Language / Poles! How do you cope with English phonetics versus English spelling? [37]


A common occurence in many bilingual situations. It's not clear whether the intent is to make a monolingual (from their point of view) comfortable, pure force of habit or underlining your role as an outsider.

I'd like to go to Malta, but hearing them speak English would just be depressing since Maltese is such an interesting language.

Life / What do Polish people think about Turkey? [52]

Turkish practice of Islam has always tended toward the more moderate and more sensible in the cities at least.
However, Turkey still falls far behind EU standards on freedom of religion and there's no indication that the country as a whole understands the European conception of freedom of religion or would agree to it, if they did.

Among other things it means:

- freedom to convert from any religion to any religion (and back again as many times as a person wants)
- freedom to marry with no regard to religion (for both men and women)
- freedom to proselytize
- freedom to publicly criticize features of another religion
- freedom to insult religion
- freedom to not practice _any_ religion

Even in the current EU it's hard for all member states to fully live up to these ideals and something tells me it will be harder for Turkish people (especially the more rural and/or poor segments of the population).

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Language / Two questions for people who learn polish [57]


Actually, końcówki, from koniec (ni- becomes ń when it's not followed by a vowel).

News / Polish politician thrown off Lufthansa plane. Just enjoy. [60]

There's no contradiction.

Yes, there is widespread anti-Polish prejudice in Germany, including institutional discrimination against the Polish language in flagrant violation of EU laws.

On the other hand, Rokita has long been known as being a high maintenance prima donna who throws shit fits when he doesn't get his way.

Most people I know think his treatment was richly deserved (and a Polish voice can be heard telling him to get off the plane in the recording in question).



my favorite remix, featuring the fractured Polish of his German-Russian wife

News / Polish politician thrown off Lufthansa plane. Just enjoy. [60]

£ATUJCIE MNIE!

Life / Wlatcy Moch?? [14]

Brilliant dialogue with Czesio and his teacher Pani Frał (Miss Frau):

Czesio: ja jej nie lubię (I don't like her)

Pani Frał: dlaczego (why not?)

Czesio: bo ona nie ma wacka (because she doesn't have a willy)

Pani Frał: czego??? (a what???)

Czesio: no ... siusiora ... a Pani ma? (you know ... a peepee .... do you have one?)

Life / Suggestions required for a song that indicates "Poland". [12]

AFAIK there are no relevant songs in English and anything in Polish will be problematic.

Basically there are two warring factions inside most Polish people when it comes to discussing the country with outsiders:
1. a desire to show oneself as being superior to the rabble (manifested in insults toward the country and despair about its future)
2. defensive prickliness and oversensitivity (and a a rush to defend what hasn't been attacked yet)

Also, IME discussing Polish music is a surprisingly stressful thing for Poles to do in front of each other. Everybody's afraid of saying something that could be branded as uncool by the others (and all Polish music is seriously uncool to some part of the public).

Anyway, here's a fragment of my personal favorite song about Poland "na lewo most, na prawo most" (A bridge to the right, a bridge to the left)



In a disco polo mood theres's 'Wszyscy Polacy to jedna rodzina' (All Poles (are one family)).

Love / Whose Life is it? Polish girlfriend under family "house arrest" [224]

Not sure what to think. My first response is that Polish families don't behave like this unless there's something else (fairly serious) going on.


Aha! If this isn't an elaborate smokescreen, then my best guess is there are money issues that you don't know about (she might not know about them either). If I had to make a wild guess it would be that the parents are in debt and/or don't want to lose the money/work sunk into the house. Also, what part of Poland is this? Another wild guess might be that he's a smalltime criminal (or from that kind of family).

In a different direction, I basically know of only a few other kinds of situations where the family will side with the boyfriend against the daughter.

1. they have a kid together that you know nothing about (premarital sex is the norm in Poland, birth control isn't, I wouldn't even rule out the 'boyfriend' being her husband and she was hoping to be able to negotiate a divorce when she went there)

2. she has a history of mental illness (high stigma that never wears off)

3. severe family dysfunction (including physical/emotional abuse)

4. the foreign boyfriend is not white (no delicate way to put it)

Love / Whose Life is it? Polish girlfriend under family "house arrest" [224]

The stigma of mental illness in Poland means

1. The family doesn't want that info to get out of the family, ever, under any circumstances.

2. The family member is still loved, but the rest of the family (especially parents) assume the person is incapable of making their own decisions and makes as many decisions for them as possible.

