JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND

Lesser, the problem is that feet are dragged for too long. Katyń occured in April 1940 and the Genocide Convention came into being 8 years later. You have missed the chance as the perpetrators are long dead.

Let's not be too pessimistic about the relations between Poles and Jews. I am reliably informed that Israel is a popular tourist destination for Poles and that they are well received by Israelis and treated to some nice hospitality. Let bygones be bygones. They know that Poles don't go there for revenge but to see their beautiful country (those bits not stolen from Palestine). Occupied territory says it all though.

If I failed to address your points, you did so with mine, merely dismissing them as lies. Because that is basically what you did. If I come up with something that proposes a different view, you did so. Remember Cała and Gross? Why do you bypass my statement that anti-semitism is not a Polish invention, but remarkable mainly ocurred when PL was in some form occupied by Russia or the SU?


Lucky guess :) I am sure there were deals made between Poles and Jews and I am also sure that certain Jews didn't kept their part of the bargain, as probably there were some Poles too that didn't kept their part of bargains. It's human nature. My problem with it is that an entire ppl being held accountable for what a few individuals did.

lesser

Aren't you the pro-life and anti-euthanasia freak? Hm. Anyhow, I have yet to see the first posting from your hand where you actually address differing points of view. So it seems a bit strange that you feel the need to make remarks that I would only preach for my own congregation. In fact, you accuse me of what you nearly always do :)

>^..^<

M-G (halleluyah)

Rubbish, most Jews who participated were not member of the party but local population that became turncoat.

Furthermore there is enough proof that crimes Jews commited on Poles were racially motivated, Jews targetted Poles specifically.


No he's not he's just in denial, if thats his view then i of course dont accept it as viable but let him stick with his and me with mine.


I dont know whether Maregea is a Jew or not, what is relevant is that he is a dishonest disputant, strawman arguments, blatant double standards and lies do not improve his standing.


Halfway right, yes Israelis welcome us but no its not particulary popular, mainly due to prices and very real dangers.


Lets not, there's enough people like Maregea ready enough to smear Poland with nasty lies, letting it go while there's people like that will only result in getting fvcked.


No i have proven that you are lying by posting a multitude of sources none of which you can question since i took effort to pick independent ones, so you escaped into ignoring them just like you ignore the relevant arguments in this reply.


I did not, i have adressed Gross extensively also proving him to outright lie in some places and manipulate facts to achieve a biased result in others.

Lesser is indeed that! There is an abortion thread which he ducks as the rational tends to trump the emotional when it comes to such an issue.

Sokrates, he is not aware of the position on the ground here and I think he'd admit that. I have lived here for 5 years and have never heard of anything like that. Ask SeanBM, he has lived in Kraków for a while and he hasn't come across it much, if at all.

Greg seemingly has but isn't it odd that he is anti-Semitic too?

People just see what they want to see. Some good lyrics from The Beatles song, 'Nowhere Man', are good here. 'He's as blind as he can be, just sees what he wants to see, nowhere man can you see me at all?'.

Btw Maregea Alina Cała stated that all Poles as a nation are responsible for the Holocaust and never ever went on to justify it, her books which i read never go into dynamics of Polish-Jewish relationship, racist Jewish trade customs or several large scale Jewish betreyals of Poland across history (1795 - 1920 - 1939/40) she's basically smearing all over Poles with an exceptionally biased book.

If thats your source i can quote some of her statements (all of them unjastified in her later works).

"Poles as a nation are in some way responsible for the death of 3 milios Jews"
michaelstanislaus.salon24.pl/107355,aparat-terroru-w-prl-rodacy-pani-aliny-cala

Thats the woman who's your authority? No wonder you're such a biased anti-Polish liar.


I have presented him with irrefutable proof, he not only escaped from it by ignoring it and derailing the thread but also attempted to lie and twist my own words, when i confronted him with respectable Israeli Jews condemning the racist practices of their own people he failed to respond.

Maregea knows the nature of the problem but being biased against the Poles he wil continue to lie and derail this thread no matter how solid the evidence he is presented with.

Sokrates, did she modify her statement later? Being wholly responsible and being "in some way responsible" are 2 very different things.

M-G, Sokrates made a point which he could/should have elaborated on above. I think I know that professor he was referring to and watched his whole presentation. It was a long time ago now though. Also, IDF deserters should tell you something. They also point to instances of foul play.

