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Is the E.U. good for Poland??


anuska  1 | 30  
17 Oct 2007 /  #91
I think EU should become partner of USA and we can cooperate in some cases, when atcked by other forces, like China or Russia we should help each other, but to be partner we have to have our European forces. And about being partner of sb we need to have constitution ...

in an ideal world this would be great but while u have people in power like bush it will never happen. And while money is the only word on these leaders lips... things will stay as they are and more then likely become even worse before better.....so until they all go running with their tails between their legs like mr blur we can only sit back and watch this world be distroyed by arse holes
lesser  
18 Oct 2007 /  #92
ok I havent read it ... but I m sure Giertych has showed all disadvatages (he is against it) and I think that it will be good for Europena countries to stick together.

Giertych is an authority for a supposed liberal? :)

And about being partner of sb we need to have constitution ...

To which theory or practical solution you refer? I would like to read something on this subject, because so far it is a mystery for me .

What is funny that you write that we must have this constitution and you are completely disinterested what is inside! But your unwillingness to read this document betrays its flawed character, you except this to be very long, very boring and completely unreadable. While constitution should be short and absolutely obvious from definition.

Look how good constitution should look like, few pages not volumes...
upr.podlasie.pl/staticpages/index.php?page=konstytucja
usconstitution.net/const.html
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Oct 2007 /  #93
European Union leaders have reached a deal on a landmark treaty to reform the 27-member bloc, officials say.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7051999.stm

so PiS supported EU treaty just before their defeat in elections, and PO is definitely pro EU
jdthebrit  2 | 50  
22 Oct 2007 /  #94
I'm British Nigel - and am pro Europe. We can't compare the two countries. I vote Labour in Britain and would vote PO in Poland if I had the vote, and in many ways the two are different.

In my view the EC is good for Poland because, if for nothing else, and I'm sorry here all you Polish lads and lasses - but your government wouldn't have a clue what to do on very simple matters if they were not led by the hand and actually shown how things should be done.

I refer to mind blowingly "trivial" matters like free toilets in restaurants and in supermarkets.

I think EU should become partner of USA and we can cooperate in some cases, when atcked by other forces, like China or Russia we should help each other, but to be partner we have to have our European forces. And about being partner of sb we need to have constitution ...

Sure - and when did America help Poland in WW2? If they hadn't been attacked you would still be waiting.................

The relationship between Poles and America = individual Polonia wealth. Europe is where Poland's future lies.
lesser  4 | 1311  
22 Oct 2007 /  #95
but your government wouldn't have a clue what to do on very simple matters if they were not led by the hand and actually shown how things should be done.

I agree, Polish politicians indeed think in this way. They have absolutely no idea what should be done and they are afraid that they will destroy everything. So this is better to pass all problems to Brussels. One could think if they have no idea why they are in politics but this is rhetoric question I suppose.

On other hand Brussels bureaucrats know what they want, they are confident. When their project will be finished we will wake up like Josef K. in Franz Kafka novel "The Trial".

I refer to mind blowingly "trivial" matters like free toilets in restaurants and in supermarkets.

Judging by the fact that this new constitutional treaty is 63,000 words long, issues that you mentioned are also included. What would we do without bureaucrats!
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
22 Oct 2007 /  #96
Sure - and when did America help Poland in WW2?

oh yes, what I have written so many times here about what I think about our relationship with USA ... history is history all in all read about Polish -Ukrainian relationships in past esp 1920 (Petlura army) ... and we cooperat now and they considere us the best friends (according the focuses)

but I think weak Russia is in our business it means in all EU-USA countries business, weak Russia means chip mineral resouces ... and peace :)P

Nobody will use atomic bomb and send tanks to coutries who can use nulear wepon. Now we are in different reality, Russian hakers atacking some EU countries, China making the same to get some practice and expirience, does the same with EU and USA. Mineral resources it is long story ... On wihich side we are? Of course EU and in some way with USA.

We have some new unions, EU is much bigger, USA wants to create North American Union (Mexic Canada USA) they copy EU because they feel EU is stronger. Now there are two different alinaces, EU and USA ... we cooperate with each other ... but I can feel EU dont want USA donination, and It is grate idea, Microsoft in EU court paing for breking EU rules, 10 years ago the were coming here and dictate rules and game we play in Europe, now it changes. But there are some things we can do together ... esp new Players like China (Regime) ...
joepilsudski  26 | 1387  
28 Oct 2007 /  #97
The Poles are not surprised. They have been lectured time and again by Brussels, the cesspool of European Union corruption, for their so called homophobia. All the Poles did was to refuse to include homosexual lessons in school curriculum. And it gets worse. The European Court of Human Rights(actually the European Court for Pervert's Rights) found Poland guilty because it banned a "gay pride' parade in Warsaw. This the Polish government did in order to save strutting gays from being attacked by affronted citizens.

