Is the E.U. good for Poland??

I think it's not a matter of Christian roots or not, but simply of secularity. Why would we always include religion (here Christianity) in our decisions ? Why can't we only think on our own, and not with what wants the Church ? For me, religion is a personal matter and has nothing to do in issues such as European's or a country's.

Polly, Christian roots/values are much more than going to the church.

Yes G, but apart from going to the church every Sunday morning, people who are influenced by the Church, take decisions according to what the church says, and they take these decisions for everybody, Christian or not.

Amin, brate

Note, how we think same on this, no matter that one is Catholic and other Orthodox

This can be explained on many ways. One explanation, philosophicaly, could be this ... When faced (even forced to live with) with non-Christian values, we understand beauty of Christanity. When we (not you and me but some people) had opportunity to coexist as Christians we (some people) failed. Considering that we are both Slavs, our (of some people) failure is even bigger. By anology, EU is punishment.

:)

hundreds of thousands who take advantage of EU policies (such as the right to work elsewhere) probably wouldn't agree. overall Poland is doing well although many economic indicators suggest otherwise. everyday I walk the streets and I feel relatively safe, everyday I see new trams and buses and other improvements, and people are generally well dressed and look well-fed. Go to the Ukraine for a couple of days, then when you cross the border back into Poland you will say to yourself: damn, its pretty nice here after all - smooth roads, clean functional toilets, etc..

I haven't read all the posts in this, now lengthy thread, so I have a question which is basically the same one but asked in a different way: would Poland be better outside EU, while surrounded by EU member countries? Was there a realistic and plausable alternative?

So you ask whether Poland would be better outside of huge bureaucracy? The answer is obvious, I mean yes of course, no matter under what name this bureaucracy would hide behind. You don't need to be member of the EU to join the Schengen zone (Iceland, Norway and Switzerland that is expected to join soon). To keep free trade zone or allow foreigners to work in such zone, countries need to sign proper treaty and there is no need for any parasites like "European" institutions and their regulations. The best example is that that Poles cannot work in all EU member countries despite being a full member. They can work only in those with which they came to agreement in bilateral negotiations. Instead to swallow all those ridiculous EU regulations Poland should finally reject socialism and organize a whole bunch of economically liberal reforms. If you chose this way then others need to worry that they are not enough competitive.

Beside of that Poland is not surrounded by the EU, we border three countries which are not a members and they are not expected to join anytime soon.

interesting article, which is in connection with topic, as we would see

EU 'should expand beyond Europe'

BBC News

Thursday, 15 November 2007, 18:04 GMT
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7095657.stm


Focus your attention on this... ``Middle Eastern and North African countries``. I mean, forget about proposal that EU include Russia, that`s not serious or to say that is mentioned just to hide real EU intentions, intentiones and thoughts of ruling inteligentsia in EU.

Once, in time of Roman Empire, in time of Caesar, Marc Anthony and Cleopatra (and before them) existed idea about unity of Roman Empire, Greek world and Egypt. Those ideas in its beckground had nothing else then attempt for creation of Unity based on principle `una faca, una rasa`. To be more precise, ruling elites of Rome, Egypt and Greek world were (and still are) racialy same and share common Semitic origin.

So, no wonder that they tend to unite, to combine their economic and spiritual potentials.



Mr Miliband, who urges that EU 'should expand beyond Europe'

about Mr Miliband

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Miliband


Why would Mr Miliband think that he knows what is good for Poles and for Slavs in general? Why would our destine depend on Mr Miliband? Who gave that power to Mr Miliband?

Socialist utopia has not borders. Sooner it expand, sooner will be crushed.

Neither does the capitalist free market have any borders. I think what many Poles dont realise is that if you open up to market capitalism you must accept (what some would see as) its negatives as well as its positives. Globalisation not only means the globalisation of the market place through the removal of tariffs and the advent of free trade, but it also requires the free movement of labour (and by effect culture) to satisfy the needs of the market.

Its an internationalised system with which you could draw many similarities with the communist ideal ie there are no countries, just "the market". I dont think many Poles and others from the old communist bloc really realise this.

You confuse terms, what you describe is called "anarcho-capitalism" and have very few supporters in opposition to socialism.

