Osiol, you're not wrong in what you say. However, the Budenz theory of the Finno-Ugritic/Turkic connection is still a considerable ways from an immutable fact, I should caution you!
Furthermore, my comments were not with reference to the mode of living within the two societies, as much as the tenuous, if though provable, link between the two groups.
We are also taking about only linguistic affinity, hardly mutual intelligibility. LOL An Estonian, for example, and a Finn can understand one another's language a bit, if both are spoken slowly enough for careful comprehension. Same with Russian and Ukrainian, Spanish and Portuguese etc.. Hungarians and Finns CANNOT understand each other, nor can Hungarians and Turks or Turks with Finns.
Hungarians share certain ethno-linguistic traits with Estonians, Finns and various extant Siberian peoples, i.e. Khanti and Mansi.
When I visitied Hungary, I didnt see any connections with Estonian or Finnish culture there. Hungarians culture is totally different from Finnish or Estonian. This is probably sounds stupid nationalism or something but I have to say Finns have retained the most of their "Uralicness" of all these not only genes (the "asiatic" N-haplotype is most common here, compared R1b of Hungary) but also in culture, for example national epic Kalevala (in the Estonian Kalevipoeg, the German writer threw in giant-tales of Norse mythology that dont belong there), there isnt such in Hungary. But the funny thing is that Kalevala was made of tales that were still told in Russian part of Karelia that was never part Finland nor Sweden.Russian rule was in that sense better than Swedish rule.
For me Hungary is a Central European country,where they just speak totally different language than their neighbors.
The Turkish connection though is problematic
it sure is, but I think there has been rise in popularity of pan-turanism in Hungary since fall of communism. Pan-turanism vs. pan-slavism, a bit of overlap in territories ;)
Here are some simlar words in Turkish and Hungarian.
First, look at this sentence;
English : There is a very small apple in my pocket. Turkish : Cebimde cok küçük elma var. Hungarian : Djemben sok kicsi alma van.
Not only words but also the word order is similar.
In Turkish an Hungarian some very commonly used words in daily life are almost same like, I, he/she, come, reach, drink, brave, sea etc.
Turkish English Hungarian English ------- -------------- ----------- çal steal csal cheat çarp hit csap hit çat fit together csat buckle dol get filled tel fill, full dür fold tür fold em suck emlö tit, nipple er reach e'r reach eş dig a'sh dig gel come jer, gyer come git go gyi go [for horses] iç drink isz drink kar mix kavar, kever stir kız grow hot tu"z fire (noun & vb. root) öl die öl kill say count sza'm number (noun) sek skip szök skip, jump tut hold tart hold yoğur knead gyür knead, squeeze sayı number sza'm number bıçak knife bicska folding knife ek sow eke plough kechi goat kecske she-goat arpa barley a'rpa oats elma apple alma apple töre custom törve'ny law yas (3) mourning gya'sz mourning batur (4) brave ba'tor brave ben I en I sen you te te o he/she ö he/she kul aşı gulaş arslan lion oraslan lion çok very sok very küçük small kiçik small
arık > arok balta > balta bitik > betU buGday > buza burçak > borso buzağı > borju dana > tino deniz > tenger deve > teve dingil > tengely erdem > erdem es (us) > esz göbek > köldök ikiz > iker kapI > kapu kepenek > köpönyeg koçan > kocsany kurum > korom Odh (zaman) > idO oğlak > ollo Öküz > Ökör sakal > szakal sarı > sarga saz (Camur) > sar sırt > szirt sirke > serke tanık > tanu tarla > tarlo tekne > teknö yaka > nyak yapağI > gyapju yel > szel yüksük > gyüszü
Rock, I'm surely not denying linguistic evidence which is already quite familiar to me. However, there are notable examples in many 'unrelated' languages such as Albanian, Hungarian and English, for example, which look superfically like, are even pronounced almost the same way as, yet are "false cousins", if you will, with their counterpart lookalikes, take 'yu' (Eng. 'you') in Albanian or 'haz' (Eng. 'house') in Hungarian. The first especially is, sonically, a dead ringer for the English, yet is of a completely different origin, but happens to sound the same.
