New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more

Interesting, never heard about that book. So, what do you think about Hirsch's standpoint (taken from wikipedia)? I'm curious, really.

"Außerdem kritisiert sie die mangelnde Bereitschaft, sich z. B. mit polnischen Verbrechen an Deutschen oder polnischem Antisemitismus auseinanderzusetzen: „Polen stellt sich der Vergangenheit […] kaum, […] im öffentlichen Bewußtsein existiert die nationale Geschichte selektiv als Tradition heroisierender Mythenbilder“, so Hirsch 1996."


Again: I disagree with Lotnik767 who said that there "never were Polish death camps". For a dead inmate it doesn't make a difference if he died in a death camp or in a labour camp. They may carry different names, but because the outcome is the same (except for the death rate) both camps are literally death camps.

I meant using Nazi with the name of the camp without the name Poland. Calling them Polish is very recent. Before they were always refered to as Nazi camps.

Just saw two sentences in your posts that must 've been added afterwards:



What can I say? It's beyond me how one can see the killing of thousands as a wonderful "achievement".

And another one:


Definitions of Holocaust:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll

You see, it is an example of your ignorance... :-)

Do you read any books at all? :):):):)


I provided you the German link to Hirsch, but I am not so proficient. Can you translate it for us, please? And don`t forget the year of Hirsch saying it. :):):):)


Then we have a major disagreement. I can see you are stuck in your denial despite the facts and it seems I am wasting my time.


Because the fact that it was just a few thousand instead of millions is a wonderful achievement and shows how merciful Poles were towards Germans after what they had lived through under German occupation.

Some were not merciful, though, I admit, especially those who had lost their families in the Holocaust, e.g., Salomon Morel, the Polish Jew who commanded one of the camps. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel

You are running a very poor discussion. You are looking hard for arguments and thesis, but the result is tragic.

I am Polish and we have never really used the term Holocaust for the ethnic Polish nation, it is used only in reference to Polish Jews.

That is why supporting your stand with such sentences from Wiki as: Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups, including ethnic Poles, the Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, people with disabilities, gay men, and political and religious opponents.[4] By this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims is between 11 million and 17 million people.

is a major blunder and still proves your extreme historical ignorance.

Go back to books and come back in 6 months, OK? :):):)

Dirty little secret? You think Poland is trying to supress information about Soviet NKVD run, Stalinist camps set up after the war to mainly brutalize AK soldiers?

I see for you they are Polish camps, death camps no less. You are full of deception.


Here you go again. Shocking ignorance. Polish politicians tell us what to believe? About Stalinist camps?

The aggressive and rude way you're talking to me shows me just how willing you are to have a decent conversation and how serious I can take you.


See above


I can try (my German is quite rusty) - maybe later today.


Sorry to say this, but could it be that you are the stereotypical Pole so many foreigners on PF are laughing about? Unable to accept opposing views, always in denial and constantly blaming others.


Says the guy who cannot control his anger... :-)


You were the one calling me ignorant because I supposedly did not know the definition of Holocaust, remember? I showed you various other definitions of that term, so what's your problem? Can you imagine that there is a world outside of Poland which might have a different view on things?



As I said: there's a world outside of Poland. Get used to it.

wrong

there were no gas chambers or simmilar there

the deaths that took place there where because of: poor conditions, poor nutrition or bestiality of the staff - the case of £ambinowice is quite telling - after it turned out what was taking place there the command has been replaced

anyway the subject is of course a bit more complicated but I don't believe there has been any planned genocide taking place

What would you call this?

"Often entire German villages were deported to such concentration camps" and "inmates were systematically maltreated and tortured" (Wikipedia quotes).

Killing thousands of people accidentally or on purpose?

So, were those camps death camps in the sense that the death of their inmates was accepted by both the camp commanders and their superiors, the Polish politicians, or were they just holiday camps were some people accidentally caught a flu and died?

I never claimed that there was a planned genocide or that those camps were Nazi-style death camps with gas chambers. What I am saying is that in the end those camps served the same purpose: namely, to get rid of a certain part of society while accepting its death through torture and starvation.

This whole (and sometimes unpleasant) discussion is about the definition of the term "death camp". Pawian and others talk about Nazi extermination camps when they use the term "death camp". I use a different definition,

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=death%20camp

and that's causing all this confusion and fuss here.

I am very aggressive, especially when Niemcy mnie biją. :):):):):):):):):):):):)


Why don`t you answer the question??? :):):):)


Really? :):):):) You asked me what I thought about the German text...... Didn`t you know what you were talking about???? :):):):)


:):):):):) Yes, I am a stereotypical Pole who is known in the forum for denial and blaming others. :):):):)


What anger??? That I called your opinion silly??? It is not anger..... just a neutral truthful statement. :):):):):)


You showed me nothing. You just provided a link, that`s all. I had to find out myself what you meant.


