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ARE POLISH PEOPLE TAKING OUR JOBS OR DOING OUR JOBS??!! DISCUSS.


Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #61
Denying them freedoms is not the answer, Mister H. They were lumbered with communism and are only now enjoying the benefits that Dassonville and Van Binsbergen established. It's more a matter for national states to resist the fullest manifestation of those freedoms by imposing limits and using national apparatus to do so. There are agendas working higher than them and that's the problem.

I also believe in that but we were multicultural a long time ago. How can Britain be proud of GDP, infrastructure and feelgood if they are not created by Brits themselves? There has to be compromises somewhere. What gets me is how so many British graduates lost the battle to immigrants. Maybe it says something, in a comparative sense, about our respective education systems. Also, the weak enforcement of the minimum wage was another fault of the British system.
Wroclaw Boy  
27 Sep 2009 /  #62
Mister H:
Immigration needs to be properly controlled, a cap placed on numbers and an end to being able to get married for a passport. End of story.
Which means no more EU membership, yes?

Ahh didnt many EU countries cap immigration? isnt there a certain amount of flexibility within EU? Its not as black and white as that.

And everything you say can be directly attributed to the Great Council House Selloff. It's a fact that if you want to work in London for minimum wage (why would you, when you can have a much better quality of life elsewhere?) - then your living conditions will be absolutely dire.

You keep dodging the point and coming up with rediculous excuses. Just admit it man immigration directly affects millions of people financially in the UK. I dont want to hear about Thatcher or how undercut labourers should have started their own recruitment companies and or become Directors and employed foreigners.
Mister H 11 | 761  
27 Sep 2009 /  #63
Denying them freedoms is not the answer, Mister H. They were lumbered with communism and are only now enjoying the benefits that Dassonville and Van Binsbergen established. It's more a matter for national states to resist the fullest manifestation of those freedoms by imposing limits and using national apparatus to do so. There are agendas working higher than them and that's the problem.

With freedom comes responsibility and it is the responsibility of the UK Government to control immigration so it does not take place at the expense of the natives (for want of a better expression).

Ahh didnt many EU countries cap immigration? isnt there a certain amount of flexibility within EU? Its not as black and white as that.

Some did and some did not. The UK did not and to this day I cannot understand why. There was probably some backhander in a smoke filled room somewhere that guaranteed no cap on EU immigration into the UK.
Wroclaw Boy  
27 Sep 2009 /  #64
The UK did not and to this day I cannot understand why.

What i cant understand even more is why oh why are no leading poloticians tackling this head on, do you think theyre afraid. Im sure it would actually increase theyre popularity. I suppose theyre worried that everybody has a foreign friend, relative etc.. and would be polotical suicide.

I wonder what kind of results a survey would throw up, the last time i was in the UK many people i spoke with were complaining.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #65
Mister H, I go along with that. The onus is on the Member State in question to conduct enquiries into the personal circumstances of prospective residents and ensure that, if the said prospective resident doesn't meet baseline criteria, that they actively put themselves in a position to do so by pursuing vocational training or becoming self-employed. This is incumbent on them (the government) as there is no quick-reference figure which they have recourse to.
OsiedleRuda  
27 Sep 2009 /  #66
Again, you're blaming New Labour for something that is directly Thatcher's fault - the sell off of council houses. You're being priced out because everyone is now a homeowner - and everyone wants to make a profit from their home. Councils were under no such obligation to make a profit - and the difference in rent between social housing and private housing is astronomical today as a result.

70% of British housing was owner-occupied, the last time I looked at the statistics (a couple of years ago - i.e. before the recent rises in repossessions, etc) - which means around 18 million people in the UK were not living in owner-occupied accommodation. That's not quite "everyone is now a homeowner".

Much of the property currently in the hands of private landlords was never council-owned in the first place, or at least not in living memory. Property which used to be rented to (or bought by) British families is now often used as multi-occupancy accommodation, often to foreigners, with greatly increased rental prices for the property as a whole.

This buy-to-let nonsense and pricing-out of British families has gone hand-in-hand with Labour policy since 1997. As I said before, immigration is not the ONLY reason for these problems in the UK, but one wouldn't exist without the other.
Mister H 11 | 761  
27 Sep 2009 /  #67
What i cant understand even more is why oh why are no leading poloticians tackling this head on, do you think theyre afraid. Im sure it would actually increase theyre popularity. I suppose theyre worried that everybody has a foreign friend, relative etc.. and would be polotical suicide.