Allright, Chomsky, Whorf, Sapir and others will proudly state that there's no such thing as true coincidence in language, granted. In common parlance however, we may safely say that 'yu' and 'you' only appear to be related.
When speaking about Polish and Russian, clearly the relationship is more than superficial. LOL
But, history supports Turkish-Hungarian similarities as both nations lived together in todays Chuvash republic, Baskhurdistan and Tataristan before 900 A.D. I am sure you know these nations are all Turkic.
The second clue is before Magyars Avars and Huns were living in Hungary who are Turkic tribes.
Turks and Magyars mixed both in todays Russia and Hungary.
The third clue but the weakest one is Turkish rule of 150 years in Hungary in 16th-17th century.
Now, I don't know if there is any relation between English and Albanian in the history ? But, I think not. So you may call it coincidence.
Turks and Magyars are not brothers maybe but you may call cousins.
One example from similar words was ''sea'' . In Turkish ''deniz'' and in Hungarian ''tenger''. But we know that in ancient Turkish the word was ''tengiz'' which turned to be deniz. So, this shows the relationship of Turks and Magyars are very old.
Well, I think it's necessary to make some corrections. Yes, hungarians have some connection with siberians. Tungas and some Samoyeds. For example, healer, its the same word in hungarian and tunga (saman).
Hungarians, had mixed with slavic and germanic people, that's why the face, body, eyes, and many other features, from the ancient people, were lost. Hungarians, by nature, it's a people who always gave a piece of earth from those requested it. And remember we're talking of centuries of mixing, wars, invasions, exodus, and many others. It's a chalenge to find a pure race among the people over there. I chalenge anyone. Even the Maltese, islanders, were mixed.
Hungarian is more related to the vogul languages, rather than ostiac languages. Hungarian and finnish have the same semantic for sentence construcutions, and the simmilaities end here. About the simmilarities between turk and hungarian, I think, it's more appropriate to say what's the older language, and then say, what language it's similar to what. Hungarian is the oldest, from these 2. How said before, turk it's a concept, from chinese people, not a race or ethnicity.
In terms of dressing folklore, bulgarians are very close to hungarians. Same style.
How I told before, one of the theories, says, poles, descends from kipchaqs (there was a invasion of these people from the step, after the khazar empire). Since hungarians are people descend from people of the step, I think right to assure poles and hungarians have the same dna. It's named "shine factor".
The people that's close to hungarians in terms of ethnicity, probably are the khazares only. Quite distant... Hungarians formed the one third of the khazar empire, and later the old great bulgarian empire.
And don't forget the baskires from Spain-France. They were people from step also. They're like martians, in Europe, probably more than hungarians.
Guys I like to read a lot, and there're many books, that point this facts: Khazars, the 13rd tribe, from Arthur Koestler; Attila and nomad hordes, from David Nicolle, there is a rare book, that can be found at amazon (lucky me own a copy of this) named Hungary at Early Arpads, from Kosztolnyik; Barbarian Invasions in Europe, from Bury, and Dead Man Eaters, from Michael Crichton (there's movie also, with Antonio Banderas - it's about the foundation of Kiev by the Vikings). In fact, I think the origin of these tribes and people are fascinanting. My retirement project, for the future, it's write a book about ancient history from 1000 BC to 1000 DC.
The book from Nicolle, clarifies, there were several invasions. Huns were the first, followed by the Onogurs, then Pechenegs (who gradually merged with other peoples icluding Torks and Kipchaqs), and finally the mongols. The latest always pushing the previous. That's the reason, the avars for example moved from the black sea, to the actual Bavaria. The region of Ucraine is righ, and very ffertile for agriculture, it was a region, naturally desired for colonozations, from the people of the step. The puszta..... I believe, one probable names from Buda-Pest, specially Pest, comes from Puszta. Buda, probaly from Bleda, Attila's brother. These were the greatest invasions, of course I do not teach intent music for violinist, but I do my particular researches, and I can scratch a while.