Perhaps its classical definition would be "anarcho-capitalism" but many of us who have lived all our lives in the west can see that that is what the current form of western free-market capitalism is in reality. A constant undermining of the nation state has been taking place over the past few decades. There has been a constant move toward the privatisation of public services, the lowering of taxes (especially taxes on corporations), and a relaxation of regulation in the market place. All these changes are justified based on a belief that the "free market" will solve all problems.

A belief in the market as a mythical entity which will only find its equilibrium when all interference in it by Government is ended, has been adopted by many western leaders as their underlying ideology.

I would draw a comparison between those who believe blindly in the mythical free market and those who once believed blindly in the communist system. Of course, the fact that a refusal to regulate the financial markets properly is responsible for the USA now facing into its largest financial crisis since the Great depression is overlooked. Also, the fact that since the 1960s, the middle class, which has been the backbone of western society since the advent of the industrial revolution, has been decreasing in size, would suggest that free-market capitalism is slowly killing itself in its constant search for "growth".

Most Poles I know only compare free market capitalism with communism as if there are only two options available. Of course, when I point out these things to my Polish friends, they think I am espousing a return to communism (I am not). Life is not black and white. There are many grey areas.

IMO countries, such as Poland, which now have a chance to re-structure their economies and societies in a forward thinking and sustainable way, instead seem to want to follow western societies, especially the USA, down an unsustainable path based on nothing more than the search for debt induced quick money. The USA is bankrupt and the west in general is in decline.

EU isn't perfect but is good for Poland

Yes but this is not caused by capitalists but by socialists.


The EU is generally socialist, over-taxed. Free market doesn't even exist within of the EU, millions of regulations, tariffs, limits, quotas hurt our economy. Private business woks always better than state owned. I would agree that taxes should be reduced for average citizens as well. They reduce taxes to corporations only because they are corrupt.

Four ways to spend money:

1. You spend your money on yourself. You're motivated to get the thing you want most at the best price. This is the way middle-aged men haggle with Porsche dealers.

2. You spend your money on other people. You still want a bargain, but you're less interested in pleasing the recipient of your largesse. This is why children get underwear at Christmas.

3. You spend other people's money on yourself. You get what you want but price no longer matters. The second wives who ride around with the middle-aged men in the Porsches do this kind of spending at Neiman Marcus. (corruption among bureaucrats)

4. You spend other people's money on other people. And in this case, who cares? (This is goverment!)


You are wrong, better look at the EU parliament squad. This is good outlook for all Europe, majority of MEPs are socialists, greens and communists while their theoretical opponents are not such great capitalist warriors at all.


I completely disagree. This is other way around, Americans became more socialistic and pay the price. They increasing spendings on education, health care, military and different kind of unnecessary destinations. Finally goverment is out of cash, so the print money and cause inflation. Depression is natural thing and should be awaited, what they are doing now only make this crises to last longer.


These days everybody in Europe chose one way and this is euro-socialism... I would certainly try to avoid western mistakes. Especially Europe looks poor, while Americans lost their way after Reagan.


What a empty statement without argumentation. Read the whole thread and start polemics if you have arguments to back this position. I seriously suspect that most of EU supporters have no clue about how this organization works...

Nonsense.Education,health care and much of military in USA are private buisiness,no relation to state at all.If the colleges,universities or hospitals raise their fees,it is not a government's decision.Americans want to spend their money on them,not the government.

Military is more complex situation.

EU cares more about stability and preservation,they are not very open to new ideas.Many proffessionals(lawyers,ingeniuers,doctors) have it much harder in EU than in USA and unemployment is more than double in EU in comparison to USA.The Europeans are reluctant to change something because it will undermine traditional structures which guarantee stability.Persons in charge in Europe are very old and come from different generations.They want to have everything regulated and under control so that competition does not hurt the ones who fail.

I'm not talking about private businesses but government's spendings.

Americans spend a lot for their interventionist policy, wars, military bases all over the world. These are unnecessary spendings.

Spendings on education, Bush's No Child Left Behind Act

Health care, increasing spendings on Medicare program.


Plenty of them cheered for commies when young, old habits die hard.

Clinton started this program.Republicans actually cut many funds of it.


