Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Magda,
True enough. Indeed, "vacuum" was just my word choice. I simply meant that appreciating the aesthetics of language/literature is limited if operating in isolation, i.e. blissful ignorance, of the context, historical or otherwise, within which the literature was conceived.

Take Mickiewicz. The opening lines of PAN TADEUSZ "Litwo, Ojczyno moja!..." may sound beautiful, but without knowing in advance that, in fact, the poet was actually a half-Lithuanian by birth, the listener as well as the reader misses the overall meaning of the lines, in the end, that which endows them with their beauty!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Serwus, Magdo!

Zupelnie zgadzam sie z Toba w tej sytuacji w zwiazku z "przestarzalymi" autorami, n.pr. Orzeszkowa itd.
It's quite true that certain writers age badly. I would add though, that in order to have the kind of language command that, say, you apparently have, in English, for instance, requires a depth of vocabulary at one's finger tips, so to speak, which can only be gleaned from going "beneath the tip of the iceberg", as it were, and ingesting older as well as more contemporary literature.

In brief, slang without standard, is like the flesh of a human body without a skeleton as its foundation!
Marek

Magda,
About Whitman, I'm not sure I agree here. Language is a product of culture. Culture is a product, i.e. bi-product, of its history. Therefore, listening to Whitman without understanding in general what was behind those beautiful words, is like enjoying an aesthetic experience in a vacuum. It is namely incomplete! Can we understand, e.g. Mickiewicz without understanding Polish history, regardless of how lovely/powerful the poetic diction may be?

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Magda,
Generational categories are not always barometers for taste or cultural acumen. Indeed, Orzeszkowa is "quaint" insofar as perhaps contemporary Germans might find Fontane slightly old-fashioned prose, or Americans Walt Whitman, for example.

I haven't read as much Polish as I have German, English or other continental literature to judge the accuracy of your assertions, therefore, i shall have to take your word for it!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Hiya there, 'ol Magda, 'ol girl!

Orzeszkowa dated????!! I suppose Shakespeare, Dante (oops, he's Italian sorry about that), Milton, Dickens etc.. are "dated"? Hmmm, what qualifies "ancient" status here... very interesting.

Is it the age or the quality that counts? The Tatry mountains are probably thousands of years older than any man, but does that make them any less pleasurable??

I guess I can't quite follow the logic.

Marek

PS
Recently, some Polish friends were aguing about their country and the lack of patriotism they perceive. During the conversation, in Polish naturally, one said "Jeszcze Polska nie zginela!" Had I not known your national anthem, I couldn't have caught the gist!!

I've read Jerzy Kozinski, Ryszard Kapuczynski and several other "contemporary" Polish authors in the original. -:) Most enjoyable.
Marek

Serwus, Magda!

Znam "czytankow". Oni nazywaja sie "Lesebuecher" po niemiecku.
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Sofi,

Absolutely correct! It limits and dilutes their impressions of the new language. If people at least admitted their lack of familiarity with literature as preventing a deeper and more rewarding, i.e. accurate, level of understanding,....no problem.

To say though, "Oh, come on Marek! I've never read Twain, Hemingway etc.. and I understand EVRYTHING!" is plain false. This becomes most apparent when an educated native speaker of a language uses a pithy, elegant phrase from a play, poem or novel to highlight a point and the other person, the foreigner, is left annoyed and clueless!

Whose fault is that? I't not the native speaker's job to "dumb down" their level of language for non-natives who haven't taken the time or love to really absorb the target culture!!

Marek

Recently. I was conversing with a German colleague. At first, we began (of course!) in German. Later, at her insistance, I switched to English, just to be social. So far so good. I proceeded, drawing upon famous American expressions, i.e. "until you see the whites of their eyes." etc., quotes familiar to the average educated US-native speaker, to stress what I was trying to say. My colleague then proceeded to say, my quote was incorrect English, and that it should be "by the time you see the whites in their eyes" which is of course nonsense. Firstly, it's not the original quote, secondly, here's another instance of a foreigner pretending to know more about English than an educated native speaker, instead of freely admitting, "Say, Marek. Ya know, I'm not sure I know what you mean!"