Well, and if you want to know a curiosity (and this is a fact): There was a great civilization in south Mexico named Mayans. They discovered the Zero concept, developed calendars, and conquered many other tribes in Central America. They are considered the Greeks from America.
Well the curiosity now: The ideograms from these people, is very similar to an ancient chinese writing. In fact, There's a book named "Mayan book of deads", from Paul Arnold, that makes the analogy in the end. It's all there. Well, if mayans could write chinese, thousands years ago, why poles and hungarians could not share the same DNA? Why turks could not got hungarians (onogurians) words? I say, a person from Italy, can make a trip by feet and walk to China if wants it. Marco Polo made it several times, using the silk road. Eurasia it's one continent only, the mixing of ethnicities is unavoidable. Exception to the chinese and their great wall.
I didn't mean turks did not ruled half Europe, I just said, chinese people developed a concept named Torok, to specifiy a certain type of people, it's a concept of generalization, of certain races, despite they are one or more people. I think more simple, say the Torok People is by definition "foreigners who nomad people", for example. If, later this people ruled half Europe, in a organized way, it's other point.
Turk, chuvash, khazar, all then have the same origin. All these people were from the west and central Asia. The megyer tribe who formed later the magyar, and the onoguria federation, they were from the north of Asia.
There's a weather theory, that says, at certain times, the arctic circle forms a so brutal cold, that pushes animals and men to the south to more apropriate lands. That's the reason megyers, were agregated by the huns and later the khazars. After centuries, looks natural to me, megyers words and "turk" words were exchanged between then, don't you think? I mean, even in this Forum, like here, I see people saying brasilian words. I think it's natural.
And honestly, let's take a look, Probably the english will dominate, in some decades. The british and americans, made a good job.
have a nice day! David
Hello Marek and Constantinek.
I prefer Cardoso. Hes a techar from Sorbonne, speaks 4 languages perfectly. Lula can not speak portuguese right. He never was in a high school. Sad but true.
Yes, our prince is named Attila. And for your suprise the first king of Portugal was a hungarian prince. It's normal, all the kings from Europe are relatives. Hungary had a Poland King also, I think Laszlo (Ladislau) Second or Third, I don't remember. My surname was gaven by this Pole King. I'm not sure, but I believe Szilagyi comes from Szlachta. I have to investigate more later.
MMA, wow, I think you mean brazilian jiu-jitsu. Well it's good. But I think the Capoeira is more finest and cool !!
Poles and Hungarians support each other for centuries. The swedish invasion, one duke of Szekely served the Pole King. In 1956, Poland supported Hungary in the russian invasion. In Early Arpads Dinasty, If I remeber as well, Galizia, were from Hungary. Later became Poland. I think it's fair.
In 1848, Hungarian, became an independent Kingdon, from the Austrian-Hungarian empire, for general information.
The relationship between the Czechs-Poles-Hungarians, I think it's clear. These three countries, were against the "mother" Russia. Poland first, Hungary Second, and Czechs the latest. The famous Prague's Springer. Beautiful story.
Turk, chuvash, khazar, all then have the same origin. All these people were from the west and central Asia. The megyer tribe who formed later the magyar, and the onoguria federation, they were from the north of Asia.
David,
When I visited Budapest, I bought a book '' A brief History of Hungary '' from History Museum.
The first paragragh of the book is;
The language of the Hungarians was basically Finno-Ugric. But while their ethnic relatives withdrew to the northern taiga with its bears and reindeer, the Hungarians-or rather the Proto-Hungarians-remained within one of the main waves, and, coming into the warlike company of the mounted peoples of the steps, moved ever westwards. In the meantime they came into contact with Turkic peoples, amongst others, and became mixed with them.
Anyway, the important thing is what you feel yourself. If you say as a Magyar I have no ethnic relation with Turks, I feel myself close to slavic and germanic people it is ok.