The threshhold for being regarded as mentally ill is lower in Poland too (in the countryside, people might not distinguish a few sessions with a trained therapist and being committed to an asylum...).

Language / Two questions for people who learn polish [57]

My feelings on reading (in any foreign language)

Start easy. Children's books aren't necessarily easy (IME).

Just remember, there's no shame in dumb, dumb is your best friend and you'll never get to smart and stimulating without spending some time honing your skills on dumb material.

In terms of newspapers, aim low. Find the newspaper that the dumbest people read (that's not an out and out scandal sheet) and just read the headlines everyday until you understand most of them with no help from the dictionary (or grammar book).

Then start with short, short news blurbs. Crime blurbs are good for this. Don't push things and let comprehension come on its own. When the dumb newspaper gets too boring then move up to the next rung on the ladder.

With literature. Again, start off dumb, dumb and dumber. Cheap pulp genre literature is your very best friend. Comic books are good too. What you want in the beginning is something that will be easy because you already know the basic outlines of the story. Romance novels and murder mysteries are the best but westerns and crime novels aren't bad either.

Don't shy away from translated stuff. Many cultures reserve native language literature for smart stuff and outsource the mindless garbage to English speaking countries (which we're very good at producing). But it's the mindless garbage that has the most to teach you in the beginning.

Alternate two separate kinds of reading (in separate sources)

1. skimming, keep reading as fast as you can. Try to figure out words in context but donn't make any special effort to remember them, the motto is: full speed ahead. What you want to do is get to the stage where you can follow the broad outlines of the plot even if you don't understand every word (or sentence or paragraph or page).

2. detailed, obsessive reading where you want to know what every syllable means (random paragraphs one at a time out of order are good for this). A story you've already skimmed all the way through is good for this.

3. reading out loud (with no regard for comprehension). a couple minutes of this four or five times a week will work wonders (no one knows why, but it does).

Also, the specifics of the language (or the people who speak it) may make some aspects of the process more difficult (or easier) than expected. Experiment around and find out what works for you.

Love / Whose Life is it? Polish girlfriend under family "house arrest" [224]

It's not so much mixed as complex. And the sad truth is that many men don't get enough training in deciphering complex communication signals. And most girls aren't interested in men who can't do that.

Often the signal isn't mixed at all, but the intended clear 'no' is softened with some surface politeness that the socially inept interpret as a potential 'yes'.

On the specific Poland-British Isles front, it's important to remember that Poland tends to be a flirting culture. Mostly IME British men aren't very good at distinguishing basic (meaningless) flirtation and real interest (and interpret flirtation as interest when it's not).

Love / Whose Life is it? Polish girlfriend under family "house arrest" [224]

For the most part, male-female relations would not be improved by clear and direction communication. Pleasant fictions keep the world and human race going.

Most women want a partner who's interesting to talk to. Using complex ambiguous communication is a way of separating out the potential partners from the also rans.

Love / Whose Life is it? Polish girlfriend under family "house arrest" [224]

I partly agree with JustyciaS in that her story doesn't add up against the normal way of doing things in Poland (and kind of sounds like the BS a girl might use to break up with an unwanted foreign boyfriend).

I'll just add (again) that there is some chance it adds up but it can only do so in a horrible, horrible way (involving crime and/or severe and dangerous family dysfunction).

At this stage, using her old boyfriend as a smokescreen to dump you is probably the most optimistic option. "Be mean and threaten him so he'll leave us alone!"

At any rate, do NOT go to Poland! Under any circumstances!
You simply don't have the linguistic or cultural or practical knowlege to do so safely.

Even if you make it to her village you'll be helpless in a place where you're illiterate and ignorant of everything going on around you and totally unable to communicate except at the sufferance of others. Read that again a few times and let it sink in.

As a bonus, you have no idea how to recognize dangerous situations in Poland, and the warning signs are not necessarily the same as in other countries.

My advice: If she's telling the truth she'll have to get out of it herself. There's no way you can do anything but make things worse for all concerned.