The issue is so thorny that no one wants to touch it and they are afraid of being called racists. However, as you say if they tackled it correctly their popularity would increase and also the likes of the BNP would become redundant.

What the three main parties need to do is agree on a policy on immigration, so that it is not a political football at the next election.

It wouldn't be political suicide if handled correctly. Everyone I talk to about this agrees it is out of control and I don't just talk to white, English people ;-)
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
27 Sep 2009 /  #68
Its something that is beyond me too, why ow why is nobody in a powerful position doing anything about or immigration issues??

I believe it has something to do with the fact it is so out of control, it would take radical steps to change. Could you imagine if the government actually got serious and hot about immigration 'no your not coming in' 'if your here ilegally, we are coming to find you and throw you out' the government would probably be alligned with the Nazi's!!!! Who wants to take that kind of risk.
Wroclaw Boy  
27 Sep 2009 /  #69
What the three main parties need to do is agree on a policy on immigration, so that it is not a political football at the next election.

what will happen is one of the parties will introduce an immigration bill, the other two will sit back and observe then copy or criticise.
Mister H 11 | 761  
27 Sep 2009 /  #70
I believe it has something to do with the fact it is so out of control, it would take radical steps to change. Could you imagine if the government actually got serious and hot about immigration 'no your not coming in' 'if your here ilegally, we are coming to find you and throw you out' the government would probably be alligned with the Nazi's!!!! Who wants to take that kind of risk.

They would need to be radical and it would involve some very uncomfortable decisions, however, putting British people first means that you're putting first the needs of a whole range of people. Being British doesn't always mean being white and doesn't always mean being Christian (and I'm not suggesting that you think that at all), therefore being aligned with the Nazis just wouldn't be correct as being British means so many different things now.

what will happen is one of the parties will introduce an immigration bill, the other two will sit back and observe then copy or criticise.

And we'll get nowhere and the madness continues.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #71
That's not needed. Where you have non-discrimination, you have forced integration if you know your demography. Immigrants move to high-wage areas and you know they will move if you confer the right on them. Globalists are spearheading this campaign and I can see it in the writing of European legal instruments. However, I referred to world governance too. Goverments love immigrants, especially so-called socialist governments, as it allows them to implement programmes to realise their manifestos. Canada is an interesting case. Immigrants are, to my knowledge anyway, eligible for almost all the benefits that native Canadians get. This happened just over 10 years ago. It was the case that NGO's and voluntary groups formerly organised it but such work was passed to the government thereafter. It's part of a global drive to harmonise/streamline.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455  
27 Sep 2009 /  #72
EU memberships fine as far as trade and business is concerned, but total freedom of movement is insane and countries that join the EU should all be on a par with one another.

If that principle had been applied to Britain in 1973 ("The sick man of Europe") - then the UK would've been in even more of a mess than it was that decade. Anyone who knows the history can tell you that Britain was economically screwed at that point - and needed EEC membership desperately. The subsequent endorsement of EEC membership should be seen as a reflection of those times - that Britain needed EEC membership.

Is it really fair or moral of Britain to then turn round and refuse membership to those in need?

I believe in "British jobs for British workers".

So you believe in an ending of attracting the best graduates in finance to the world's financial centre - London? Or an end to attracting desperately needed new talent to Scotland, which even launched the Fresh Talent Initative in order to attract quality individuals that just couldn't be found in Scotland?

If employers pay decent money and don't expect people to live on fresh air, then there are decent enough British people out there already to hire.

And you think employers will happily pay more money to British workers? Given that many small to medium businesses have been laying off workers left-right-centre, just where is the money coming from to pay higher wages to Brits to ensure that they have a high standard of living?

The thing is that there *isn't* enough decent British people to take the jobs. It's been documented widely that Brits just didn't want to do the jobs strawberry picking for instance - although this is partially the fault of a ridiculous benefit system which doesn't encourage part time work.

I notice that no-one here remebers that many Brits moved to Spain and took advantage of the freedom of movement of labour. If Britain closes her doors, then the rest will close the door to Brits - and everyone will suffer. Do you really want that? Personally, and I'm sure I'm not alone - I quite enjoy the fact that I can move to 26 other countries and work without any formalities whatsoever.