Well, I'm making a lot of research, because i have this project, write about the collapse of Rome until the 1000BC, in Europe. One special and interesting subject, is the formation of all these people (onogures, bolgars, toroks), is a grey part of history. I think the basis of interpretation is the foundation of a empire by the akatzires, from the remaining of the Attilas hunnic empire.
To make more clear, the proto-turk, was probably the language from khazars. What happened in this case, is that a third part of the khazar empire name "patria onoguria" (in turkish: onoguria, means 10 arrows, but the right translation should be 10 tribes), then hungary, were forced to speak the official language of the empire. In Kosztolnyik book, in fact is accepeted the people under Arpad rule, were bilingual, megyer (the biggest tribe from the 10 tribes) and turkish speakers. Well, it's necessary just a few decades, for a bilingual people, assimilate terms from each other, and any other aspects, like the religion, costumns, myths and folklore. That's probably why hungarian and turkish languages share same roots.
What I mean, is proto-turkish language was the oficial language for centuries in Khazaria. Of course afterall, there is also the history from the turks (the turkish people, that invaded the hungarian kingdon, but was in total different age). I met several turks in Budapest, and liked specially one who made a excelent food, he owns a restaurant there. In my last days over there, was the place used to eat every day. I have a special interest on then based on a book from Gurdjieff, who treats the circles dances from turks. Fascinating. And went to turk bath also, very cool.
I see you like to read, if so, buy the book from Arthur Koestler, named Kazars, the 13rd tribe. Is very clarifier.
Possibly, there's a natural confusion about the "torok" concept, from the times of the khazar empire (at this time, yes, I completely agree with you, about the relationship between the onogurs and the toroks), what in terms of time, hapenned between the collapse of the hunnic empire, crossing the khazar empire, to the beginning of the russian empire, and the turkish people (who appears centuries later) who assumed a modified torok language, and of course a recognized different ethnicity. See, toroks have something in commom with onogurs, but turkish hardly could have something in common with hungarians, with exception of some words. Onogurs-Toroks were splited in the end of the khazar empire, divided by space (geographicly) and time (centuries), becoming the Turkish and hungarians. However this can be controversal since Hungary had Sultans, and turkish should be talked between hungarians in middle ages.
Well, I think it's my last message over here. For those who are interested to share ideas, and theories, please send me an email at luiz.david1@yahoo.br.
my best regards, Luiz David Szilagyi
PS. I could not avoid to mention here, march, 23, it's date where the polish people and hungarians comemorate their friendship. The date is valid in both countries. In the city of Gyor, in Hungary, there is a Mark, where the date is remembered.
yes, just don`t forget that `szabli` (sablja) is Serbian word, same as Visegrad (Vishegrad).... and same as King Matijas himself, Hunyadi Janos (Sibinjanin Janko) and Petefi Sandor (Aleksandar Petrovic), ... who were of Serbian origin and same as Hussar (Gusar) concept began in Serbia, not in Hungary and same as Vatzi street in center of Budapest was in fact Ratzy (Serbian) street formed by Serbian traders, etc, etc...
Then, explain to Poles why Hungary promote German interests in the region (Balkan).
Bok! Oprostite Gospodin Crow: the same assertment is made by romanians regarding Hunyadi János that he was of romanian origin. Both are wrong: he was catholic and of cumanian origin. Cumanians are of turkic origin. The name forms Sibinjanin Janko, Szibinyáni Jankó, Szebeni Jankó means John from Szeben. Szeben is a saxon town in south-estern Transylvania. His actual name Hunyadi János comes from the family estate of Hunyad, Transylvania.
Regarding father of Petőfi Sándor, his father was not ortodox but lutheran and regarded himself Hungarian and could speak only Hungarian, Petőfi's mother was Slovak. Even Petőfi's father was a Hungarian of Slovak origin. For God sake Serbs are not Lutherans!
The Serb origin of Petőfi is a legend!
Then, explain to Poles why Hungary promote German interests in the region (Balkan).