LibertyForum
lesser  4 | 1311  
28 Oct 2007 /  #98
The EU bureaucrats have full mouth of democracy loving slogans but when is needed they neither care about democratic elections or how people voted in referendums. I'm not great admirer of democracy but for sure I more honestly stick to its rules than those cheap propagandists.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
28 Oct 2007 /  #99
joepilsudski

so why you have chosen USA ? Why have you left Poland ?

he EU bureaucrats have full mouth of democracy loving slogans but when is needed they neither care about democratic elections or how people voted in referendums. I'm not great admirer of democracy but for sure I more honestly stick to its rules than those cheap propagandists.

your ideas have 1% of support ... maybe because you are not greate admirers of democracy ...
lesser  4 | 1311  
28 Oct 2007 /  #100
your ideas have 1% of support ... maybe because you are not greate admirers of democracy ...

Rather not because people are not aware of this. Also I would not generalize. Still I don't think that switching to other system would be positive for our country these days.

However this is thread about the EU rather than UPR, so you should rather comment their undemocratic recidivism. Or perhaps some holy cows cannot be criticized at all?

By the way, do you think that a system where two drunkards have together twice more votes than one university professor is smart?
joepilsudski  26 | 1387  
28 Oct 2007 /  #101
joepilsudski

so why you have chosen USA ? Why have you left Poland ?

I was born in America and have lived here most of my life...I have entertained the idea of moving to Poland, but due to the weakness of the dollar right now, and also my apprehension about getting work there, I am hesitant about making the move...I am a Polish-American.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
28 Oct 2007 /  #102
as to EU ... yes I agree they are bureaucrats, hords of officers, thousents of regulations ... but all in all we are part of it and we can influece on direction it goes... in EU we dont have only German bureaucrats but more normal countries like UK, Ireland, Holand, new European countries. We have a lot of bureacracy in our country but in comparison to some EU states we dont have this problem ... There is hope we will simply over vote our ideas in EU ...

By the way, do you think that a system where two drunkards have together twice more votes than one university professor is smart?

No ... I know this idea, you can read about similar idea which was tested for example in XIX century in UK, there votes of rich were more important than poor (or simply rich could vote and poor not)

I was born in America and have lived here most of my life...I have entertained the idea of moving to Poland, but due to the weakness of the dollar right now, and also my apprehension about getting work there, I am hesitant about making the move...I am a Polish-American

It depends on your occupation all in all you can be English teacher in private school ;)
lesser  4 | 1311  
29 Oct 2007 /  #103
There is hope we will simply over vote our ideas in EU ...

Almost all projects of reforms in the EU are created in the European Commission and they are bunch of unelected bureaucrats. Naturally they will never willing to reduce its own influences. Those who stand against their vision of the EU, they will label "Anti-European". These days this "accusation" seems to be somewhere around "fascist". Such people are not worth to discuss with them anything (zaplute karly reakcji :) ), so there will be no public debate.

No ... I know this idea, you can read about similar idea which was tested for example in XIX century in UK, there votes of rich were more important than poor (or simply rich could vote and poor not)

This was very oligarchic. I would power of the vote make dependent from how educated are voters. Then it would be up to them to learn and gain more influence. Of course I realize that many educated people are fools as well but anyway quality of such elections would be higher. Politicians would need to start fight for educated voters, because today they offer only populism directed to majority of ignorant crowd.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
29 Oct 2007 /  #104
OK I agree. I would sell half of their properties in Brussels, all in all now we take so many EU funds that we shouldnt be worried about costs of bureaucracy there. I just think about citizens of UK, Holland or Irealand. They pay for those all officers ... no comment. Later they take back regulations like "carrot is vegetable" ;)

Idea of EU is grate but we should try to change it, now there is more countries who look on this bureaucracy and think that it should be done different ... so maybe in future when we will not be "new one" ... and there will be more coutries will share our point of view ...

This was very oligarchic.

For first think it isnt bad idea, but just imagine situation when you have to pay for your education, and only one group of people who have enought money to pay for it ... are Oligarchs.

