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Posts by NieMota  

Joined: 9 Apr 2008 / Male ♂
Last Post: 21 Apr 2008
Threads: -
Posts: Total: 30 / In This Archive: 28
From: Poland Malopolskie
Speaks Polish?: tak
Interests: electronics, scripting

Displayed posts: 28
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21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

All I can say it good luck with your teaching career. You'll need it.

I don't care about my teaching career.
I wan't just discuss some ideas.

IMO form 'jesteśmy' is redundant/too specialized at beginner stage.
If someone has very strong ability to learn all specialized forms than he hasn't any problems at learning.

If someone is unable to correct use all of them, than should reduce them to absolute minimum IMHO.
So some old forms and rules are very useful for that goal.

How beginner will know 'my jesteście' or "wy jesteśmy" are prohibited combinations ?

If he knows entities "myśmy" and "wyście" and knows there no more valid plural entities, than in natural way he will know than ending "ście" implicating pronoun "wy" and vice-versa.

That way will able to create right forms sooner or later, without excessive stress.

If some entities exist than student need some additional rules to rule out prohibited combinations.

If you don't need to combine two kind of entities because they can be substituted by one kind entities than you cannot combine and don't need additional rules.

The entity existence is the main and only rule.
What exist is allowed and what don't exist is disallowed.

When studen become familiar with these simple rules than become ready to learn more new entities and more rules needed for fluent communication skills.

That is the reason why entities as 'tyś', 'myśmy' etc are more important than other IMHO.
They are very usefull for describing some very basic rules.

Stop put in my mouth that i want to teach many extra useless forms and ruless at once.
I suggest quite opposite action - reduce entities (forms) and rules to absolute minimum even if some rules and forms must be obsoleted.

Along the learning process they could be succesfully replaced by modern forms and rules.
The entities or rules total quantity is not the main obstacle. The main obstacle is how many new entities and rules student must deal with at once IMHO.

if you ask me, using these archaic forms to make Polish beginners remember the endings of verbs is totally confusing.

No i don't ask you.
And i'm not going to do that in the future.

You know why.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

but NieMota is suggesting the opposite, to bombard a non Polish speaker with some useless old Polish knowledge, before he can even conjugate the very basic verbs in the present tense.

4 simple rules don't able to bombard anyone or i'm wrong ?

Those rules are very helpful in conjugation process,
so why not start from them ?

Why do you state it is useless knowledge ?

Is really 'my' fit to something else then "śmy" ?

After all, if you're so insist then just for 1st person, plural we should mention:my jestesmymy sąmy sommy (no verb)

No, no, anyway

for 1st person, plural we should mention:

1 my jesteśmy or just 'jesteśmy' because ending 'śmy' implicate pronoun 'my'
as 'my' fitting to 'śmy' only.

2 myśmy są

'my som' coming from cripled 'myśmy są'

my (no verb)

The my idea is: if you know form 'myśmy' and basic form 'jest' then you are able to construct the right form 'jest+e+śmy'.

You don't need remember form 'jesteśmy' at beginner stage.
Student's ability to create right forms will be growing along learning process.

Heck, why stop there. Proto Indo European might be useful too. And then, after 16 months of study we will be ready to learn 6 forms of the word "być" in one tense and fully understand where they come from. Except that why would a foreigner care if he is not a student of linguistics.

Some forms are more useful than other.
If you know form 'my' and 'myśmy' and you know 'myśmy'='my+śmy'
and know than ending 'śmy' you can fit to many verbs then you will easy recognize what mean verb with ending 'śmy' if you find one.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

these archaic forms you're trying to launch into everyday language are completely useless for the present tense (with the exception of the verb "być"), they could be used in the past tense, but it's impossible to say:jam czyta / myje siętyś czyta / myje sięmyśmy czytają / myją sięwyście czatają / myją się

No , i'm not trying to launch that into everyday use !
For learning purposes only !

