New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more

There is no "collective conscience"...do you think the Germans are robots? What's your problem!
Shouldn't you ask your church where their holyness was all the time as they got chummy with the Nazis?
Maybe many Germans made the error to listen to their church leaders who were so not into resistance to Hitler??? To bad for them...







Bad luck for a people where most still believed in the church and their advise..

Where was the conscience of these Pfaffen then?

Give me examples, please.


I disagree, I think something can be legal and immoral but thanks for telling me what I hold.


you are just repeating yourself now.


Something that churches never do, moral laws, there are venial sins, mortal sins and don't forget all the "Thou shalt nots" in the ten commandments.

A lot of them outdated and all made up but that does not mean some of them are not sensible, logical and reasonable.


So Atheists can not be moral? that is not correct.
And we know not all religious people are moral, soooo?...


People need laws and morals.
Through education and common sense in more drastic situations by force.

Put it this way, close the jails, get rid of the police and the courts and see what happens, do you think it would last or are the prisons just full of Atheists?.

Nothing to do with my religion. I think I already explained to you that I wasn't
raised a Catholic. If I chose to be a buddhist or pagan I could do it the same
way I chose to be Christian.


You see, Sean - even though you know virtually nothing about Christian theology,
you are constantly trying to ridicule my beliefs writing stuff like "jumped out from
behind tree", "has been hiding" and so on. The only reason I'm still talking to you
is because I like you, you stubborn Irish twa*t.


No.


I already explained that as well. Men have free will given to them by God.
If they wish, they can use their free will to build concentration camps
and kill people, but eventually everyone will have to answer before God
for all his deeds.


More like an agnostic I'd say, and later probably close to anonymous Christian
(without a church).


Now you're just talking through yer arse, Sean. When did I claim moral superiority?
I only said that it is comfortable for some people to be atheists and I stick to that.


Some are, some aren't. There are many scoundrels who describe themselves as Christian
and many great men who are atheist - that's true, but again you're stating the obvious.


But you DON'T BELIEVE in afterlife and all the absolutions, confessions etc. etc. are
connected with people's belief in the immortality of souls and the afterlife, so it's
obvious that you don't do it.

As regards responsibility for one's actions HERE ON THIS EARTH, IN THIS LIFE there
is no difference at all between atheists and relgious people - we all have to abide to
law and take responsibility for our actions.


I don't feel comfort AT ALL. It makes me tremble with fear when I think that one day
I will have to face the judgement of the living God. I would feel much more comfortable
if I knew that when I die, I just die - my conciousness will just dissapear and that's it.
Unfortunately, I'm not an atheist so I don't have that comfort.

And who made their successes possible? Feudal lords? Oh! German Pagan organisations?
Now I feel that your mind is simply not able to wrap itself around the concept that science in the Middle Ages as we know it would not have been possible without the Catholic Church. And since I don't want to cause any strokes or such, let's just forget it. I give up repeating myself.


I did ask the question. Reason being that I can't think of a more popular source from which people develop notions such as Copernicus' "grave mistreatment" and that he was never able to publish his book because of the Church (since we all know that, quite to the contrary, he published his book through the Church).

I meant no offense; I personally know lots- er, multiple people who are avid fans, despite otherwise being generally very intelligent and pleasant in person. Most people just don't bother to check facts that confirm what they already thought to be true, and it's easy to see how one could get the impression that there is accuraccy in such claims.


You're trying to hold a debate to prove or disprove the existence of a God? You do know that this is literally impossible? Well, theoretically, it'd be possible to prove the existence of a God, but literally impossible to disprove.


So do religious people, given that they know full well that God gave them free will to choose whether or not to f* things up. Since the beginning, God made it clear that we would have freedom of action, and that those actions would have real consequences.


I don't see how my personal choice to kill or not kill innocent people should affect your opinion on God.


Answer it anyway: because he chose to be. That should be obvious. Because one is a free thinker doesn't actually mean that one should constantly go against whatever standards there exist. My being a free thinker, hopefully like yours, does not make me any more likely to start robbing old ladies in the street.


But of course. If one doesn't believe that there's any higher power than himself making it clear what is right and wrong, what is to stop one from taking Social Darwinism, of sorts, all the way, putting themselves first, constantly taking advantage of others? There's no God to tell us that killing children still in the womb is wrong? Good! It's easier to just kill them, anyway!


Maybe you should ask the Nazis why they killed a quarter of the Catholic Clergy in Poland?

So you need someone to tell you constantly to behave like a little child needs a father? You need the fear from a stick to not to be "naughty"???

pathetic

...and so distrustful of your inner strengths and weak.


Yeah...what a wonder...all good christians them....the army marching you over wore proudly "god with us" on their belt buckles!

All good christians....believing they did the right thing and would reap the reward afterwards, their cleric told them so!

Hitler and Pope Pius...my looks 'old Adolf nice and shiny at this great moment!

I need to know what exactly "naughty" is, if I'm not going to be it. And you surely don't think I'd take it from you? What gives you the right to tell me what "naughty" is? As I see it, the only person that has the authority to tell me how to behave is God, and his representatives. All you other people, it's none of your business and I do what I please. Clear off.