When we look on which countries are the richest. We see that democratic or those who have mineral resources ... we dont have oil or gas ;) so maybe it is better to stay democratic :)
lesser  4 | 1311  
29 Oct 2007 /  #105
Later they take back regulations like "carrot is vegetable" ;)

Oh yes, I know many such examples. Frog is a fish (slodkowodna). But it is even more funny if you know why they did it. But such details just proofs that a bureaucrat give a damn about truth, he can say that black is white and white is black and you must deal with it.

For first think it isnt bad idea, but just imagine situation when you have to pay for your education, and only one group of people who have enought money to pay for it ... are Oligarchs.

Rich people always have easier way, this is not an excuse. I have pleasure to met many educated people from poor families. Their motivation is strong while those richer have a problem with this.

When we look on which countries are the richest. We see that democratic or those who have mineral resources ... we dont have oil or gas ;) so maybe it is better to stay democratic :)

Ok, so lets look at the times when absolute monarchies were in majority. Somehow exactly the same countries are the richest. They were the richest long time before democracy appeared. They earned their wealth at that time. Also look at Chile, if Pinochet would not overthrow democratically elected Marxists they would be still poor. Actually Chile is far in front of other South American countries.
osiol  55 | 3921  
29 Oct 2007 /  #106
before democracy appeared

Not democracy as we know it, but Ancient Greece?

The EU has much room for improvement, but it is better that it is there.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
29 Oct 2007 /  #107
Chile is long story, when you look on details Pinoched isnt hero at all ... but maybe I will leave this issue.

Oh yes, I know many such examples.

Actualy my sister works in EU funds, and when she told me how it looks ... They spend so enormous amounts of money on officers and procedures ... long story. Now it is good business for Poland but Eu could use less money and have the same efect of help they give us. Reality looks horible, they train officers and this officers train next officers, other officers checks projects, other checks officers who check projects, nextly there are officers who check procedures ...... We are definately on plus so we shouldnt complain ;) but it could be done better...

The EU has much room for improvement, but it is better that it is there.

agree, EU is very good ;) but it realy could be better and less bureaucratic.
lesser  4 | 1311  
29 Oct 2007 /  #108
Not democracy as we know it, but Ancient Greece?

This is aside subject. However in democratic ancient Greece (indeed this very different kind of democracy) pedophilia was common and in good taste! How this ancient Greece ended anyway? ;)

The EU has much room for improvement, but it is better that it is there.

agree, EU is very good ;) but it realy could be better and less bureaucratic.

The left always wants to improve socialism by some very small liberal corrections. Centuries passing away and they still failed to do so. The foundation of the EU is socialist and as such cannot be successful. This must be the other way around, the foundation should be liberal and then we could think what socialist improvements we should install to preserve proper balance. The EU has no bright future, cannot compete with Asia in longer run.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
30 Oct 2007 /  #109
oh yes so join some Asian countries like Russia or China ...

I prefere EU :)
lesser  4 | 1311  
30 Oct 2007 /  #110
oh yes so join some Asian countries like Russia or China ...

I don't think that Russia have bright future with their current political elites. However Chinese want to make all country look like Hong Kong and they don't waste a time for democracy just doing so. Of course they are far too much brutal according to my taste but anyway they will overtake the EU without problem. Also Asia it is also Japan, South Korea, Singapore. Other less developed countries of this region will rather follow them than socialist European Union.
masterpolack89  1 | 5  
11 Nov 2007 /  #111
Thread attached on merging:
Poland in the EU -- we are not doing well.

In the EU, we are not that good at all. When i hear of Poland's growth, I thought they were flourishing. But when i looked at the stats, they have the highest unemployment rate in the EU, a GDP of 16000, and in the bottom 3 countries in the EU next to ROMANIA AND BULGARIA!! THAT IS PATHETIC! It kind of makes me ashamed of being polish in a way. I hope Poland's economy GROWS so we can be as rich as Germany or trance. I dont mean to be rude or anything, but thats just embarrassing.
Grzegorz_  51 | 6138  
11 Nov 2007 /  #112
Take my advice - stay where you are, learn German or French and say that you are from one of these countries. That's should be a good deal for both us and you.
slick77  - | 127  
11 Nov 2007 /  #113
It kind of makes me ashamed of being polish in a way.

You get ashamed very easily.
masterpolack89  1 | 5  
11 Nov 2007 /  #114
I know I shouldnt get ashamed easily, its not like I am, but its a letdown. Even if poland does grow strong, so will other countries, and poland wont be anywhere near germany or irelands rank. =(
slick77  - | 127  
11 Nov 2007 /  #115
Poland has been economically and politically free for only 18 years. Do you think that Germany, UK or particularly Ireland became rich instantly? Don't worry; Poland is going to become rich.
z_darius  14 | 3960  
11 Nov 2007 /  #116
when i looked at the stats, they have the highest unemployment rate in the EU, a GDP of 16000, and in the bottom 3 countries in the EU next to ROMANIA AND BULGARIA!!