Ultimately, the UK can't have it both ways - either they have freedom of trade and thus freedom of movement of people, or they have neither. Free trade outside of the EU means a similar idea to what the USA does - free in one direction. Does anyone genuinely believe that the EU is going to be like "okay, no problem, you can leave and yet keep all the benefits?". Of course not - and I imagine a huge tax slapped on British residents in Spain will be the first measure.
Mister H 11 | 761  
27 Sep 2009 /  #73
If that principle had been applied to Britain in 1973 ("The sick man of Europe") - then the UK would've been in even more of a mess than it was that decade. Anyone who knows the history can tell you that Britain was economically screwed at that point - and needed EEC membership desperately. The subsequent endorsement of EEC membership should be seen as a reflection of those times - that Britain needed EEC membership.

I think that we should have tried our luck and remained outside of the EU. AS I have said before, it is fine to have sensible trading arrangements, but immigration should be a process that you go through to see what you can "bring to the table".

Mass immigration: No!
Controlled immigration: Yes!

So you believe in an ending of attracting the best graduates in finance to the world's financial centre - London? Or an end to attracting desperately needed new talent to Scotland, which even launched the Fresh Talent Initative in order to attract quality individuals that just couldn't be found in Scotland?

But do we really get that or do we just get overrun with builders, burger flippers and toilet cleaners that all have young children and pregnant wives ?

The thing is that there *isn't* enough decent British people to take the jobs. It's been documented widely that Brits just didn't want to do the jobs strawberry picking for instance - although this is partially the fault of a ridiculous benefit system which doesn't encourage part time work.

I notice that no-one here remebers that many Brits moved to Spain and took advantage of the freedom of movement of labour. If

Yawn ! The British are lazy and what about the ex-pats in Spain........

Change the record.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #74
In a meritocracy, that would be fine Mister H. However, we must accept the bad with the good in reality. There are some 'undesirables' who too have their place. The question becomes, 'who has the right to engineer societies by picking and choosing?'. Universities can do so based on certain criteria but we must be careful of overt selectivism in workplaces. I hear what you are saying, though. As long as there was some elasticity in the procedure, it would be the lesser of 2 evils.

Overrun? Well, if the demand is there then there is no problem. If it wells up, as so often happens in times of recession, then the social state kicks in and performs its role.

Pregnant women make their contribution too. Or do you think they should be eternally punished for what Eve did? ;0 ;) ;)
Mister H 11 | 761  
27 Sep 2009 /  #75
Overrun? Well, if the demand is there then there is no problem. If it wells up, as so often happens in times of recession, then the social state kicks in and performs its role.

The demand is there because of the wages issue. Virtually every cleaner in the offices I have worked at has been foreign and it isn't because the British see certain jobs as being beneath them.

Pregnant women make their contribution too. Or do you think they should be eternally punished for what Eve did? ;0 ;) ;)

The NHS does not have the resources to deal with so many more women giving birth and if a foreign woman arrives with young children and/or is pregnant, then what exactly does she contribute ? Nothing, she is just another cost burden.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #76
Wages are only a part of it. If there are no jobs, there are no jobs and it's that simple. Maybe it's encouraging Brits to aim higher than ancillary positions?

I agree. However, the enforcement of EU Law doesn't operate on the street level enough. Strictly speaking, it's in contravention of the law as the Directive expressly states that any prospective immigrant is not to be a burden. However, we all know that reality is different.

It's just a question of being realistic, of compromises being reached between the drafters of EU Law and the complexity of the reality of everyday life.
pawian 181 | 17,079  
27 Sep 2009 /  #77
Everyone discuss this - Are Polish people taking our jobs or doing our jobs?

Yes. Intelligent Poles take British people`s jobs. It is normal. More intelligent guys push less intelligent out of the labour market.
Let it be an incentive for the British to study harder and develop their intelligence.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #78
Many Poles fill ancillary jobs, pawian. Please show me some stats on how many Polish academics currently work in the UK. It's not about studying so much these days, it's about skills and contacts.
pawian 181 | 17,079  
27 Sep 2009 /  #79
I am talking about my ex-students who went to work in Britain and stayed. They are intelligent guys who have helped their British bosses control the mess and chaos in their companies and workplaces.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #80
Oh, how did they manage to do that?
BritishEmpire - | 148  
27 Sep 2009 /  #81
That's because you're a traditional Brit who has to buy sandwiches every day and a coffee. If you made your own sandwiches and took a flask, you'd be looking at 25 pounds a month for lunches maximum. I can knock up a huge pot of pasta and sauce for about 3 pounds (in the UK) - so really, where are you getting 25 pounds a week for lunches from?