Love / Whose Life is it? Polish girlfriend under family "house arrest" [224]

I wasn't writing about agressive bums (probably less dangerous in Poland than in many places) but about noticing the little things that mean an environment isn't safe. The kind of thing that Poles (and aware foreigners) take for granted (and IME less aware foreigners are ignorant of).

Also the way verbal warnings (and veiled and unveild threats) are given (and when someone is serious vs bluffing). Again I've known foreigners who completely miss and/or misinterpret communcation that's clear to Poles.

Work / New English 'teacher' in Poland (I have no qualifications). [119]

Non-Polish teachers of English in Poland should know Polish for a number reasons.

The biggest is that without it, they're at the mercy of their employers and colleagues and if they're not working in an all-English school (and most don't) they'll be locked out of what's going on except for whatever their colleagues wish to tell them (which might not be enough).

Also, the question is: If this person can't learn a language then why should I believe they can teach one?

Work / New English 'teacher' in Poland (I have no qualifications). [119]


If living in Poland doesn't motivate a teacher to learn Polish then they suck.

Language / "non polish characters" [19]

My advice is to not worry about the keyboard at this stage. Most of the writing you do should be done by hand (much more effective in learning than typing).

I'm pretty sure that a Polish keyboard should be easy to download, ask your boyfriend what he uses.

hint: avoid 214 and go with the word keyboard layout (where you type alt gr and a letter) it's potentially slower than 214 but for a non-Pole that's not an issue and it integrates better with other keyboards.

alt gr = ą

Work / New English 'teacher' in Poland (I have no qualifications). [119]

If the teacher is living in Poland they have both the time and opportunity.

Now if a teacher comes to Poland knowing ahead of time it's for a limited time I can understand them not learning much but teaching English in Poland is not the most time intensive job on the planet and I've never known a teacher who didn't have enough spare time enough to learn.

Work / New English 'teacher' in Poland (I have no qualifications). [119]


You live at your job? How do you get through the rest of your life in Poland?


This sounds more like a British thing (IME Americans have a much better track record with learning Polish than do Brits). I think it comes from different expectations about social lives, Brits seem to do okay knowing just three people while Americans like to know lots of people (for which you generally need Polish in Poland).


Depnds on how much you need to work and prepare. The teachers I've known with the heaviest work loads did speak Polish.


Do as I say, not as I do?

Work / New English 'teacher' in Poland (I have no qualifications). [119]


Well generally a teacher should know more than the students about the subject being taught.

In a foreign language class part of what's being taught (in a meta context) is how to deal with a foreign language. Having everybody speak your language (while you're in their country) is certainly one way of dealing with it, but probably not one that inspires confidence.

Work / New English 'teacher' in Poland (I have no qualifications). [119]

Let's clarify a bit. My position is that anybody living in Poland needs to learn and speak Polish (during the time they live here) and I'm not terribly interested in excuses about why they don't. There are no good reasons for not learning and "But I'm an _ENGLISH_ teacher!!!!" is among the lamest.

I will mention that (to me) Poland in Polish is approximately 754 times more interesting than Poland in English. But at the end of the day, either you understand the folly of living in a country and not knowing the language (being at the mercy of people's willingness to treat you like a child) or you don't. If you don't, then by all means, have fun and remain ignorant of how you're inconveniencing those around you.

Love / Do Poles ignore domestic abuse? [54]


You want your baby to have contact with an emotionally and physically abusive man?

Really? What about when he starts beating the kid? (and he will, don't lie to yourself that you can stop him).

Work / New English 'teacher' in Poland (I have no qualifications). [119]


A number of years ago I decided the purpose of most monolingual English textbooks isn't to teach at all. The purpose is pathologize the student by diagnosing them ("you're at the upper pre-intermediate level!") and getting them into a graded system where finishing one level doesn't prepare you to do anything but take a course at the next higher level. That is, the purpose is to keep students paying money for as long as possible.

I've yet to find any evidence to make me change my mind.

That said, there are some good Polish-produced textbooks that a student can learn from. But the monolingual books from the UK seem like all filling and no content.

Fortunately I only deal with very advanced uni students (not technically English specialists but close) and can avoid using the mandated textbooks over 90% of the time.