More complex situation.USA spends now 15% of the entire GDP on health.Do you find this bad?

Anyway Europe needs to change.There is no fair play in Europe.Too much intervention and constant change of the rules of the game,double standards etc.

Basically in Europe it is like this:If you have no connections,you will work for you,for the person who has and for the person who cannot work much.

If you belong to a clique,you will achieve what you want despite any incompetence.There are no obstacles.
If you do not belong to a clique,there are only obstacles and no way to be fully rewarded.You have to work for the benefit of others.If you react,you are a bloody liberal capitalist.If you prefer total state control in order to work as much as the others,you are a communist freak.

So some people have to work less(the socialists) while others have to work more(the scum) for the benefit of society.
In general the philosophy is if you are competent to work,then you have to work for the benefit of others who are not competent.If you refuse,you get punished.This is eurosocialism.It worked 20 years ago,it does not work so good now,because both the competent and the incompetent are pressed and nobody wants to lose his priviledge.

While agreeing that socialism, by its nature, is naturally opposed to the concept of the nation state, I would say that global capitalism is also. The need to constantly search for growth means that any barriers to trade such as borders, tariffs etc are in opposition to the ideal of a free market. While the veneer of Statehood has been retained, more and more of the tools available to the democratically elected representatives of the population (ie the consituent parts of the State), which allow them provide for the best interests of their citizens have been stripped away. This has been done through blind adherence to the priciples of liberal free-market democracy and ties in with your next point -


I disagree with your above statement. I think it should be re-phrased to read that private business works better sometimes than state owned. While very often agreeing on the problems which we all face this is where most of my Polish friends and I diverge in opinion. I think it is due to the fact that their experience of State run companies comes from a non-functioning Polish communist system. The fact of the matter is that in the west a number of State owned companies have deteriorated drastically following privatisation. Here in ireland, I would point to Eircom, our telecoms provider as being one example. British Rail in the UK is another prime example of a disastrous switch to private enterprise. There are other examples also. So it is clear that some services are best provided by the State.

With regard to the EU, I would agree with you when you say that it is bureaucracy gone mad. It has far too much influence over peoples lives within the Member States and I would agree that its influence should be kerbed.

However, to say that it is a socialist entity is not correct IMO. Whilst it engages in forms of outward protectionsim, inwardly it is a free market enterprise. Also labels of political parties mean very little in Europe these days and it has been that way for many years. Parties may say they are socialist or whatever in their manifestos but once in power all pursue the same liberal free-market policies because to do otherwise would mean that they would have no chance of re-election. I would see Labour in England as a prime example. Socialist in name but free-market libertarians in practice.


With regard to the States they have massive systemic problems because they have allowed a credit bubble to develop in the belief that to do so was to encourage free enterprise and financial innovation. We see now that non-regulation of the mortgage sector in the USA has meant that when some poor person is given a mortgage they cant afford in Alabama it ends up collapsing banks in the city of London a la Northern Rock. The Fed, and Greenspan in particular, encouraged this process by lowering interest rates to previously unheard of levels to make money as cheap as possible so that people could keep consuming. In other words Americans have been buying things they dont need with money they dont own for about two decades now. The globalised free market which they espouse and have created, has encouraged their companies to go to cheaper countries to produce goods. In addition the Chinese,Indians and others produce most of the goods and services that the USA consumes. The fact that their dollar has been so strong has meant that this could continue but it could not go on forever. Now that the dollar is being destroyed by the Fed they will soon be unable to keep consuming and recession/depression is on the cards. The US to me, is a perfect example of why free-market capitalism is doomed to failure. Yes some people will get very rich but the rest of the people get gradually poorer and poorer and slide in to debt slavery. IMO it is a form of economic extremism and extremism is never good. But I think this is another example of me and a Pole agreeing on many of the problems but seeing totally different reasons and solutions!

I think the point I have tried to make a number of times with Polish friends of mine is that IMO because communism was a disaster Poles seem to want to go in the extreme opposite direction. I understand why and I think it is very a natural reaction. However, as you have pointed out, the west and USA in particular, are not great examples. However, Poland seems to want to follow them down the same path. We seem to be agreed that this may not be the best thing to do, especially at the moment.

