UK, Ireland / Do all Polish newcomers to the UK speak some English? [14]

I used to teach English in Poland - for years. Most schools, colleges, and all universities offer English courses, plus there's lots of private schools on top of that.

Surprisingly enough, now in London I work as a community interpreter, and most of the people I assist are young, or very young (early twenties, barely out of school), and they have either very little English or no English at all.

This really baffles me.
The only explanation I can think of is that I come across people who:
a) were extremely lazy at school or
b) had the bad luck to have German/French/Russian but no English teacher or
c) were and are totally indifferent to the fact that English is the official language of the UK, so they did not even bother to learn a bit before coming over, or

d) all of the above.
I might sound jaded, but I must say I am really shocked by the fact that these people are unable to answer the simplest yes/no questions or even give their own age or address. I really wonder what schools they attended...

This coupled with the fact that I spent about 10 years trying to encourage students to use the language - not just solve tests and learn rules by heart, but actually speak and write - and the general reaction was "come on, give us a break, who needs this silliness?"

And here they are now.
End of rant.

Life / Why do poles drink & drive? [82]


So do you suggest that Poland was communist before WW2? A very novel point of view, if I may say so.

As for Polish driving and Polish drink-driving: road accidents happen a lot in Poland because of the many narrow, potholed roads still around, and because a lot of country dwellers insist on walking / cycling down motorways dressed in black, gray, and other dark colours just as dusk is falling. I have personally missed a few by virtually centimeters. It's no fun! Plus, as in every country, young people get high on alcohol and drugs, and then proceed to drive their friends home from night clubs or parties.

Polish drink-driving in the UK: as someone mentioned above, when you go abroad, you don't really feel that this new country is "for real" - because your home country is the only real one, right? You would especially tend to feel this way if your education wasn't the greatest, and let's face it - lots of immigrants come from a working-class background. Thus, you tend to disregard the rules, firstly because they are written in a language you don't bother to understand, and secondly because you are "abroad" - i.e., in never-never land. You came here for the freedom of not being recognized, for the money and the irresponsibility (as opposed to being a REAL citizen back home). I think this attitude is sh*t but I know quite a lot of people who actually feel this way.

On the other hand, this is not a typically Polish thing, as most people tend to fall for this fallacy (like the British chav who gratified himself in a public fountain in Bratislava some time ago - no way he'd have done that in his home town, or at least I hope so). Generally speaking, unless you are a seasoned and sensitive traveller, living abroad will always be associated with having less overall responsibility, not more.

Travel / My opinion on Gdansk and Poland after 11 days [45]


No. I do not care, or know, who lives there. I only speak about my impressions. I have seen the market (smelt it, too - more's the pity!), I have seen the dilapidated, partially torn down and/or burnt out houses, the ingrained dirt, and I must say that to me, it almost seems like occupied territory, or a war zone. I live farther to the east (Waltham Forest), and though that area is relatively poor and run down as well, it does not have that peculiar atmosphere of despair that Dalston has for me.

Maybe not all of Dalston is like that. But that's what I see as I pass through.

Travel / My opinion on Gdansk and Poland after 11 days [45]


Of course I don't live there. I do use the Silverlink once in a while, though. And yes, I've seen that "great" market. I didn't want to bring it up, but as you mention it... one of the filthiest places I've ever visited. Don't get me started on that one. And Dalston strikes me as particularly depressing because it sits practically next door to the City. Somehow that contrast just gets to me. Dunno.

Life / Surviving the Polish Winter [27]


We seem to be straying further and further from the point here. If there is a point. I just felt like stating that names of institutions are just that, names, and cannot reflect any imagined or real national characteristics such as obsession with the weather etc.

Lots of really important and serious institutions in Britain are called Office.
Lots of really important and serious institutions in Poland are called Instytut.
Just a different tradition.
On a related note, I think both the British and Polish are obsessed with the weather. It's always too wet / hot / cold / whatever. And everyone's always genuinely surprised when it snows in December. ;-)

Life / Surviving the Polish Winter [27]


Isn't that just a question of terminology? Come on, you're not seriously telling us that The Home Office is called that because it is deemed to be less than a Ministry? Hey? ;-)

Travel / My opinion on Gdansk and Poland after 11 days [45]


Well, come and visit Dalston (London). I have never, ever seen such abject poverty, dirt, and hopelessness, so much grime and ugliness packed into one place. And you bet it's dangerous.