And such happens with dramatic regularity.

Marek

Bookratt,

My advice to you is to start with simple short stories, preferrably from the modern era, e.g. Orzeszkowa, Rozewicz, Andrzejewski etc. just to get your feet wet. Poetry can be immensely difficult and frustrating, even in one's native language. Therefore, I would avoid it if I can.

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Grzegorz.

Bylem zly, bo jak umiesz znac jezyka, bez kultury w tej ten jezyk mowiony?
How can you claim to know a language without knowing the literature in which that language is written?

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Magda,
Presumably, she was a generalist ( The Catholic University of Lublin), her university is considered the best in Poland (she said so herself!) and so I can only attribute her educational lapse to plain ignorance!

"Dumb linguist"??--:) Are you "sparing" with me again Magdo, or kidding as per usual?

Marek

Chwileczke! Nie, ona nie studiowala matymatyke, lecz rolnictwo, przepraszam!

That makes a big difference, agriculture or mathematics. Know what the difference is here in the States? About $50, 000.00 bucks!! he-he!

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Puzzler,

For instance, a younger Pole, approximately 25, remarked recently (apparently keen on practicing his English, and he needed to, believe me!!) "Hey, I just got buzzed, ya know?", to which I politely responded in English, although Polish would have been easier, just to humor him now, "Oh, drinking too much?" To which he insisted (explitives deleted@$#^##&!!! etc.), "buzzed" means to have gotten a haircut. "You mean 'clipped', I believe!" He refused to accept it.

A Pole once asked if the US has great authors, like Mickiewicz and Slowacki in Poland. I replied, "Mamy poetów, n.pr. Dunbara, Whitmana, Emilii Dickensona itd.." She, a university student, claimed to have heard of none of them.

I rest my case!
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Serwus, Magda!
No, tylko trzy lata temu a jednak juz umiesz taki idiomatycznie po angielsku, ale bez "akcentu obcego" w twoim pisanym jezyku angielskim??!! Takze masz humor naszego jezyka. Jestes Jozefa Konradem, poniewaz on byl Polakiem, ktory lepiej pisal po angielsku niz po swoim jezyku ojcowym. Ale jego imienie bylo "Jozef"!

Jestem zdumiony.
Zostawimy w kontaktu

Wszystkiego najlepszego!
Marek

By the by, Magda. Mark Twain once remarked in "Straszny jezyk niemiecki" (Die schreckliche deutsche Sprache - The Awful German Language) that he'd rather decline two drinks than one German adjective, apropos:

Meine schoenen neuen Schuhe (Moje piekne nowe buty) etc.

Marek (To be continued, I'm sure)

Language / Double negative in Polish language [24]

Osiól,
Also possible is "Nigdy nie widzialem.."= I've never seen/I never saw. (literally: "Never not seen..")

Powodzenia!
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

".......much less..."= nie mniejszy...
You may have misunderstood the typical English-language turn of phrase "much less" in my post, apologies.
I simply meant, that we come to love the depth, certainly not any less, the beautiful sound of Polish, distinctive in it's consonant clusters as compared, say, with Italian, Finnish, Hawaian, where the vocalic is far more apparent to the ear than often in Polish, German or indeed, Czech.

I see you're a translator as well. From Polish to English, English to Polish or both? I'm a German to English/English-German translator and interpreter, but I know Polish fluently (though not always "accurately").

Czy jestes Polka? Czytalem, ze mieszkasz w Anglii, ale nie wiedzialem, czy jestes z Polski.
Pozdrawiam!

Marek

Language / [Phrase of the Day]: English to Polish [37]

"Ktora godzina?"jest najlepszy i najlatwiej!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

....because, Osiol, a higher standard is attached to Polish, not to English.
I find this a great pity, since this simply devalues the level of English.

