What needs to happen in the world so that Poland and Russia form alliance?

hello freakazoid

Seanus

Seanus, don't distract him :) I want his opinion about the options for Serbia to join the EU, hence making them feel part of the European family and not all alone, insecure and the paranoya that is created by this fear of being all alone.

Maybe it's because they liberated themselves from the Turks in 1821? Perhaps. I want to know mr Crow's opinion. And I won't let him get away that easy :)

M-G (has Serbian friends)

yes spiritualy, their elite. They are German player here, same as Croatia and same as Bosnian Muslims

Well, they always joined Germany in both World Wars...But that doesn't matter now, Crow!

Crow! Give me your opinion!

M-G (and hurry up a little, will ya?)

M-G, what should Crow say? The EU is not a club that respects Serbs. They say they do but many know otherwise. Let me ask you, M-G, do you really think that all 27 (or however many there are now) Member States feel that European and protected? NATO provides more guarantees.

ooops, sorry for now people

one lady just caling me to join her in a dreams. Good night,... he, he... dreams... sweet dreams

Seanus

No, I don't think so no. There is too much diversion at the moment to really feel protected and European. Too many old scores that have been dragged in with the admission of the Eastern states. However, I concluded this in the middle of the 90's, when there was not yet reason to assume that the Eastern states would join the EU as it was at the time. And it was a secure block then. At least secure enough to make Serbia feel that she is not alone, because I believe that is the biggest issue Serbia has had throughout the times and that is why she also makes so much trouble, in my opinion. True, the EU has trouble accepting Serbia to the fullest, but that is of course due to what happened during the 3rd Balkan war. But she made (a) good step(s) forward by overthrowing Milosevic and with her co-operation with the International tribunal by handing over her war criminals. It may take years, and in my paper I pointed out a timeframe of about 20-25 years, but eventually I think it's best for Serbia to simply join in. And besides, I regard Serbia as kinda advanced, at least a lot more advanced than other countries in Central/Eastern/SouthEastern Europe. With some good will, she should be able to adhere fully and completely and become a (respected) member of the European community.

M-G (mourns the destruction of a beautiful country like Yugoslavia)

M-G i can't shake the feeling that you were and still are against admitting eastern Europe to EU.


Serbia is naturally alone at this point in history, no one has a particular interest in supporting or working against her, because they're such a sidetrack state though they were used as a muscle show against Russia, thats the only reason they lost Kosovo.


Is it best for Europe to admit Serbia?


Yes you also regarded Polish independence as given by the West despite Poles winning it themselves, there's a lot you assume or regard isnt there? Serbia is definitely well preserved but as far as advancements the only ones they beat are banana states like Belarus or Ukraine.


And draw us into the whole Balkan mess which historically has an explosive nature to it, nice.

Russia knows what it's like to face radical Mujas. Poland may have to face this threat in the future, we don't know. This could help them understand the threat and how Serbian and Croatian villagers felt when faced with marauders who were hellbent on their destruction.

Actually I was neutral about it, the way I am neutral towards the admitting of Turkey. I had some reservations towards it, because look what we have: Poland holds a grudge against Germany and Russia; Slovakia and Hungary aren't the best of friends, which came to light with that new language law of the Slovaks, Bulgaria doesn't like the Russians and the Greek, The Greek don't like anybody in the area, nobody likes the Romanians and Slovenia has still some issues, be it minor, with Austria concerning claims of Austrian territory, dating back to Austria-Hungary. In my opinion, these scores should be settled in a definitive way so that they cannot surface at some later point in time when they are already member of the EU and these things are suddenly an internal EU issue. But I also believe that everybody will keep his/her good sense and will not let these (mainly historical) issues dominate their acting anymore and look forward to the future instead of looking backward. That's why I was neutral towards the event.


This is the core of her problem: see, in the 19th century nobody in Western politics took the Balkans seriously. To them it was just some back area, not good for anything. When Serbia liberated herself from the Ottomans, it kinda expected to be welcomed with open arms by the West. When this did not happen, they got bitter and felt left behind, hence this pan-slavic idea of uniting all Southern Slavs in one superstate, Yugoslavia.