Of course, if you can't cook properly and rely on ready meals, I'm not surprised you end up spending over 25 pounds a week on lunches.

Wow you know a hell of alot about me considering we've never met, saying that your right i am a tradition brit and bloody proud of it!.

Sandwiches are for school children and girls. Pasta and sauce for the whole week, Now thats the sort of answer i was expecting from a pole :D, thanks for not disappointing me but no one wants to live on pasta and sauce for health reasons alone.

Fair enough i eat some of my lunch on my short breaks but on average the contents of my lunch box is around £4 and its made by myself (except the fruit & yoghurt) as i cannot afford to buy prepared meals.

If you have any sense you don't buy value food.
pawian 181 | 17,079  
27 Sep 2009 /  #82
Oh, how did they manage to do that?

Used their intelligence. Simple. :):):):):)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #83
That's know-how and knowledge, Pawian. Intelligence is a multi-faceted concept which doesn't necessarily apply here :) :) :)
pawian 181 | 17,079  
27 Sep 2009 /  #84
You are wrong. :):):):) Having know-how and knowledge is one thing. Applying them in an effective way is another and it requires intelligence.
Well, I am reporting what my ex-students tell me when we get into contact. They all say they were surprised to see the messy organization in their workplaces upon their arrival there. They helped to sort it out, got due respect and decided to stay.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #85
It requires opportunity first and foremost, Pawian. It requires the knowledge of what needs to be done. So they were hired as cleaners then? ;) ;) As I thought.... :)
pawian 181 | 17,079  
27 Sep 2009 /  #86
:):):):):)
Nope. One guy is a computer software expert and programmer. He is currently in charge of the computer department in his company.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #87
Well, good for him. He likely received some good training and picked up vital knowledge on the way. I will say that Poland has some really top-notch IT guys. As for tidying up the company, well, that's a different function from making a program. Plants tend not to be bosses and you should know that as a teacher, my friend :)

I'm sure you've read up on group dynamics :)
pawian 181 | 17,079  
27 Sep 2009 /  #88
I'm sure you've read up on group dynamics :)

Nope. I prefer not to read. Soap operas are mu staple culture. And forums. :):):):):)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Sep 2009 /  #89
I'm pretty sure that you had to read such things at uni :) :)

Anyway, plants aren't often bosses.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455  
28 Sep 2009 /  #90
Sandwiches are for school children and girls.

Nothing wrong with a decent sandwich. If there was, why are they sold everywhere pre-packaged in the UK?

Pasta and sauce for the whole week, Now thats the sort of answer i was expecting from a pole :D, thanks for not disappointing me but no one wants to live on pasta and sauce for health reasons alone.

Beggars can't be choosers - if you can't afford to eat 'good' food because you're on minimum wage, then you can't afford to be fussy. Anyway, the point is that it's possible to live on minimum wage, not what's desirable.

Let's see - our minimum wage friend wants to get a week worth of lunches. He buys 1kg of pasta for 86 pence from Tesco, 1kg of tomatoes - 1.66, 330g of black olives - 68 pence, a bottle of passata to thicken it up, 85 pence and some ham - 1.64 for 400g. Grand total - 5.68. That's enough for 5 lunches, and let's assume he throws in some sliced apple (24 pence) a day. Grand total - 6.88 for a week.

All those prices are taken from Tesco Chelmsford - which isn't a cheap place to live.

Fair enough i eat some of my lunch on my short breaks but on average the contents of my lunch box is around £4 and its made by myself (except the fruit & yoghurt) as i cannot afford to buy prepared meals.

But this is exactly it - you're choosing to eat fruit and yoghurt for starters. People on minimum wage don't have this luxury - it's one or the other. In fact, yoghurts are quite pricey in the UK.

If you have any sense you don't buy value food.

As I said, beggars can't be choosers. If you're on minimum wage, it's often not a question of 'sense' but more a question of affording to eat.

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