Personally, having visited Scandinavia, I think there is a lot the rest of us could learn from those societies which seemed to me to have a good balance between personal freedoms and rights along with also having good social systems and public services.

Anway I've gone a bit off topic here. Suffice to say that I think it is better for Poland to be in the EU rather than outside it. My real problem would be more with the direction the EU is taking of late.

What happens is that Chinese,Saudis etc lend Americans money to buy their products,that is they support US economy.In retrospect Americans allow them keeping fixed ratio of chinese Yuan to american dollar,so that every time dollar falls,not only american products become cheaper and more competitive in european market but also chinese products become more competitive in Europe and do not lose their competitiveness in american market.

To solve the problem without having to let the euro lose value,EU decided to ban some branches of chinese products,which means that some countries like Italy were hit by the cheap chinese textiles while some other suropean countries do not have to face the chinese competition and keep their strong position inside EU market which in further means that european citizens fund some european products to increase their competitiveness,in other words they have to pay more than the Americans have to for the same product when they pay more taxes as well to support more extended state business and when their slaries are lower due to state regulations which have come from Brussels buerocracy.

So why Italians do not react for example?Because they are given funds in other branches of economy like agriculture which would not be competitive without EU subsidies which come in order to compete the american products which are also subsidised by the US and so US has to press EU to cut subsidied to agricultural products and let americans overflow the market(eg discussion about genetically reformed products and their ban in EU) while EU tries to keep out cheap american and chinese products by implementing quality and strict environmental etc regulations(Greens are also useful).

Result of all these unnecessary wars and regulations is that Europeans have to work more than Americans in order to be able to buy less products.

Americans own more "products" because they have borrowed more money. They have been on a binge for over twenty years now and have become so accustomed to this way of life that they have forgotten that eventually everybody has to pay back what they borrow. With the serious downturn in their economy many are finding that they are in real trouble. Look at this article from California about hundreds of people who have lost their homes and are now living in tented cities, similar to what you see in South America.

newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view_article.php?article_id=108210

As for the point about the dollar, Arab oil has been priced in dollars. The Chinese have been buying dollars. All this has kept America afloat. Now that they are devaluing their dollar, do you think the Arabs and the Chinese will want to hold onto their dollars? I dont think so. Once they start to sell which they will soon have to do, American dollars will not be able to buy much. I think we are seeing the beginning of end of Empire, much like USSR in 1980s.

They do not have the luxury of choosing.The debts to them will be paid in devaluated dollars if USA needs to do so.
You should also know that if ever a crisis or recession hits US economy the first who will suffer are South American nations cause american investments in these countries will be withdrawn and US willl press for paying their debts to it.Europe will suffer great too.And of course some asian tigers will see collapse.

I do not understand why euro is kept so high and not devalued when EU GDP growth is so low in average.A devalued euro would boost exports and make many products competitive.But these old folks in Brussels do care only about stability,they miss the chances to hit strong.

That is true. But that is also why in my opinion, they will very soon stop running anymore debts in dollars. There are rumours that the Chinese recently refused to buy anymore US backed Government bonds despite high level US officials having travelled there to try and convince them to do so. The Americans are running out of options. IMO oil will be valued in yuan within 10-15 years. Remember that for all but two of the centuries since the birth of Jesus Christ, the Chinese and Indian economies have been the largest in the world. Once they complete their current industrial revolutions it is quite likely that this will be the case again.

The European Central Bank has a mandate simply to keep inflation under control. They leave job creation ie growth, to the Governments. In the US the Fed has a dual mandate of dealing with inflation and attempting to stimulate growth. Remember also, that the Fed is a private institution as opposed to a State facility. Not many people actually realise this. Therefore, they have the interests of Wall Street at heart, not the citizens of the democracy which they are supposed to serve.Thats the difference.

Anyway, I fully support the ECB's position in not cutting interest rates and keeping its eye firmly on inflation. I agree with you that this policy does not stimulate massive growth but it means that most people (citizens of the European countries) have homes to live in and enough to eat. The policies of the Fed have enriched bankers and Wall Street traders at the expense of the ordinary people whose real (ie non debt-induced) income has been decreasing in that country for many years. They are reliant on debt to survive. Now that the banks can no longer provide them with the cheap credit they require this is the result

youtube.com/watch?v=jmeHiFZUWtE

and this is only the beginning...