Taken into account that I personally believe that a so-called brotherhood of Slavs does not exist and never has existed, you have the following situation: there is Serbia, the first state fully independent from Turkey. Than you have Greece, which is basically a Balkans country too, although the Greek are not a Slavic ppl. Serbia wants Macedonia as there are Slavs there. Greece also wants Macedonia, because it feels it is part of Greece. Then you have Bulgaria. Bulgaria, whos freedom was the prize of the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878 got her freedom and much to Russia's dismay, she turned out to be an avid anti-Russian (one of the reasons by the way why Bulgaria has always joined Germany in both World Wars), so if Russia thought -and she did think that- to have a supporter in Bulgaria, she was deadly wrong. Anyway, Bulgaria wanted Thrace and Macedonia too. So the brotherhood of Slav ppl was a myth, at least in that part of Europe as all participants had different agendas and the same goal, Macedonia, which was still in Turkish hands at the time. So what happens? Serbia doesn't like the Bulgarians as they have set their sights on Macedonia too. Serbia knows that Bulgaria doesn't like the Russians, yet Russians are Slavs too. And Russia was the only one that took Serbia partly serious. They didn't really, but Serbia was handy because of the pan-slavic idea and since Bulgaria didn't like them, who came more naturally into play as ally in the area than Serbia? So it happened. I am leaving out of this scope the entire network of spies, killings of kings, etc. Would become too complex :) All this could have been prevented if the West had taken a clear stand. But they didn't care. Serbia on her part knew very well that the Russians were just using her. They knew that Bulgaria was the Russian's first choice. So although she had somewhat of an ally, she still felt all alone, paranoid of all the enemies around her.

The (at that time) empty promise of Russia to help her, gave Serbia enough boldness to stir as much as she could in order to fulfill her dream of Yugoslavia and eventually, not to be alone anymore. But first there was this issue of Macedonia. Some lame agreement was made with the Greek and Bulgarians about Macedonia and in 1912 the three of them attacked Turkey. Turkey was no match and surrendered after half a year. And now comes the main point of this long story: it became evident that a dream of Slavic brotherhood would always be a dream and never reality, because all three victors wanted a part of Macedonia according to her own terms. Bulgaria was the most greedy in this. In may 1913 she was attacked by a combined force of Serbia, Greece, Romania and strangely enough Turkey as well. She surrendered 3 months later. Macedonia became Serbian, Thrace became Greek, Turkey got a little part of Bulgaria and Romania got a few of her claims granted. Now Serbia had a bigger fish to fry: Austria-Hungary. When the First World War broke out, Serbia did not have any ally in the area. So far for Slavic brotherhood.

The point is that although Serbia sees herself as champion of Slav-hood and the great uniting force of the South-Slavs in the shape of Yugoslavia, so when this fell apart in 1991, she was left alone again and old paranoya came up. This is why she was so cruel and rude in her reactions. There is more to this story, but I think I tipped the main points as to where Serbia always feels alone and feels that she cannot trust anyone.

Should Serbia adhere to EU guidelines and get rid of the "Rogue-State" image that she has, I think the whole threat of an explosive atmosphere in the Balkans will evaporate. Serbia will get the feeling that she is part of something, that they take her seriously and that will make her feel at ease, whereas the lack of this feeling cause many of the trouble she caused throughout history.


If you get a more peaceful Europe if Serbia feels appreciated and part of something, then I would say, why not?


Poland needed the approval of the Allies after WW1 in a way. I don't know what would've happened if they would not have approved of a Polish independence. I have to admit that I don't see any reason as to why they would not approve to it: they didn't like the Russians because they had thrown the towel into the ring, and they liked to bother Germany as much as they can, so if the Poles wanted their own state and if this were going to be at the cost of German territory, why not? Anyway, I would say that if Serbia gets the opportunities given to her by Western Powers (I am only speaking of the EU, I leave Russia out of it at this point), then something nice should definitively be pssbl yes. It won't be a major force of course, but it will do nicely among mid-range states.


I think that explosive atmosphere will ease in due time, see my remarks about this above.