If the student knows 'wyście' then he/she get in easy way the right form which need.

czytają => wyście =>(wy+ście)=> wy czyta+cie =wy czytacie
/ myją się (wy+ście)=> wy myj+(ą=>e)+cie się =wy myjecie się

That way beginner could start to understand some basic rules.

If beginner forget the right form and is unable create them than he/she still could speak in "emergency mode" 'wyście się myją' or 'wyście się myć' or 'wy się myć' and still it is well understandable.

Such "emergency mode" don't create bad habits as long as student knows that is unable to recover (from memory) the right form right now.

That way is able to comunicate at lower stress and as a result more efficiently.
The right endings will coming along with learning process.

Still don't you see what i'm talking about ?
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

But that knowledge, unless you live in places like Manhattan, still won't help you get to the destination.

But Polish grammar is here like the Manhattan - very regular .
We have 4 pronouns and 4 endings whos fit each other and as a result we have still 4 valid combinations only.

Why we should avoid to underline that fact ?

Hidding such very simple and useful rules are very silly IMHO.
It is a straight way to mechanical learning without any rules recognition.

Oh, and btw. I am not English.

I'm sorry you are Canadian as i see.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

the concept of merging the verb form with the pronoun itself would give a learner another headache (added to problems with some Polish sounds, spelling etc. - remember that anything can be difficult when you're a beginner, so you wanted to help, but my guess is you would confuse the poor guy to the power of three).

Why it would confuse ?
There are only 4 new words which in very clear way showing what pronount fit to what ending.

'ja' fit only to 'm' ending = 'jam'
'ty' fit only to 'ś' = 'tyś'
'my' fit only to 'śmy' = 'myśmy'
'wy' fit only to 'ście' = 'wyście'

When he become familiar with these 4 basic rules than other forms could become much easier to recognition and to learn.

These basic rules are valid not only for verb "być" but for many more verbs.

Where is that extra confusion ?
I really don't understand where is it.

Why should student must be keep out far from association than "my" fit to "śmy" only etc ?
Is that association the source of so painful headache ?
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

No. It's plainly silly.

If i should be honest: what is REALLY silly for me - my English friend - is a way to learn adresses as a entity without recognition of the street name and the house number.

It is much easier to know some basic rules that adress contain two kind of info, then learn all different adresses without that knowledge.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

It's like asking for directions in a strange city. You ask how to get to a certain streeet and they tell you that you need to meander through a few dozens of others streets, the names of which are as strange to you as the destination.

It is tottaly inacurate comparision as old forms we talking now describing
correct relations pronoun - ending.
Both are at one place and that way it is very easy to learn these relations.
Student dont must split the verb for the core and ending at that stage.
When will become familiar with these old forms than will be familiar with our contemporary endings as well. Then he/she can start to learn correct form which will not be as strange as could be at the begining - that is my idea.

Is it really obscure ???
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

The beginners can dream whatever they want (even about mastering the language to a proficiency level far better than most native speakers), it doesn't change the fact that it takes years and certain stages can't be jumped over, they will be beginners for quite some time, weeks, but rather months.

I agree. This the source for my admiration of theirs efforts as i'm not language oriented.

But i'm still at point : some older forms are more convenient for beginner for learning purposes only.

IMO old forms as: tyś, jam, wyście, myśmy are very helpful and easy to learn as pronoun and ending is in the same word - this is my point.

When student become familiar with them, so become at point when is ready to learn ours contemporary forms.
Why these older form must be hidden from student ?
They don't bite.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

The reason is the development of the language. Some of those forms, while correct, are not considered standard Polish. "Jam jest" is good for jokes, and it was good for Sienkiewicz's novels describing 17th century Poland, but not for 2007.

But still is good at learning stage IMHO.

It's not just about words but about grammar. If you don't understand 4 forms then the additional 2 won't help, especially if they build on the other 4.

How additional 2 older forms could be builded on 4 newer forms ?