U èemu je problem? We promote interest which are common to Hungarians and Germans and not only. Here I could mention the Croation - Hungarian friendship, interests and also we can enlarge the circle with Albanians and Bulgarians :D
Crow. Let me tell you something. Hungarians are NOT slavs. I always have to smile when I see people saying that the DNA bla, bla, bla. Seriously, after a 1000 years of living side by side and interbreeding it would be strange if there would be no slavic DNA in the hungarians. If you wanna really know than they have scythian (or sumerian if you wanna go further back in time) origins. The language which has the most grammatic similarities with the hungarian is the sumerian... "Hungarians are Slavs by origin. That is well known historic fact."? Of which history? You mean the same history, which says that the hungarians and the finns are brothers?
Marek. "the Hungarians are both ethnically as well as linguistically more Western than Eastern..."? You can't be serious. Linguistically? Tell me. Do you know anything about the hungarian language? There is no european language like the hungarian. It has nothing common with any of the languages in europe. Except the few words we share with other languages, ofcourse. But that's only natural after living so long side by side. The finns and the hungarians have about 600 common words (and the official european history says that we are "brothers"). Well, that's not to much for a language with more than 1.000.000 words...
Hungarians realy are Slavs by origin. They were influenced by foreigners but they are Slavs in origin. But, what are they now- you should ask them. Lithuanians, Lethonians and Estonians are Slavs by origin, too.
Same goes for Austrians and eastern Germans. You can say almost same for Romanians but, ancient Slavs of today`s Romanian territories were exposed to enormous onslought and Romans imported a lot of non-Slavs as settlers after those onsloughts.
Albanians aren`t Slavs by origin but they assimilated a lot of Slavs. Greaks, too.
Petőfi Sándor
real name of Petőfi was Alexandar Petrovic and he was son of Serbian Orthodox priest and his mother was Slovak woman
Petrovic (hungarized- Petőfi Sándor) died as enemy of Hapsburgs during Hungarian revolution in Austro-Hungaria
Here I could mention the Croation - Hungarian friendship
ha, ha, ha. What a fu**** BS, Croation - Hungarian friendship??? i mean, yes, in loyalty to Germany
Croation - Hungarian services to Germany are famous here in the region
BUT, if Hungary eventualy tries to play more independant role and oppose to German schemes, Croats are there to punish and bucher them.
Zoltan, why don`t you say a few words about Croat massacres on Hungarians during Hungarian revolution in 19 century? Croats, as loyal Austro-German servants gave pain to you.
your goulash is among the tastiest of soups and is to be envied. I absolutely love Hungary, even though the people there sometimes seem strangly uncommuinicative...
real name of Petőfi was Alexandar Petrovic and he was son of Serbian Orthodox priest and his mother was Slovak woman
Petrovic (hungarized- Petőfi Sándor) died as enemy of Hapsburgs during Hungarian revolution in Austro-Hungaria
You are mad Crow and you are inventing ********. Petőfi's father was of Lutheran religion and was no priest at all (neither orthodox one). He was a simple Hungarian innkeeper whose forefathers were Slovaks. The Serbian origin of Petőfi is a myth, for facts he was of Slovak origin. Tell me gospodin Crow how and when can a Serb be a protestant of Lutheran faith? I tell you: when hell freezes over. Petőfi born in Kiskőrös (Kereša in croation) was baptized in his father's faith: Lutheran, in the latin register of births he was introduced as Alexander Petrovics.
You dumb Crow you don't even know where is Kiskőrös,and you have not learnt anything about Petőfi yet you express yourself on him.
Crow I see your blind purpose is too search Serbs. From the time of revolution in which Petőfi took part I have for you Damjanich János who was indeed of Serbian origin and orthodox.
Crow I see your blind purpose is too search Serbs. From the time of revolution in which Petőfi took part I have for you Damjanich János who was indeed of Serbian origin and orthodox.
i know, i know for a Damjanich. Poor soul. Serbs called him - `fury snake, the traitor of the Serbs`. Well, maybe Serbs were too hard on him because historicaly he is considered to be controversal figure
Serbs were definitely object of hungarization. Death of archduke ruined Hungarian plans to hungarize many more Serbs. Sorry Huns, life is cruel
Slavija shall prevail!
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