Language / Giving directions in Polish [51]


morèe (Czech) :-)

News / European Commision vs. Poland on the construction of the motorway [11]

Poland has its polluted bits but overall I'd say it's clean and actually getting cleaner as a lot of old-style communist heavy industry had been dismantled. Which means less jobs but more fresh air.

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]


??!?!? Czechs deny their slavonic origin? Can you give me a quote on this, please? And how does geographical location within Europe change ethnicity?


How terribly decent of them!

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]


And you are being childishly spiteful as usual!

News / Air Raid Sirens today at 12 noon in Poland?? [15]


How about the outbreak of WW2?

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]


I am half-Czech and have been called a Polonophobe on this forum before, so I should be beside myself with glee upon reading this, right? Well, not exactly. As I know both countries equally well, I can see strengths and weaknesses in both. And I strongly dislike such sweeping generalisations, as they are patronising and uninformed. If you wish to prove your point to me nevertheless, I would be most obliged for examples - specific examples.


Let me stand this statement on its head: I never knew that England shared any significant history with Europe at all ;-)
We were always just "the continent" to you anyway.

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]


I am sorry, but your theory is rather silly.
"Complication" or "simplicity" of a language (as perceived by you) would be a sign of civilizational advancement related to contacts with the West as opposed to the primitive, rough East. Am I right?

1) Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia are not eastern Europe. They are central Europe. Check your map, please.
2) The older the language, the simpler it tends to get. Look at English. Its early forms were a nightmare complete with 4 forms of irregular verbs, inflections and what have you. The relative complication of Slavonic languages stems from the fact that they are a bit younger than English, in other words, they had split from their joint Old Church Slavonic stem about 500 years later than Anglian or Anglo-Saxon had from whatever it was that Germanic tribes used to speak before they spread around Europe.

3) Russian is not a primitive language. Quite the contrary. I spent 4 years of primary school and 4 years of secondary school learning it and had a very strict teacher. The best I ever got was a B.

4) Please do realize that central and eastern Europe was not a barren desert of cultural and linguistic desolation even under the communists. We share our history and culture with you and it is extremely humiliating to be treated like a weird species of subhumans aspiring to the unattainable golden West. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Was he half-Lithuanian though? I'm not that sure at all. I though he was Polish, possibly with a Jewish mother, and born and bred in the now legendary Kresy Wschodnie. Who was Lithuanian and who Polish there? Who could really tell? My grandfather couldn't, at any rate...

That aside, if someone cries passionately: "O Lithuania, my homeland!", it's pretty obvious what their ties with the invoked country are. Even if they are not Lithuanian by birth, they obviously feel as if they were. Do I have to study Mickiewicz beforehand to get that meaning?

Language / On nakłada spodnie. Is it correct Polish? [23]

Google the phrases:

włożyć spodnie
nałożyć spodnie
założyć spodnie

You can use all three interchangeably. So Polish isn't that tough in this particular instance ;-)

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

But hey, we're not really talking vacuums here, are we? We have all received some sort of an education, so 'America' is not a totally empty concept. Having even the sketchiest idea about the US is OK when you want to read Whitman for pleasure.

I actually think it works this way - you start reading Whitman, it's fun but there are things you are not clear about, so you start looking for explanations, and that increases your awareness etc. As opposed to educating oneself beforehand about Whitman, his era, the life and times, and then filtering his poetry through all that cumbersome knowledge.

And you can easily substitute "language learning" for "reading Whitman", and "reading literature" for "increasing your awareness".