Personally, as somebody who worked in America as a young man and who loves that country, I find it very sad to see what is happening to it. The elite have effectively used the savings of ordinary people to enrich themselves by inflating a massive credit bubble which is no different to a pyramid scheme. They have done this under the guise of liberal unregulated "free-market" economics. America now faces into a depression NOT a recession. There is a huge difference. The need for constant "growth" is at the heart of the problem as without "growth", the pyramid scheme economy cannot function.

Rumours.


Not at all.Even a small range war can increase their margin of profit.


Why?Yuan is as stable as the dollar.


Once they complete their industrial revolutions they will be able to produce more,better and cheaper products for americans to buy.


Simply?Very simple indeed.Only one mission.


But how can the governments achieve growth if exports are pressed by the expensive euro?How can national economies face the competition of the cheap chinese and american products?


Of course they have.Because they see that the one is connected to the other.In my view they have guidelines and sometimes experiment n order to find viable solutions.They have found some with astonishing results.


I do not think the ambition of the average EU citizen today restrains to have a home to rent and enough to eat.

Ok - I take your point about the rumours. Until they are substantiated they are of no real importance.


The point is that China is in the process of becoming the worlds leading economy. In my opinion, in another 10 or 15 years this will be widely acknowledged and the yuan will be the currency of choice, especially with regard to the pricing of oil. This will have further negative consequences for the American economy and wil devalue the dollar even further.


The American economy (even though Wall Street may see it differently) is totally dependent on consumer spending. A huge portion of this consuming is done on credit. Essentially, Americans have been buying things they dont need with money they dont own. Im sure you are aware of the credit crunch which is strangling the availability of such credit at the moment not just in America but worldwide. In such circumstances Americans can no longer afford to keep buying such items. If however, the Chinese and Indian economies continue to grow at current rates, they will have a much higher domestic market due to the higher levels of wealth in those countries and so will be les dependent on American consumers. The huge increases in the prices of commodities such as grain etc over the past couple of years is due to a movement away from the consumption of just rice in these countries. Basically Indians and especially Chinese are wealthier and are consuming more. The same happened in Europe and America in the last centuries.


Im not too sure I understand


The fact is that they cant. If we want to continue to live the way we live in Europe, we must find alternatives to competition on price in the manufacture of cheap goods. The Asians have a competitive advantage with which we cannot compete. I would not include American goods in that category. They are relatively cheap only because of the weak dollar. In reality, American corporations have exported most of their real jobs to cheaper economies.

IMO the only way to compete would be to invest in research and innovation. For example, what about alternative energy sources which could be harnessed to lessen our reliance on imported oil? Of course, the problem with that would be that the so called "free-market" advocates within the financial world would never allow it because they would stand to lose so much if the oil industry suffered any set back. Why do we not have electrically powered cars yet? Why do we not use the Atlantic Ocean, our greatest natural resource or wind power of which we have plenty, to creat alternatives to an oil dependency which just helps to enrich elites in Arabia and Wall Street?

The truth is that free market consumer capitalism cannot function if people are educated. Educated people will not feel the need to waste money on branded items they dont need. If people save money rather than spend or invest, "growth" cannot be achieved and the system collapses - as is happening in the financial world at the moment.


Inflation can destroy an economy and a country if left unchecked. One of the causes of Hitler rise to power was Weimar Germany's hyper-inflation induced collapse. Mugabe's Zimbabwe currently suffers from something similar. I think something similar may have happened post-communism in Russia and Eastern Europe but maybe you can educate me on that front. The point being that inflation inducing cheap money helps the stock market investors but hurts the ordinary people who can buy less with their dollar/euro/zloty. Yes it makes it easier for them to get loans but when uneducated people are provided with the opportunity for cheap and easy money the result is a foregone conclusion. Many seem not to be aware that some day they will have to pay it back.

You have also spoken about investment. Why would a company invest in a country with high inflation and by effect high costs ie wage inflation, house price inflation, food inflation etc etc ? Quite simply, they wont. Inflation is what causes high costs. Thats why they are leaving the west for cheaper economies. And that is why the Fed are responsible for killing the American economy. Not the Wall Street elitist economy but the real economy in the real world. And that is why I support the ECB stance because they are attempting to maintain some level of competitiveness in Europe.