NB: I appreciate and acknowledge that there are grudges against Serbia and these have to be taken away, that's why in my conclusion I gave it a timeframe of 20 to 25 years before it will happen.

M-G (lots of typing, pfff)

Cool :)

:) I feel like Crow2, without the Pan-Slavic rethoric :)

Nb: the matter is of course a little more complex than this, I only tried to outline the main points. I doubt if the moderators would allow me to do a posting of about 300 pages :S

M-G (goes to bed pretty soon)

You may write 300 pages as long as:

- Your post is in your own, original wording

- You link properly to any sources, not quoting more than 100 words from each source

- Your post is relevant to the thread in which it appears and doesn't wander off topic.

Maybe the idea of a "core Europe" is not that bad after all...

Is it any surprise that this famous Pole, Kazik Staszewski, finishes by mentioning that war is ongoing in Russia? It's rather comical that he opens the song with some German.

His lyrics are hilarious :) Amsterdam gets a mention here, M-G.

A core Europe is a fine theory. M-G, maybe you'd care to step forward and write the Animal Farm type account of this? :)

You quote me, sir. Ah, I see you have corrected it already. Thanks.

Seanus

I caught the moment that he mentions Amsterdam :) He also mentions Bucharest, I think. Although I could not understand what he was singing, I think the title means something like "Soldiers Wives"? Anyway, although I couldn't understand it, I like the music and more specific, the chordscheme. Nice little punky ditty, will keep it under my bookmarks and watch it later on again.

Admin: thank you :) I hope you don't mind that I won't do this tonight? ;)

NB: I want to apologize for the grammatical errors and typos in my previous posting. It is late, I was tired and I typed fast :S Cannot correct them anymore.

M-G (one more cigarette and then off to bed)

I look forward to reading an informative, lengthy book from one of you on the topic, "What Needs To Happen To Forge A Polish/Russian Alliance?", published here, of course!

As long as Poland gets to be the pigs.

PlasticPole

First we need a few chairs.
Then we need some Disco Polo.
After that, the mixed-race couples will go lie on the ground.
Then the Jewish-Polish couples will jump over the mixed-race couples.
Then everybody else will form a circle.
And then every Pole in the circle will reach out to the black person beside him or her.
They all will lift their right-foot in the air.
And then they will make 5 hops towards the centre of the circle.
Then all the Polish men in the circle will let their pants drop and bend over.
And all the black men will penetrate all the Polish men anally and retreat until ejaculation follows.
Then the black men will drop their pants and bend over and the Polish men will do the same as the black men just did.

And when this is done, since nobody can sit anymore, everybody jumps three times, while cheering "halleluyah" and "kumbayah".
And then the Russian army barges in and shoots everybody.

And then there will be a Polish/Russian alliance.

M-G (ghee)

You should have no problems there, Sokrates ;) ;)

No problem ... but the trough is somewhere else ... :)
Are you really sure you want to be Marx, Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky? I thought Poland had enough of the commies.

How much Złoty go in one Euro?

M-G (money)

Depends on the exchange rate that day. As of today, 1 Euro = 4.1603674 Polish zloty - approximately.

Tusk should marry Medvedev.

When Putin while watching Twitter notice that Tusk doesn't like Kaczynski & Co
Then they become Friends!

Russian life.

Why does his friend wear a german team trikot???

Because the Germans were faster and formed an alliance with the Russians already? :)

fu**

maybe because of that Puta Putin decorated Croatian president Stjepan Mesic, with high ranked Russian medal. Mesic had crucial role in dissolution of Yugoslavia and he is proud follower of German policy in the region

Crow, you have to question why Putin sat back on the issue of Kosovo, didn't criticise the US heavily for going into Iraq and had no qualms about cutting off the gas to Serbia. He's a businessman and you know that as well as I do. I read the other day that he has plans to run for the top spot in Russia in 2012. His ethnicity is not that big a deal for him. Territory and money are. If their ambitions don't become more modest, Tusk simply won't take him on.

It's a reason why Poland looks at Russia as a traitor to the Slavic brotherhood! ;=)