are of the same origin.
Does that mean the Irish have changed their genes because they speak mostly English?
Linguistically, Slavic is still a member of the Indo-European family - Germanic, Italic, Celtic, Indo-Iranian.
Why chose this particular distinction.
Hungary is in a similar position to many of the Slavic countries, but you want to set them up as the enemy.
Hmm! That would be great for international stability.
misiek  
7 Oct 2007 /  #59
No one will throw Poland from UE never.. its 40milion people market very absorbtive.
All this threats are just a part of the game which is played every day in UE.

The main difference is that for instance :Germans and whole their press stands still behind their chancellor.
In Poland people fell worst because some journalist abroad, somewhere has written something wrong or whatever.

Unfortunatelly 75% of mass media in Poland belong to foreign capital, so its easy to forseen what will be 'private opinions' milions of people (especially young).

Agitating from the inside is very efficient way to get rid of opponent.

UE feels that Poland under PIS government is someone they cannot ignore... Its not Olek who will sign everything on the knees in the name of 'democracy'.
Crow 150 | 9,566  
7 Oct 2007 /  #60
I had opportunity to see on the Net a lot of ideas about possible Slavic Union. Idea is very alive and this is sum up of those ideas that I sow:

- There are even ideas that Slavs can first join to EU and then inside of EU form some cultural association (with or without Russia).

- some people suggest state organization as confederation, some as modern federation, some suggest alliance, some even think about parliamentary monarchy (dynasty wasn't proposed)

- other voices suggest only cultural union/association with or without EU,

- some people suggest association only based on security and protection from terrorism and natural catastrophes (some kind agreement between Slavic states)

I belong to people who would suggest that Slavs first wait for Christian re-union and then form Slavic Union. I would also recommend Confederation as best model for state organization. Also, before proclamation of Slavic Union I would suggest long open democratic campaign on the principle pro at contra (for or against unity) and I would insist on open debate about opened questions among Slavs (about antagonisms), with direct suggestions for solutions of problems.

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