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]


You are right, of course. Generally speaking. On the other hand, there are authors in every country who "age" badly. This is because they were more or less mediocre even in their era. As time passes, whatever they wrote about loses its immediate appeal, and what begins to stand out is their shabby style, or poor descriptive skills, or whatever. This is why Walt Whitman, Dickens, Shakespeare, or the anonymous Anglo-Saxon poets shall never fade, but lots of other American and English authors disappear into oblivion within a hundred years or so. This is the point I'm trying to make. Eliza Orzeszkowa wrote correct 19th century prose. Nothing more. Her subject matter and style can be of interest to someone deeply in love with 19th century Poland and/or Europe, but I daresay she would not move the lay contemporary reader very much. Take Alfred Tennyson, for example - the Poet Laureate. How many people today would say they truly enjoy his poetry? Most find it tedious and overly ornamental. I like him though because I am quite interested in Victorian times, and I understand the whole backdrop to his writing. On the other hand, to enjoy Whitman you do not need to know anything much about America, as his truly adventurous attitude to language and poetic diction carries most of the weight! :-)

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]


You don't want to understand, do you? ;-)
Orzeszkowa is dated while Krasiński (Nie-boska komedia), an earlier writer, is most definitely not. Orzeszkowa was never that brilliant a writer to start with, and her language as we say in Polish "trąci myszką" - has become old-fashioned, quaint. She is no longer any fun to read, plus, if you learn to express yourself like her, you will sound like someone out of the mid-nineteenth century. Nobody wants that, I suppose. If you want a woman writer more or less from that era, try Nałkowska. You'll see the difference. Or Gojawiczyńska. These two are first half of the 20th century and make for an enjoyable read any day.

Kosiński, Kapuściński - yeah, you could call them "contemporary" in a very broad sense of the word. But still they are old news, so to speak ;-)

My criterion was the age of 40 or less. Can you rise to the challenge? ;-)))


I wouldn't recommend using children's books to teach anybody but yourself! ;-)
Especially in a formal course of training specialized handbooks should be used as a matter of course.
I just wanted to say that if you have an 'adult' Polish study book, and you combine that with children's literature of any level to kick-start the reading comprehension part, you can't really go wrong :-) I re-read most of my childhood books when my children were growing up and it's actually fun to go back, so despite everyhing you might find yourself happy to revisit classics like The Children of Bullerbyn Village by Astrid Lindgren or Andersen's fairytales, this time in Polish :-)

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Well, that's a lot to ask as I have no idea what your level is ;-)
But I would definitely recommend starting out with classic children's stories. Preferably translated from English, or with an English version to hand - like Pinocchio. I think it's a very good idea to read a chapter in English, so as to understand what's going on, and then turn to the Polish and fight your way through. I did that with Italian, a long long time ago... I could actually read and understand Italian back then, those were the days! ;-)

But I digress. If your Polish is still rather wobbly, it might actually be a good idea to borrow some primary school Polish study books, which contain so called "czytanki", as they are written in simple, clear, and unambiguous Polish. I know they might seem childish and boring due to the subject matter, on the other hand, they are usually accompanied by grammar exercises and reading comprehension questions, and last but not least - you might get quite a few glimpses of the Polish way of life through them.

Once you have a rather-more-than-basic grasp of the grammar, you might want to try Miron Białoszewski's prose, as he wrote in very simple, unadorned Polish, but his subject matter is rather fascinating. Try "Pamiętnik z Powstania Warszawskiego" (Memories from the Warsaw Uprising). Of the younger generation, there is Olga Tokarczuk (didn't like her too much), Jacek Dehnel is an up-and-coming name, but I've only read his poetry so far. There is also Dorota Masłowska, who experiments with language more or less successfully ("Wojna polsko-ruska pod flagą biało-czerwoną", "Paw królowej"). I generally know a lot more about contemporary poetry in Poland than prose. And I wouldn't say reading poetry is that difficult.

Either way, if I were you, I'd start with children's stories. Been there, done that, and it works :-)

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

How about contemporary literature? Orzeszkowa is ancient by now, her Polish has dated rather badly, and Różewicz and Andrzejewski are authors from the mid-twentieth century... How about some really fresh blood? Since you think a sound knowledge of literature is so important to the foreign language student, can you name at least two young Polish writers who are popular right now? And I mean young! (Under or about 40) ;-) And what have you read from them? Did you like it or not?