The bottom line is that we weren't there and thus we need to use our imaginations to the best extent possible that doesn't fit any biased pattern/line of thought. I tend to side with Sokrates. Why? Because fear of an absolutely ruthless extermination machine will overpower you. I often get the impression when reading people writing about history that they just can't get their heads into those times. It's all very well saying that Poles should have helped, which they did anyhow, but to imply that they were complicit is rather insulting.

Torq, I meant that they were his positions. I try not to name call (I occasionally do, mind you). I have said elsewhere that he reasons well, which he does. He is no freak!

Calling someone "pro-life and anti-euthanasia freak" makes as much sense
as calling him "anti-life and pro-euthanasia freak". The fact that someone
has different views on abortion or euthansia than you doesn't justify calling
him "a freak"... I'd rather call freaks the people described in the article below
(WARNING! DRASTIC PICTURES!)...

theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=7333

...they are certainly 100% pro-abortion.

No never, her claim and her works amount to "Poles saw Jews as aliens and helped Germans kill them".

She virtually never mentions the massive networks of Poles saving Jews or the home army effort, she never mentions Jewish crimes in the Eastern Poland or simple human relations, you read her books like mein kampf, interesting thing is that many of the people she put in her books to testify for her cannot be located, its not that they're dead, they're just not there.


Saying that the Polish nation is in any way responsible for the Holocaust is rubbish and there's no way to prove or justify such a disgusting claim (which she conversly does not).

But given that Maregea is a little racist liar its no wonder he bases his views on something like that.

I care less about this issue, this is not a problem of today's Poland. However definition must always apply to all times.


This reply reminds me famous communist slogan. When "the west" attacked Soviet human rights record, Soviet propaganda replied "and in the US they beat blacks!".

I highly doubt how this issue is related to this thread. However yes, I'm pro-life and it is always a pleasure to me to rebuke attacks of radicals from pro-death camp. Unscientific opinions represented by yourself or Seanus over this issue should be ignored, this is just lousy philosophy...

"Poles as a nation are in some way responsible for the death of 3 milios Jews"
michaelstanislaus.salon24.pl/107355,aparat-terroru-w-prl-rodacy

This is what you posted, Sokrates. I dare say that, in some instances, omission is almost as bad as commission but this doesn't really fit for the reasons I outlined above.

The Nazis came uninvited to Poland, M-G. How were the Poles complicit? In a nutshell, please.

Lesser, the definition must apply to the times? I very much agree with that.

Pro-life is generally used for the anti-abortion lobby or the ppl who are not in favour of abortion. Euthanasia is a different something and is usually not caught under the "pro-life" idea. And furthermore: if you willfully deny a woman to decide over her own body (let's not forget that it takes place in the woman's body, not in Lesser's nor yours nor mine) or willfully disrespect a person so much that you even deny him the right to die in dignity (what a great thanks that is to all that person has done for you - suppose it's your grandfather), then you are a freak to me, yes. And calling up dramatic pictures does not help the case of the pro-life movement. I see them nearly every Saturday posting in front of the GPO here in Dublin: a mass of aborted mashed up thingies that look like pasta sauce. It's disgusting. But it's HER body and HER decision. Not anybody else's. And as far as euthanasia is concerned, I can speak of this as I have experience first hand. My grandmother had a severe braintumer, which left her in a vegetative state. The family then decided to do the most merciful thing out of respect for her: they gave permission to stop the machines that kept her alive. The father of a Hungarian friend of mine was terminally ill and suffered excruciating pains, yet the family, good Catholics, didnt want to give him a dignified death by letting him sleep never to wake up again. I was there when the end came: he was screaming and in the end he couldn't scream anymore, because at the moment he died a huge fountain of blood came spouting out of his mouth. This man had raised them all their lives and worked very hard for them and yet as a thank you they didn't had the respect to let him die gracefully, the way he should've been remembered. I didn't speak to them for years after that. Just to give you a little taste of what "pro-life" and "anti-euthanasia" means. Yes, they are freaks to me, yes.

And Sokrates: if your mom makes you Jewish, then I am indeed Jewish, however, since I am from Holland, this has never been an issue and I am first and foremost Dutch and not even religious. Yet many, many of my ancestors were killed during the Holocaust. So, like you, I have a bit of trouble stating that Poles had it so much worse and that Jews were criminals.