Old form 'jam' 'tyś' are very helpful because they contain pronouns fixed with correct ending, so that way it is more clear for the beginner.

Old forms showing the roots of Polish endings,
so that way they are really helpful.

Why beginner must to learn all contemporary grammar forms at the begin ?
Why he/she cannot start in more easier way ? (less forms - simple rules)

Would you like to explain that ?

IMO it is easier to start learn walk than run the same way as old grammar is easier sometimes than contemporary grammar rules and all different forms related with them.

Our Polish grammar was'nt created at once.
Why they must be teached at once ? ( only contemporary rules and forms)
There is better to start from roots than from fruits, sometimes.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

NieMota, I can see your intentions were pure, but, as you explained a little later, these forms aren't an everyday standard, they sound definitely archaic for 90% of today's population, so it's better to avoid them :)

I cannot agree with you Krzysztof.

Beginner don't need to care about that. He/she must start to care about if he/she will not be a beginner anymore !
She /he don't need to avoid them as long as he/she is a beginner.
There is much more other more importan things to avoid in Polish than archaic forms.
She/he should be aware above, but nothing more IMHO.
When he/she become familiar with ours endings then become to use
correct forms.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

I don't know because, frankly, your English might use some polish.

So I will try to ask you in different way ;)

You said:

I think the beginners should not be overwhelmed with all kinds of obscure grammatical forms,

so my question is: why in your opinion the form 'myśmy są' is more obscure then 'my jesteśmy' ?
Or why 'myśmy pisali' is more obscure then 'my pisaliśmy' ?
'jam pisał, jam pisała' = ' ja pisałem, ja pisałam'
'tyś pisał, tyś pisała' = ' ty pisałeś, ja pisałaś'

on the left side : jam, tyś, pisał, pisała = 4 new words
on the right side : ja, ty, pisałem, pisałam, pisałeś, pisałaś = 6 new words

What is more difficult to learn: 4 new wordds or 6 new words ?
What is more obscure for a beginner ??

Would you like to explain me ?

I'm not a language oriented person or teaching oriented.
I'm just really curious as for me more words and more rules was always more complicated and obscure especially when i was absolute beginner.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

I think you should make clear what "i don't recommend that" refers too. He's a beginner and your explanation is quite messy, I'd say even for some Poles. Also, I think the beginners should not be overwhelmed with all kinds of obscure grammatical forms, that even you consider obsolete. Try to make it nice and to the point.

So lets me explain. IMHO ii is a convenient option for beginner if Polish verb endings are perceived as obstacles.
That way beginner could to use less different verb forms.
But still should be aware it is not the main way we used to speak.

So it is his/her choice is he/she would like to use that option or not.
I don't tell: you must to know that way.

IMHO unawared beginer could be much more overloaded by all these verbs and theirs endings.
Would you like explain what is obscure here, or difficult ?
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

I'm still learning the correct pronoun for one male, two males, a male and a female (same as two males) and one female.

one male, on
two males, oni
a male and a female (same as two males) oni
and one female. ona

and don't forget form for one child: ono
and two females one it is almost English ;)
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

it's in the past tense that the verb changes according to the gender. :)

Yes, it is true but that is for the next lesson ;)
Nie od razu Kraków zbudowano.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

So it is just the single/plural option that changed the form of BYĆ??

I don't know the how it is called in english but we saying person's number.

I = ja = 1 (first) person => jestem
you = ty = 2second person => jesteś
he/she/it = on/ona/ono = 3 (third) person => jest

1 my => jesteśmy
2 wy =>jesteście
3 oni/one =>

So you have 2x3 = 6 options

In Polish is possible link the verb ending to the pronoun and this way you need to use only two forms (one single and one plural)

jam jest = ja jestem
tyś jest = ty jesteś
third person is the same

myśmy są = my jesteśmy
wyście są = wy jesteście
third person is the same one/oni 'są'

but i don't recommend that- it is an old Polish language
but still understandable of course .
You can use that way if you want focus listener's attention.
21 Apr 2008
Language / Czas Teraźniejszy ( Present Tense) [5]

Znam and wiem too are the prsesnt tense but where is all this leading to?