UK, Ireland / Polish Childrens contribution in education in Slough - the positives [7]


If you don't work hard, you don't learn. On the other hand,
you cannot teach if the student is not willing to learn, i.e., work hard.
'nuff said.

Travel / Bydgoszcz - Poland's Great Secret [30]

well, almost any Polish town would beat £ódź, sorry to burst your bubble here... ;-)

UK, Ireland / Why do Poles come to England? [514]


So it's bad of me to feel sad and upset about Polish people saying and writing very negative and sarcastic things about their homeland?

I don't at all mind Poles going to whatever country they wish, and living or working there. But I do feel offended when they arrive and immediately start criticising Poland and whining about how terrible it is there, while at the same time

1) not learning any English and relying on free interpreters provided for them by the British taxpayer, showing no interest in the British way of life, history, culture,

2) going back to Poland for any major operation or dental treatment (a bit inconsistent with remarks about 'terrible Poland', isn't it?) and, simultaneously
3) making snide remarks about the UK and it 'dumb' inhabitants (that's where my remark about being full of themselves kicks in).

I just wish Poles would be able to go abroad, live and work there, and yet remember where they came from, and take pride in it. I wish they realized that Poland is a big country located smack in the middle of Europe and with lots of achievements to its name, no better but definitely not worse than any other European country. Yeah, that's just about it.

If you still don't understand, it's probably because as Puzzler said I'm a Polish half-caste who shouldn't be allowed out of her cage. ;-p

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]


That's how children learn their first language :-)
Of course the deeper you go, the more you immerse yourself in the culture (literature, history etc) of a country, the better your overall command of a language will be. Nevertheless, an interest in literature is not a prerequisite for acquiring foreign language skills. Just sayin'.

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]


Lots of people who are native speakers of English know very little about English literature. Lots of people who are native speakers of German know very little about German literature. Lots of people... you get my drift. Not everyone even likes literature. But this does not mean they cannot speak a given language, I hope?

Travel / Tatry Mountains Poland / First Snow [29]

I don't know if it's feasible for you, but you could try the villages above Zakopane - I can vouch for beautiful views and an abundance of beds, as górale are a very business-minded folk and know a tourist opportunity when they see one ;-)

But again there might not be that many young people and the associated fun and games.
Either way, take care in the Tatras because they are called "the pocket mountains" as they cover such a small area, but the changes in weather can be very extreme, even in summer! I'm talking blue-sky-and-sunshine-to-hailstorm-within-half-an-hour changes here.

Life / Polish PAYG sim/Network [24]

I would personally recommend either Orange or Heyah as far as sims go. As far as I know, Heyah has the most hassle-free package with the simplest rules. And low prices. But that is just what I heard from others, I've been a Pop pay as you go customer in Idea (now Orange) all my life :-)

UK, Ireland / Why do Poles come to England? [514]


I am sorry, but I really do not understand the above sentence.

UK, Ireland / Why do Poles come to England? [514]


Wow! That's a lot of attention, thank you! I would never have expected my two or three sentences to become the reason for such a huge rant!

I think you should read what I wrote with a little less bias. If you wish to see Pole-bashing, or Poland-bashing, it is enough to turn to Polish forums such as Londynek.net, or to the comments sections under most articles about the UK on onet.pl and onet.eu.

You can also have a look at blogs written by Poles living in the UK.
It makes me sick, it makes me mad, it makes me sad - the prevalent opinions of "we're never going back to that Polish dump, Poland is a madhouse, Polish people are stupid and ugly, we as a nation will never catch up" etc.

As you asked - I know Poles don't usually speak English, because I interpret for them. I also taught English in Poland, university level, and my students weren't terribly keen on studying it.

Actually my dear Puzzler, you have gotten me all wrong: Poland is my country and I am going back there as soon as I can.

I would have preferred to come to England when I was still a student, but unfortunately at that point in time I did not have the money. So I decided to visit when I could. And no, I am not a kitchen porter trying to feel better about myself.

If you want to hate me, feel free to do so. It's your life.