This made me chuckle, coming from somebody who based his theories upon religion...


I didn't state that they were all complicit, but there were cases definitively that collaboration with the Nazis happened and it's probably more than Sokrates likes to admit. There is ample proof of incidents and Jedwabna is just one of the incidents that happened. Quite a few Poles were happy to see the Nazis take care of the Jews. Some out of ideology, some out of stupid hatred, some out of greed. Just like in any other country. There were Poles that helped the Jews and there were Jews in the resistance as well. But there must be something as the majority of the Holocaust took place in PL. That gives way to thoughts that maybe they did it there because the population silently agreed? Not saying that this is true, but you must admit that this simple fact gives reason to suspect that.

>^..^<

M-G (just enjoyed some very tasty spaghetti he made as the misses is not at home)

@MareGea:

I'm not willing to engage in an abortion/euthanasia issues discussion (like the questions
of pain, suffering or babies being "a woman's body") simply because I did it too many times
on various boards and the only thing that it taught me is that neither side can be
convinced and such discussions very often end up as slagging matches between the two
camps. I only oppose calling people, who have different opinion than yours, "freaks".

Provide a source when I based my theories on religion. You are a liar.

It took place in a German occupied Poland (with many camps, including Auschwitz, being
not even in the General Government but on the German side of the border, in the lands
which were incorporated into Germany after September 1939) and the local Polish
population was being terrorized and murdered without anyone asking them whether
they "silently agreed" or disagreed.

Such "theories" are really annoying and insulting to the memory of 3 million ethnic Poles
and 3 million Polish Jews who were all equally murdered by German barbarians.

I've read those stories too, M-G. I'm not sure if they are true as I don't know the people who told them. They could be spiteful gits with axes to grind for all I know.

Collaboration, M-G? What form did that collaboration take?

Please tell me about Jedwabna. You know, we often read about 'incidents'. Just think of the Racak Massacre. Damning lies spread by enemies of the Serbs. How can you be sure that they weren't lies, M-G?

I've also heard that Jews themselves joined the SS in rounding up fellow Jews. Why do you think that was? (assuming it was true).

It happened in Poland because there was a large concentration of Jews here (simply put) and Poland was:

1) Closer to Germany and

2) Not as tough a nut to crack as the Soviet Union where many more Jews were.

Hitler had to first take the easy steps.

I thought you were more logical than this but as usual logic gives way to defensive emotionalism. Torg corrected you properly but I would like to add this; three million Jews lived in Poland (and then occupied Poland) and the Germans built many camps 'where the Jews were'. It was for reasons of logistics and I recall reading some years ago a paper from some Nazi official suggesting that transportation issues would be lessened if concentration camps were built "in the heart of Judaism".

The more Jews blame others and never hold themselves accountable the more I tend to believe the Palestinians.

Exactly right, ZIMMY. The Jews are bickering amongst themselves and fractious disputes can be costly. Insiders will tell you exactly what is going on there.

Because a Jewish professor from Princeton or wherever says it is, it's a fact?...But, see, Jews don't commit crimes, right?

Torq

Did you not read the part where I write "not saying that this is true"? That states that it's one of the many views on the topics and none of them is a 100% true and the truth usually lies in the middle.


The Nürnburger Gesetze (Nueremburgh Laws) of 1935 made it impossible for Jews to enter the army, let alone the "elite" ranks of the SS. Only ppl with one Jewish grandparent were allowed in the Wehrmacht, but only in lower ranks. Therefore it's safe to say that there were no Jews in the SS.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom

I'm too lazy to list all the links in here, instead read this section of Wiki, it contains quite a few links:

What everybody seems to bypass is my repeated remark that Polish anti-semitism always rode high when Poland was in some form occupied by Russia or the SU. And compared to the Russians and Ukrainians Poles are like little lambs.


Did you miss the part where I actually blame Hitler and Stalin? They were the main responsible. If you missed it, I would suggest you read my posts in this thread again. Yes, the Jews should stop blaming others, but so should the Poles, Poles and Jews are not that different from each other in that respect. I find it a sad given fact that Jews do so. My grandmother, who was Jewish who lost her entire family and all of her in-laws, used to say: learn from the past, enjoy today and look forward to a bright future. And she also said: it's better to never forget and to forgive than to never forgive and forget. I think Jews as well as Poles could learn a lesson from those wise words.