Poles who learn English shold learn to appreciate the greatness of the language, say, Gilbert & Sullivan, much as we who learn Polish should learn to love its melodic and consonant-heavy literature, much less, the clangour of Iwaszkiewicz, Tuwim and other!

Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

EXACTLY!! Tyczkowaty's saying what I/we've/ been saying all along: perfective vs. imperfective is expressed by the presence or absence of a certain prefix, e.g. "po-", "prze-", "z-" etc.

Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Touché, Danny-me Boy!! -:)
Well, once a grump (speaking about myself, of course!), always a grump.

Marek

You did indeed, Michal. Onset of senility on my end.
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

"Sluchac" is merely the infinitive form, "slucham" is the first person singular for "I'm listening."or "I listen", since in English we represent changes in time through tenses, Polish, through aspects.

"Slucham!" is also a way to answer the phone in Polish, meaning "I'm hearing/listening to/you.."

Marek

Dannyboy,

Indeed it was "humorous", in a purely sophomoric way. -:)
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Dannyboy!
Don't wish to appear rude, but the borsht (sorry, proper Polish "barszczt..")-belt humor is rather out of place, plus, your remarks essentially teach us nothing.

Guess I seem the proverbial sour-pickle puss, but, the last part particularly rubbed me the wrong way.

Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Then the title of the post is misleading!
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Yes, but the title of the original post was "What is the difference between prosze and poprosze?", which is what I attempted to elucidate!

Apologies for the confusion.
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

? Then perhaps I, silly Yank that I am, failed to understand the answer. Did you in fact have time to assimilate the information in my initial post on this query?

Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Nie wiem, Michalku. Prosze mi powiedziec! -:)
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Michal,
......Neither would I (and never have), as I said, only "Prosze o chleb, piwo.itd..."

Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

"Prosic"/"poprosic" is sort of like "rozumiec" (to understand) vs. "zrozumiec". The latter form is perfective, the former, imperfective. When, for example, we say "Prosze!" or better still "Prosze o cos!", e.g. to the server in a restaurant, it means something we do all the time, namely, requesting something. The sentence though beginning "Czy moge uprzejmie poprosic, gdy.. (not: "prosic")....." would mean that the request is just this one specific time, not general, i.e. imperfective.

Same with: "Czy rozumiesz po polsku?" = Do you (in general) understand Polish? vs. "Czy zrozumiesz moje pytanie?" = Do you (right now) understand my question?

Marek

Language / Speaking to people in Poland: Formal or Informal [3]

W jezyku polskim jest jezykem niemieckim w Austrii bardzo podobne, n pr. "Grüss Gott, Herr Direktor Wenninger, Hob' i di Ehre!" (Pochywalony, Panie Direktorze Wenninger! "Hob i die Ehre"! nie umie tlumaczony)

The Austrians, much like the modern Poles, lay considerable emphasis on polite phrases in order to express rank and title.
Marek

Language / Some example sentences using each of the cases in Polish [33]

"Narzednik" = instrumental case, much as the Polish word meaning "tool", i.e. "instrument"!
Marek

Language / Parents Swearing in Polish - doesn't make any sense!! [11]

Typical "older" curses: (...which literally translated, sound weird!)

Psiakrew!! = Blast!, Sonnnofab_ _ _ _ h! ("dog's blood")
Cholera! = Dammit! ("cholera")
Psiakrew bydlo! = Same as "psiakrew" ("dog's blood", "cattle")

Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

If you're English, how did you learn Polish? Did you learn llike the rest of us, in our own country before going to Poland, some Polish-speaking area etc., or did you learn fresh upon arriving in the country?

Jestem ciekawy!
Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

Unikpoland,

I'm confused. Are you a Pole by birth, a Brit, or neither of the above?
Marek

Temper, temper boys!
"Jeszcze glupstwo nie zginelo." he-he -:)

Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

Michal,

Tak, dlaczego nie masz zainteresowania, czytac polska literature w jezyku polskim? Staraj sie!
Marek

Language / Some example sentences using each of the cases in Polish [33]

At least I was correct about the first one!
(Small consolation, I realize)

Marek