Let's see:

1. Between 1939 and 1945 Poland lost over 65% of economic and intellectual infrastructure, destroyed methodically by the Germans. Building, roads, factories, bridges, universities, schools were destroyed. In the aftermath of WW2 many industrial installations in usable condition were dismantled by the Soviets and transported to the USSR.

2. Soviets made sure that Poland (Unlike Germany) was not allowed to benefit from Marshal plan.

3. Between 1939 and 1946 Poland lost many of the best of Poland's assets - professors, scientists, teachers, doctors, dentists, officers, journalists, and others were either murdered in mass executions or sent to prisons, gulags and concentration camps. That's tens of thousands of the nation's intellectual asset.

4. In the years after WW2 Poland lost lost many of the best of Poland's human assets to emigration, prison, murder and persecution due to Soviet repression.

5. In the years after WW2 Poland was systematically plundered by the Soviet occupant through the so called EEC (RWG in Polish).

6. In the years after WW2, because of its continued resistance to the communist ideology and the Soviet occupation, Poland's technological and industrial development was deliberatelly kept at bay and slowed down. EEC (actually, its Soviet bosses) decided Poland would be an agricultural country, with only absolutely bare and essential focus on high-tech, industry, services and science.

(I won't even go into over 100 years of Poland's partitions and the losses suffered during that period)

Considering the above, I think Poland is doing just fine. Certainly better than countries such as you mentioned, even though those countries did not suffer even half of what Poland did during WW2.

You can feel all the shame you want, but I can't help but assume that it is because you are likely a young fella, with a strong need of instant gratification. That kind of gratification is not easilly attainable by any nation that barely started to breathe freely only less than 20 years ago. If you expect miracles then some form of religion may possibly help with your anxieties.
Deise 07  3 | 76  
12 Nov 2007 /  #117
Why would you feel ashamed of your country because it has a lower GDP than other countries? I dont understand that comment to be honest. I've noticed that many Polish people place a very high emphasis on money and prestige but that is a little extreme no? IMO Poland is doing very well. Unemployment is decreasing on a monthly basis and in time there will be more prosperity. Two of my Polish friends, both engineers, are returning to Poland after Christmas because they say that it is now easier to get work in Poland than in Ireland. Unemployment is beginning to rise here and its possible that we will see a sharp economic downturn. It wouldnt make me feel ashamed to be Irish though.
OP Nigel  1 | 71  
13 Nov 2007 /  #118
Don't worry; Poland is going to become rich.

you mean the owners of
poland,which wont be your lot
lazybones  2 | 52  
13 Nov 2007 /  #119
In the EU, we are not that good at all.

we do fantastic sausages.
Crow  154 | 9340  
17 Nov 2007 /  #120
If you don`t mind Polson, i would remove our disscusion hire... and, let`s try to found out is it EU good for Poland, having in mind key principles of EU as society...

I want to elaborate this subject and fact that EU isn`t based on Western (Slavic) and Christian but on Semitic heritage.

On the first place, I would underline that i don`t use word Semitic in some pejurative sense. Just, trying to use appropriate designation for historic and modern chategories.

Now, let`s see what one article/petition... `Accession of Turkey to the European Union`, telling to us...

Even creators of this petition couldn`t avoid to admit (to be proud with) Semitic roots of today`s Europen heritage, placing Christian roots of Europeans on the end of importance...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/2006-06-01

Today's Europe has its roots in the rationalism of ancient Greece, in the notion of law of ancient Rome and in the tradition of Judaistic and Christian culture.Humanism, Reformation and Enlightenment have contributed to accomplishing the freedoms we enjoy today.

Christian values were even denied when European constitution was written...
Crunch time for Convention as deadline looms near

Published: Thursday 5 June 2003
euractiv.com/en/future-eu/crunch-time-convention-deadline-looms-near/article-112254

Consultations between the Praesidium and Convention members have apparently led to a rapprochement of views and will allow the Convention to continue searching for consensus on EU Constitution draft.

Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski denounced the failure of the draft constitution to mention Europe's Christian roots. "I am an atheist and everybody knows it, but there are no excuses for making references to ancient Greece and Rome, and the Enlightenment, without making references to the Christian values.

To be continued

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