Alternatively, I could make up my own version of what's naughty and not, but I don't think that you people would all like it quite so much as I would.


Who killed 25% of the Catholic Clergy in Poland. Yep. I'd call them hypocrites. And more.

I disagree, I think being born where and when you were born has everything got to do with your religion.


I like you too, I am Sorry, I did not mean to insult you.
I just wanted to put things in context.


Of course not, does it not make you wonder, where was the Christian God before Christ and Judaism?.



So did your father feel more comfortable thinking there may not be a God?, could he do whatever he wanted?.
My point is not believing in God does not make someone less moral or less of a good person.


Why?.


From your statements, I find it necessary to state the obvious.


You fear God.
The fact that there is no life after death, means to me that, this life is way too important, we just get one shot, no redemption, we have to try our best the first time.


No I am not, I am an Atheist.
Can you disprove that there is a spaghetti monster? No but it still does not make it true.


What beginning?.
Humans, as we know them today, appeared about 195,000 years ago, God did not tell them anything.


it doesn't, even if you don't do anything.
Proof would make affect my opinion.


It is obvious he was not going to believe in Zues.


No, but it does mean to question them all.


That depends on what you mean by a higher power?.
A consious supernatural force that created all of this but left no proof of his existance and punishes us for not believing, then no.
But I never said there were no higher powers.


Again a typical accusation from a religious person.
Being an atheist does not mean you want abortion.
I would personally prefer my "religious" classes in school to be exchanged for educating kids on life.

So...you are hearing voices???


Christians did it...and yup, I would call them hypocrites too! :)

But if it's a solace to you Christians killed half of my people during the thirty years war (also Christians), so I'm not especially surprised...


Exactly...being born in...say...a 'stan we would have not much choice other than to become moslems for example.
We would probably now discuss the sures of the Koran! :)

I did not insinuate that it does. I merely showed an example of how much more convenience-oriented an atheistic lifestyle can be than a religious one.


Reading texts. Much as I am with you currently.


Yes. And after questioning, one can also agree with them. Torq's being a Catholic in a Catholic majority therefore does not have to be at all related to his ability to think for himself.


No, and as such I do not offer arguments about his first or last recorded appearance.

Interesting map about "irreligion" (what a word)

Poland really sticks out in Europe: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligionist

:)

Well, it's hard for me to argue if you say that you know that better
about my religion than I do myself.


The only thing that I believe is that God was/is/will be (in our time-related terms).
As I said before, the questions "where" and "when" He was make very little sense
(to put it mildly).

I think that you are trying to ask why did God chose to reveal himself in the particular
place and time in history (in human history, because, talking about God in terms of
time doesn't make much sense as he is eternal, beyond time and space).
Well, I don't know why He chose that particular moment. Maybe there was something
about the people he chose that made them worthy of His revelation? I don't know.
You should ask some priest about such complicated theological issue.


Geez, I don't know. Why don't you come to Ustka and ask my old man yourself?


Of course not. I never said it does. You're arguing with yourself here, Sean.
Similarly, the sole fact of believing in God doesn't automatically make someone
a moral and good person.


Well, that's how you look at it because you're a decent fellow. However, if you were
not so decent you might think that you can do anything that isn't forbidden by the
civil law of the country you live in (or even some things that are forbidden, as long
as you get get away with it) and you will never have to answer for it.


Yes, He did. I don't feel like explaining all the theology connected to natural law
and stuff (and I'm probably not best qualified to do that) but if you PM me your
address I will send you a copy of "Mere Christianity" audiobook, in which the question
of pagans long time before Christ is thoroughly explained.

Those who do not believe in an 'afterlife' won't get one. Those who do believe in 'something' beyond this existence will get one. How do I know? Heh,heh,heh,......

All true but remember before you get too aggravated...it is The New York Post. It has a trashy reputation anyway. The editors probably allowed it to stir controversy. It's that kind of paper.

I can't speak for Torq's religion (he does a good job of that himself) but you sure don't understand mine. Judaism is all about taking full responsibility for one's actions.


Exactly. "Fear of heaven" is a major concept that helps guide moral judgement of humans.
The Jewish religion is not meant to provide Jews with a "comfortable" life. It's meant to fulfil a relationship with G-d. That includes the burden of judging yourself by G-d's rules.


You can't prove or disprove the existence of G-d scientifically but to me the idea that the world just happened arbitrarily with no creator is more absurd than saying that the Mona Lisa wasn't painted by Da Vinci but just happened when some paint spilled on a canvas.

Christians have abortions every day.


This is an interesting avenue.
Which texts are you reading, in which language are you reading them, where do they come from and who compiled them?.
A rough answer will do.


I agree but it is likely that Torq would be a Catholic.



Torq, are you suggesting that you are a Catholic and that has nothing to do with Poland?.
What religion would you have been before Christ?.
What religion would you have probably been if you were born in a country where the majority (90% in this case) were of a different religion, still Catholic?.