'znam' coś/kogoś mean i'm able to recognize sth or sb
'wiem' mean i have some knowledge

So we can say "znam go" and we cannot say " wiem go" because he is not a form of knowledge - he is a person.

Wiem jak (go) rozpoznać/poznać
Wiem jak (on) wygląda - Such expressions are correct
21 Apr 2008
Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]

??Because Agnieszka is female and singular we use 'jest'??

Never mind the gender - 'jest' is correct for all of them.(female, mare or object ) So: 'jest' = is.
15 Apr 2008
Language / Imperative, prefix, reflexive verbs, imperfect form in Polish - 6 questions [14]

Surely this is what the question was really all about.

Why you want to limit your knowledge ?

Basically the same what you said just now, Krzysztof said before.

2. Is the difference between "iść" and "jechać" "to go" and "to go by__"?"to go" functions in Polish both as iść or jechać, the difference is that we use "iść" when the movement is on foot, "jechać" - by mechanical means. In fixed expressions (like "to go to school/work" "iść/chodzić" is used)

IMO you shuld be aware that "iść" is not limited only to its basic meaning.
If you will to know that, you will not be surprised if when you will find "iść" and the context is ruling out "by foot".
15 Apr 2008
Language / Imperative, prefix, reflexive verbs, imperfect form in Polish - 6 questions [14]

You are right, but basically only.
Do you know this: "iść po rozum do głowy" ?
How do you think: by foot or by an any form of transport ? ;)

We used to say also: "latać/polecieć" or "skoczyć/wyskoczyć" instead of iść.
Look at that:
"pójdę do sklepu" mean very often the same as "wstąpię do sklepu".
The last expression don't specific any form of transport.
13 Apr 2008
Real Estate / Poland top overseas property hotspot [29]

how many people nowadays will actually keep their property for 30-40 yrs - circumstances change and we sell up and move,

To whom you will sell them ?
For how much money ?
Why they will buy ?

Best regards
13 Apr 2008
Real Estate / Poland top overseas property hotspot [29]

appreciation of property can far outstrip inflation, both in the short term and long term... in much of europe... i realise things arent quite the same in america...

Where are you - one year later ???
12 Apr 2008
News / US dollar still falling... Change in Poland? [37]

But like i said I cant travel and posting it is too costly plus customs. I am not a good seller anyway.

If you had a trusty friend in US then you could establish two way trading channel.
So you could source some US parts needed for tuninig to PL and and could resell surplus to niche customers (they could book these parts). At the opposite direction you could send parcels of tuned chinese goods for similar kind of customers in the US.

You could buying parts at wholesale prices level and resell them at decent higher level booked by your customers.
The main obstacle is to establish solid (trusty) 2 way trading chanel to operate at some niche markets at US and PL.
Your customers could be your insurance for exchange rate changes as you would be able to change prices accordingly to current exchange rate level.
As a result you would be a winner at any change plus your money
could work for you in more efficient way.
12 Apr 2008
Work / Job opportunities in Poland for a foreigner? (other than a teacher) [175]

My ulimate goal is to be a nurse, but I havent seen any schools in Poland that focus on that?

It is 'coz nursing isn't a well profitable profession in Poland yet.
As a result they are not widely advertised.
You could found some of them in Poland if you were here (in Poland ) be sure.

12 Apr 2008
News / US dollar still falling... Change in Poland? [37]

If I had changed even year ago I would have made a ton of money..I never thought it would get here

Lets look what the advantages are - related with low exchange ratio - for you.
If you would like to become an importer of some used or new US goods, i could "sell" you some ideas.
It is easier to sell some of them now, as they are more affordable for average Polish.