Ah from under every stone they come crawling now :) I never said that, Joe, and if you read well, you'd know that.

>^..^<

M-G (needs some serious beer now that he has the house for himself, and given it's Hallowe'en)

I don't see any specific theory here, while I really discussed whole variety of issues on this forum. Give me at least one issue when I referred to religion to justify my claims.

Beside of that, even openly atheist Oriana Fallacci made similar statements.

I read that, all right. However, in the same sentence you said...


...suggesting that you possibly think that it indeed may be true, hence my answer
(I know that the "theory" isn't yours, because I've heard it many times before).


Well, not in this case. Holocaust was planned, organized and carried out by Germans
and when someone tries to put some of the blame on the local Polish population,
who were terrorized, persecuted and murdered then NO, the truth doesn't "lie in
the middle". It's simply wrong, unfair and injuriouse to the memory of both Polish
and Jewish victims of holocaust.

Our weakness in the West is born of the fact of so-called 'objectivity.' Objectivity does not exist. The word is a hypocrisy which is sustained by the lie that the truth stays in the middle. No, sir: Sometimes truth stays on one side only.

Oriana Fallaci (if I already mentioned her...)

Almost every kind of law known to man forbids murder, M-G, but people still commit it.

My bad, not SS men but just Gestapo. "...handing over the duty of human-hunting to the Jewish police and the Jewish labour bureau...We were all the more horrified when we saw that men with whom we used to shake hands, whom we had treated as friends, men who had still been decent people not long ago, were now so despicable. You could have said, perhaps, that they had caught the Gestapo spirit. As soon as they put on their uniforms and police caps and picked up their rubber truncheons, their natures changed. Now their ultimate ambition was to be in close touch with the Gestapo, to be useful to Gestapo officers, parade down the streets with them, show off their German language and vie with their masters in the harshness of their dealings with the Jewish population."

The above is from the chapter, 'A fine gesture by Mrs K', of his book The Pianist (Szpilman)

Care to explain, M-G?

Seanus

That's the part that a former friend of his comes to their house to have him and his brother join the Ghetto Police? That same friend however saves his life from the deportation train by pulling him out of the row.

Like said many times, my aim is not and has never been to bring the Polish ppl down in this respect. I know that there were certain elements within the Jewish population that for some reason saw their chance. Men who had no power before and were frustrated about that. I believe there is no solidarity between ppl as such: when the sh*t really hits the fan, it's always every man for himself. These ppl perhaps thought that they could get away from the ordeal the Jews would undergo in the deathcamps and I still like to compare this behaviour with the pigs-to-the-slaughter behaviour I mentioned some time ago: when pigs are being led from the truck to the area where they will be killed, you see the strange behaviour that they start biting and kicking each other in order to get back into the truck. Pushing the others to go first. But yet everybody will have to go into that killing room and all will be killed. The Jewish police is a good example of that imo. Eventually those policemen would be killed too, however the Nazis implied that this may not be the case. Also, war and extreme situations bring out the worst in ppl, never the best. Many Jews were mistreated, ripped off and the like, by their fellow Jews. This was the opportunity to take some revenge. It's a strange phenomenae that almost always happens in extreme sits. Bottomline, I think, is the will to survive at all cost. Show them that you are a good helper, then maybe they won't kill me.

Edit: behold some exceptions, noble heroism is a myth. There are instances of ppl betraying their own family in order to survive. Not very well documented, but yet they are there. Jews are ppl like everybody else. Examples are to be found in EVERY ppl. Jews are no different. Seanus, I would suggest Jacques Presser's "Ondergang" (in English translated as "Ashes In the Wind" as it gives you the most comprehensive impression on the Dutch attitude towards the Jews and will provide some insight in what the true Dutch spirit was during WW2. I really would recommend that.

>^..^<

M-G (beer)

Bingo! It's amazing that so many Poles risked their lives helping Jews under the most extreme war conditions possible.

...and for those Jews who hold Poles responsible I can only guess at the hate in their souls.

Aha, so when the Nazis killed Poles, effectively telling them that they were targets too, they were expected to deny their core essence? (i.e their survival instincts).