You claim that being recently brought up in Poland had nothing to do with you being Catholic, I disagree, it is probably that you are Catholic.


I am actually saying he never revealed himself because there was/is and will be nothing to reveal.


My point was, I doubt if your father, because of his agnosticism, flung caution to the wind and did whatever he wanted.
Although Ustka looks interesting :)


The same argument could be used about religion and going to confession and absolving your sins or just asking God for forgiveness and going off and doing the the same or similar things again.

A lesser person than your good self, could twist the religion to suit himself.


People who believed in Zues and Thor are also considered Pagans, they are to my knowledge not similar to the Christian God.
I will PM you all the same.


Who said anything about "arbitrarily"?.
There is nothing arbitrary about evolution.

it's as absurd as the claim that the creator was not created by anybody or anything yet it/her/she allegedly exists.

And btw. the world didn't just happen. It took much longer than 6 days for it to be the way it is now. And the process if not even complete.

Of all the millions of possible mutations that can occur at any moment in millions of species, the series of mutations that survived lead to a human who calls himself SeanBM and writes messages on the Internet, itself invented by humans who came from that same series of impossibly lucky mutations. Sean, you are the proof that G-d is the creator, you atheist you.

I disagree with this.
You obviously do not understand Evolution, it was not a throw of the dice and WHAM! here you are.
Are you serious, do I have to explain Evolution to you?.
This argument is not even close to the truth.
Does Judaism not except the theory of evolution which is backed up by millions of pieces of evidence?.
I fear you are lacking in education and that these are your own misconceptions?.

Maybe it's the hunger. Today is a fast day for Jews, marking the destruction of the first and second temples – the last one in the year 70. We've been doing this every year since then. No eating or drinking for 25 hours. Who said being religious is easy.

In short, if evolution is not arbitrary, then where did the rules come from that guide it? Where did the laws of biology, physics, and mathematics come from? Were they self-created?

Gotta go rest now. I'll see you answer later.

What you see today is a tiny fraction of all the failed evolutionary life forms, we (animals and plants) that exist today have adapted.
Or did your God just make millions of mistakes?.

I am surprised at you yehudi, maybe it is the fasting.
Fasting is a good exercise to be done.

Exactly. Another good comparison is that of an astronomer Fred Hoyle who estimates
that the possibility of life forming "by chance" is equivalent to Boeing 707 airplane being
assembled by a whirlwind passing through a junkyard.


Hopefully Jewish. If not then I would like to be a good pagan following the natural law.


Yes, Sean - you made it quite clear to us that you're an atheist.


That's not absurd at all - read some works of St. Thomas Aquinas on the issue of God
being eternal and not created. Anyway, Darek, I can argue about God with an Irishmen
(SeanBM) or with a German (BB) but you are Polish man! Did you forget that Saint Virgin
Mary is the Queen of Poland? Behave yourself! ;)

Wow!, really, you guys don't understand evolution?.
Even the Catholic church has excepted it Torq.
Wow, this really puts into perspective who I am talking to.
So how old is the Earth lads?, were dinosour bones put there to test your faith?.
Ah, come on now, youz are pulling my leg, no?.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

For the evolution to be arbitrary it would have to ahve a purpose. It does not. It just happens for no purpose or goal.


In science, notably in mathematics arbitrary mean simply "any".


I am familiar with the concepts of Thomism and some seem attractive at first but they get weak under closer scrutiny. Time have changed since he was alive and a few things (not all of them yet) can be explained in a rational way.

Religion and science don't mix, and if you ask Catholic scientists (including top scientific brass at the Vatican) about the scientific value of the Bible they will laugh at you.

(btw, the Roman Catholic church accepts the evolution and RC universities teach the evolution, the author of the Big Bang theory was a Catholic bishop)


That would require Hoyle to know every single last bit of tiniest detail of life and the universe, the knowledge that is attributed only to that god is alleged to have.

Oh, and Hoyle would have to know every single bit of the tiniest screw, wire and connector that is a part of Boeing 707. Without that absolute knowledge his comparison is just a poetic line that proves nothing.

Catholic church said that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine
of faith and I agree with it.

From your own link, Sean:

Fly an infinite number of whirlwinds through an infinite number of junkyards and that is precisely what will happen. Given that the universe is infinite, somewhere out there precisely what you stated has happened.


No, the people who believe that dinosour bones put there to test one's faith were put there to test my faith.

Really? Who was that Catholic bishop? That's the first time I hear about it.

Any links?

Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître

That quote there, was before your reply and i gave you that link so you would see it for yourself.

I am glad you read it all the same even if you are insinuating somthing else about what I said.


That made me laugh.

ok, I got the "bishop" part a little off. He was a monsignor
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

But you see, according to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted
15 billion years ago in an explosion called the 'Big Bang' and has been expanding ever
since, so it's neither infinite nor eternal - it is only 15 billion years old and has limits.

Unlike God, who is eternal and not created, which is only common sense considering
that it was Him who created the universe :)


I don't understand what seems to be the problem, Sean - I quoted one sentence from
your post and the rest from the link you posted, that's all.