I realise there is a world outside Poland. But I don`t understand what you want to achieve by lying about Polish "death camps" against historical facts. And you call it a different view on things??? :):):):):)

Result: I still consider you ignorant. :):):):):)


Get used to the fact that your opinion on Polish "death camps" is just silly.

PS. I can see I am wasting my time with you but the laughter you provide me is worth staying here longer. Thanks. :):):):):):)

pawian

Exactly the reaction I was expecting from you... <vbg>

Why are you so scornful about Poles and their ability to carry things out efficiently? The death toll was never higher than 20% in camps for Germans. It is a very poor result for a "death camp", don`t you think? :):):) Compared to 100% in German death camps.....



But you aren`t an expecting mother?? :):):):)

Not even the Germans managed 100%! Although they did manage to get to 99.9996% in one camp. And half of the suvivors of that camp got killed by Polish anti-semites within a year of the end of the war.

pawian

We are talking about killing innocent people, Pawian. It doesn't matter if the death rate is 20% or 100%. Are the animals who "only" killed 20% of the inmates less guilty than the ones that killed 100%? Killing a few thousand is the same "wonderful achievement" (using your words) as killing a million in my eyes.


Not that I know of, but my beer belly suggests otherwise... ;-)

OK, I understand your view but disagree with it. Poles didn`t run death camps for Germans, there was no order from above to kill all those German and Polish inmates.

Fatalities which happened there were a result of personal hatred and negligence of camp commanders and guards which was quite natural in view of the genocidal crimes committed by Germans in occupied Poland before.

But any Polish crimes need thorough discussion, of course, and Polish criminals should have been punished. We must respect all innocent victims despite their nationality.


I am so sorry.

And we all admire german efficiency.What a fraud.

We will never find out, that's for sure.


I find it very hard to believe that these commanders acted on their own and were able to commit the atrocities without their superiors knowing about it and at least quietly agreeing to it. Also, one might justifiably ask why charges against the camp commanders were later dropped and why they were even promoted afterwards.

Poland was turning into a stalinist country, stalinist functionaries were too valuable to the system to be dropped, let alone sueing for their crimes. They were going to commit more crimes on Polish anti-communist patriots in late 1940s and 50s.

The communist system imposed on Poland and its crimes were a result of the war started by Germans in 1939.

Sueing started in 1990s, when Poland regained independence. However, by then most stalinist prosecutors and torturers had either died naturally or emigrated to other countries which refused their extradiction, e.g., Great Britain and Israel.

I agree, although you cannot seriously blame the crimes of the Polish communists on the Germans.


Then a controlled (i.e. ordered by high-ranking members of the Polish communists or by the Soviets) "final solution" for the remaining German population - be it ethnic cleansing or killing in concentration camps - would be even more plausible.

Well, but that's only an assumption of course.

So what prevented them from carrying it out, genius? Did they find Jesus?

You mean expell all the Germans from the 'recovered territories'?


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't almost all the ethnic Germans expelled from the 'recovered territories'?

And you would call it "the Final Solution." Figured you'd show up.

No. I'd call it 'the Frankfurt plan', in the same way as the 'Lublin plan'. The final solution would obviously be to kill them all. Just moving them across the map a bit was only going to be a temporary solution, as Germans are demonstrating now.


It's actually a reappearance, isn't it? Or did you not notice my posts on the first page of this thread?

No, you're easy to miss.

So you agree this TheOther is just throwing crap hoping some of it sticks. "Death camps," "Poland's dirty secret," "the final solution," "killing in concentration camps,"of course as part of the final solution.

Or did they finally sent you help?

He is very much just throwing crap.


Telling lies about the past does not help Poland to deal with its past and move forwards. It doesn't matter whether those lies are saying that Poland ran death camps or that Poland never ran any concentration camps, the effect of the lie is the same.

Everyone ran concentration camps in WW2.US kept there their japanese citizens for example.

Leaving aside the debate about whether the US camps were internment camps or concentration camps (if they were concentration camps, Bereza Kartuska most certainly was a concentration camp!), what is the excuse for Polish concentration camps not being finally shut until 1956?

Stalinism, ever heard about it?

Stalin, ever heard of him dying in 1953?

And thus with Stalin's death communism ended in Poland and democracy flurished, right? And you want to know why a UB camp continued to operate? Take your friend with you.

Anyway, so do you think these 'mistakes' in the papers are unintentional or deliberate?

So true.
I guess what we should understand here is the Germans built their death camps first and started killing non-Germans there, only to PREVENT Polish death camps for the Germans to be built.

Poland almost did that! Almost, that's why it still reminds her 'dirty secret'...