If it's every man for himself as you said above, why can't you apply that to Poles? They had to fend for themselves, living under oppressive conditions and living in constant fear.

Empowerment you said? Aha, so why didn't Poles flock in their droves to sign up for such duties? Maybe they did but I'm not aware of it.

Sorry, what is your main beef with the Poles behaviour in WWII again? (Let's say the Warsaw Ghetto)

I'll check it out, M-G. Thanks!

Was Żegota appreciated?

Oh I can, and I never denied that there were very brave Poles. Read my posts on the thread about the brave Polish soldiers in the battle of Arnhem. And Israelis do so as well, given the fact that there are many Poles in the "forest of the righteous" in Israël. I've tried to explain why there is some mistrust against Poles in some circles of Jews. Not all Jews hate Poles, I personally think that this stigma is due to the fact that there were Jews murdered (incidentally) by Poles directly after the war. Again, the Kielce pogrom on the 4th of July 1946, was not only clumsy in timing, but also it change the perception of the Poles in the West. The West couldn't understand how they could kill Jews again, so shortly after the Holocaust, no matter what the circumstances were. Later on they learned that it was mostly Soviet instigated and the focus shifted towards Russia.

Again, I am sure there were Polish heroes, but there were also Polish traitors, just like in any other country. I just got a bit fed up with the Polish mentality of whinging and whining about the past. And blame the entire world. And I also gave an explanation as to why the killing of the Jews received more attention than the killing of the Poles (which did get quite some attention in the West, but somehow some Poles fail to see that): the killing of Jews was an international thing as Jews from all over Europe were killed; more countries were affected by it. The killing of Poles was a more localized thing. You are Scotch, what, you believe would get more attention in Scotland: if there were 100.000 Scottish Jews were deported and killed or that there were 100.000 Poles killed, some 2500 km away?

Jacques Presser was an eminent Dutch (Jewish) professor and this book is his magnum opus. It's really a good read and you will be surprised what those nice and friendly and open Dutch ppl were capable of in WW2. But the Dutch have always admitted that there were a lot of bad apples in the basket and have reacted accordingly. I think every nation has to take responsibility for its bad apples as no nation consists of entirely good and righteous ppl, PL included. And sometimes I get the impression that many here think that it is. And then there is me, the obnoxious Dutchman :)))

ZIMMY

Zimmy, I would recommend to you Presser's book as well. Even though it's about Dutch society during WW2, it describes perfectly what I meant. Even though it's written by a Jewish professor of the University I was on, it's completely unbiased and gives the facts as they were.

>^..^<

M- (happy Hallowe'en Seanus and the rest!)

Why arent you adressing Jewish traitors and murderers, why all the double standards and targetting Poles while ignoring the Jewish criminals?

I'm sorry to back up in this conversation, but this following bit I have always found interesting, however it is nearly impossible to reseach since no one is talking. M-G said on this thread that he sees the armed Israeli security as a resonable precaution for Jewish youth visiting Poland since there may be a Palestinian terrorist lurking around. Unlikely these days, but...

...during the communist days (70s and 80s), this was a fact. The communist block provided funds, arms, and training to the terrorists. In Poland they were trained and spent their leisure time. Nothing shocking to me. If you had read the book or seen the film "Munich", about the killing of Israeli athletes during the Olympics, and the subsequent elimination of the Black September terrorists, you remember the name of Abu Daud on the list to eliminate. Now, here is the Polish link: he was shot 5 times, not fatally, in Hotel Victoria in Warsaw in 1981. Whether it was the Mossad, we can only suspect that it was. He naturally though it was.

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,949327,00.html

He wasn't the only one here. The communist State Security(SB) hosted many times one of the two most famous terrorists of that time: Illich Sanchez Ramirez, known as The Jackal. The other being Abu Nidal, of course. None of the ex-SB scum wants to talk about it. Why were the communists helping the terrorists? Suvorov explains it in "Spetsnaz. The Story Behind the Soviet SAS" in some detail if you are interested:


The whole book online: militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/index.html

Sorry for the interruption.

Is Israeli security reasonable in beating up elderly Poles? You're grasping at straws Jola, the protection is not against terrorists but against Poles since in their racism Israelis claim we're as good as nazis (their goverment did so via an official document).