Yes. You are right and I agree. However, my point was to draw a comparison between the living standards of the poorest of Europe, most of whom have home and food, with the plight of the Americans highlighted in the youtube link which I provided earlier. If that is what happens to ordinary working people while Wall Street Bankers make millions because of Fed policy, I will choose the ECB

Now USA consumes 40% of world's oil.Do you think it will change in the next decade?Who determines the currency of paying if not the seller and the buyer?

Furthermore Yuan is fixed artificially to have such a low value.If it is left to take its natural value,it will rapidly increase in value harming chinese exports.If the dollar is devalued,Yuan is also devalued.Why should the chinese have interest in keeping devaluated Yuans instead of equally devaluated dollars?


As always.Consumer spending drives the economy,the demand for goods.What should drive it instead of that?


You mean nobody gives credit to Americans?


Asians are sly,they do not see things the same way.All these things,consumption and savements have different meanings for them.


Europe can compete doing what it does.Using cheap labour from Eastern Europe,millions of illegal immigrants who are nowhere listed and pressing people to work more hours than the ones they are paid for,all this for the ''good of the nation'' etc.The point is how long can you have people agreeing with that especially when they see another alternative.


The game of innovations and research is already lost.Americans are far ahead to be reached due to their heavy research funding and brain drain.


I think the truth is that free market consumer capitalism cannot work if some people in the top who gvern decide what the needs are and what should be consumed and what not.When they decide that people make irrtional decisions and so they have to protect them from their harming freedom,then free market capitalism does not work because it is no longer competitive free market capitalism but designed model.

The E.U is splendid for the Poles who have never had it so good! It might not happen even in my life time but there will come a time when the British people will be scratching at the door of Europe to get out. I never voted for the U.K. to be in Europe and never wanted it. Now, we are beginning to see the consequences of our own actions. Another ten years of hell and we will be bankrupt.

Nope, Bush started this (2002). Republican Party lost its way in the sea of populism. I have watched Republican debate in SC and remember Ron Paul stating that Republicans doubled the size of Department of Education. In the past they were against such department at all.




Better they would left the money in people pockets, they know better how to spend it than any government.

I agree with you about Europe. Unfortunately Americans seems to tend to follow Europe, especially Democrats.


I agree but the point is that global capitalism (anti-state concept) have little support among masses in opposition to socialism. Thus socialism is far more dangerous.


I don't know much about Ireland. It also depends from competition, whether politicians blocking concessions for such activity. In Poland we had the highest price in Europe of telephone calls. Their internet provider offer is poor as well. Company was "privatized"

by French state owned company.

Railways are state owned and in pathetic shape. They just would like to be subsidized by government over and over.


Even inside of the EU you have export limits, production quotas and millions of "quality improving" regulations. We could export cheap food let say from Africa but bureaucracy bribed farmers and imposed high import tariffs. They spend about half of the EU budget to subside agriculture, completely insane idea.

Yes - it is already changing. Asian countries are developing very quickly and as a result, they are consuming more and more oil. This trend will continue over the next decade.


You are actually agreeing with me. Yes, the Yuan must eventually be allowed to take it real value. However, the Chinese will attempt to ensure that their economy is well developed before that happens. As they are massive consumers of US Government bonds (on which the American economy is overly reliant), an increase in the value of the Yuan would force a massive loss of income in the US with possibly terminal effects.

As you yourself say -


While I wouldnt couch it in those terms, I agree that the Chinese Government's ultimate motivation is not to engage in trade but to replace America as the worlds leading power. While I am not in favour of this I believe that they are closer to doing so than many ordinary people in the west realise.


I agree that spending money and consuming goods and services is good for the economy.

However, the point about current consumption levels in many western countries, and the USA in particular, is that the money used to consume these goods and services is borrowed. Therefore, it must be paid back. That means it is a false economy producing false wealth. A real economy is based on trade, and in particular, exporting more than you import. You then consume with the profits. America no longer makes a profit. Therefore it is living on borrowed time. Literally.


That is the definiton of the "free-market" ie free movement of goods and services across borders. Are you against the "free-market" and "competition" ??;)


You obviously know more about these innovations than me and I would like to hear about them because it is something which I am interested in. However, it does not mean that we should not attempt to use the resources which we have in Europe to increase efficiencies. As I said above alternative fuels would be a good start and would make European industry more competitive when it competes with oil based economies.


As a Pole (I presume you are Polish), I understand your sentiments with regard to any form of State interference in the economy given your country's history. However, we have a phrase in Ireland "you dont throw the baby out with the bathwater". In other words, because something was bad in general terms ie communism, it does not necessarily mean that the other extreme of the spectrum is good. Indoctrination exists in many forms and is not simply a tool of Governments. Much private sector advertising, for example, could be described as a form of indoctrination, especially when aimed at children. There is a whole industry devoted to that practice amongst "free-market" corporations, many of whom studied the methods of the greatest propagandists such as Stalin and Hitler in devising their own material.

My point would be that much of what passes for education and comment in the "free" world has become no more than a form of controlling propaganda in favour of what it (and it alone) calls "freedom". In other words, if you're idea of freedom is different, you are not free to live that way!

I would imagine that one of the reasons that most Poles are so anti State controlled enterprises was because communism was an unelected and unanswerable machine which did not allow the citizens of the country any say in its functions. Can you not see any similarity between that and providing unelected corporations and business leaders with the unregulated and unlimited right to control the trade and the provision of services in democratic countries? Under democracy Government are answerable to the people in the form of elections. Who are the "free-market" business advocates answerable to??

I live in S. California, and the tent city is near my aunt's home.

First of all, I believe America has been in a full blown recession for a few years. The dropping of federal interest rates, real estate agents encouraging applicants to lie about what they make, so they can afford an over-inflated home, twice what it was just 5 years ago! THAT in itself, said something was going bad, very badly. I am having a hard time for people who fell for it, and spent beyond what they had, and the ARMS. I didn't purchase a home then, as I felt it was a bad time - despite my half-brother saying I was a fool in front of mom, who laughs with me, now that I didn't snatch up homes to flip with him! Told the fool, he was wrong...and the bottom may keep falling for 3 more years, until it stabilizes. But then, perhaps the Baby Boomers are finally retiring, and ditching the homes they caused to become over-inflated back in the 1970s, yadda-yadda-yadda. They aren't going to sell for what they thought they would. Those who sold in 2005 are the only winners I really know, at the peak of the breaking bubble.

And yes; I call it a Depression! There have been 'For Sale' signs in many neighborhoods around me, with the same homes up for over a year now. The fat cat banks thought they were going to make a killing out here, and are now in major trouble, since many owners STRIPPED the homes of even the kitchen sink, as they were being foreclosed upon!

Next, in California, we do use many Windmills in the deserts, especially near Palm Springs. We have good terrain for it, provided construction comes to a halt - wait, oh, it has.

We purchase Hybrid cars in California, which use both gas and electricity. You wouldn't recognize most of them, but Toyota and Honda and now GMC make full sized cars with that setup.

But then, the Federal Govt. doesn't like S. CA, and now the state is sooo desperate for people, I saw the first commercial run by our Guvernator, to come to California, and work here!

Right...where all you can find, even with a Master's Degree, a minimum wage job, $8 an hour. Taking into account for inflation, that is disproportionately higher than should be, this is much LESS than I made as a teenager working with a subcontractor building homes during the summer in the Midwest! I could purchase much more with $5, than you can with $8 today.

It's a mixed bag of tricks. Too far left, too far right, isn't good for Poland. Joining the EU gave Poland benefits, but she is also able to depart if she so wishes. I think it was a good idea, for the moment.

Hello JuliePotocka - sad to hear about the situation in S. California. We're heading down the same road here in Ireland, Id say about a year to 18 months behind the curve in the States. However, we're in probably more trouble because we have ceded our capability to lower interest rates to the ECB. Our economic cycle is out of sync with the Germans and French and we will suffer as a result.

While joining the EU would appear to have been of benefit thus far for Poland, IMO Poles should stay out of the EMU - follow the British example and retain real sovereignty or else end up having their economy run for the benefit of Germany/France.