The problem is that the language curriculum in English speaking countries is awful. The traditional grammar model for English is terrible and wrong (since it's based on Latin) and can't be operationalized but for various reasons schools can't use anything else. The last I knew British schools had mostly dropped any mention of grammar for students.

The grammar that ESL students get (when grammar is covered) is far superior to what native speakers get (mostly a bunch of zombie rules that have never been valid).

Also, most everyday explanations that untrained English speakers give are wrong.
The "simple present" is not a present tense at all (it's a habitual and gnomic tense) and the "present continuous" does not necessarily describe something happening now (the single most relevant parameter is 'not over yet').

Life / MEN'S DAY and FEMALE CHAUVINIST SWINE? Situation in Poland. [46]


Uh .... you do realize that All-Poland Youth is a proto-fascist organization, don't you?

And I don't mean that in a general hyperbolic, provocative way, I mean that in a literal, descriptive way.

And another thing ....


Your profile says you live in the US, so why do you make a point of using colloquial British terms? It seems .... odd (like so many things about your postings).

Life / MEN'S DAY and FEMALE CHAUVINIST SWINE? Situation in Poland. [46]


I'm not the wet pants type thank you, but let's look at the record (in this case Wikipedia)

"All-Polish Youth was more radical than any of organizations of the National Democracy camp. It openly praised Mussolini and his Italian fascism for its hardline stances towards the left and realisation of "national revolution". Part of the members, including Jędrzej Giertych, b. 1903, also praised Hitler's Germany. Members of All-Polish Youth also praised authoritarian regimes ... Salazar's Portugal and Franco's Spain.

They also favoured economically boycotting the Jews, limiting their access to higher education (numerus clausus) and actively campaigned for ghetto benches, segregated seating for Jewish students"

Yes this is about the first group but that's the modern group's roots. Why would anyone who isn't a fascist want to revive or belong to such an organization?

"The modern incarnation of the All-Polish Youth was founded in Poznań in 1989,.... Continuing the tradition of its precursors, the organisation maintains its aim of raising youth with their ideology, ...

In 2006 the office of the Polish public prosecutor has launched an investigation after video recording from a private party in which All-Polish Youth members ... were seen fraternizing with Neo-Nazi skinheads, listening to Neo-Nazi bands and saluting the swastika, was leaked to Polish press. After this Leokadia Wiącek has been kicked out from All-Polish Youth."

A number of other figures were caught giving the nazi salute as well.

The fact that they can pull it together for a camera and look relatively normal and non-threatening doesn't change the nature of the beast.

Language / What do you find difficult about learning Polish? [98]


Shouldn't that be = do calej twojej dupy? (to your whole ass?)

egész = whole (cały)
egészség = health (zdrowie)
egészséges = healthy (zdrowy)

Language / Du ju spik polisz? [21]


My impression is that the most common borrowings from English are for things that there are already Polish words for (but which have negative connotations which the English words don't).

Not to mention that (as is normal in all languages) once a word is established as a borrowing the meaning/usage changes from the original. (for example 'full' used as a noun in Polish or niusy (news as a plural when the original is non-count). This just makes it harder for learners to be able to use the words correctly in English in my experience.

I think the stupidest borrowings are those made by shallow people to try to impress their countrymen (listen to me! I'm so used to speaking English and so fluent that English words have permeated my speech! I bet you don't even understand half of them you silly burak!).

Also a weird thing I've noticed. Many Europeans think lots of English in other languages sounds silly or stupid but think it sounds sophisticated in their own language (which then sounds silly and stupid to others).

Language / Confused about the Polish Imperative [15]

Imperatives aren't used in giving directions IME.

You might use 'niech' once (though technically speaking niech isn't an imperative), but overall future tense (perfective) and the verb musieć are more used. You can also use trzeba.

Giving your example some wild guesses (which will probably be hilarious to Polish speakers):

Tu pan skręci w prawo, potem pan pójdzie prosto do pierwszej ulicy by skręcić w lewo ....

Pan musi pójść do pierszej ulicy i skręcić w prawo, potem pan pójdzie prosto do pierwszej ulicy by skręcić w lewo....

Trzeba pójść do pierwszej ulicy i skręcić w prawo, potem trzeba skręcić w następną ulicę w lewo ....

Also

zgubiłem się... this has connotations (I think) of existential or moral quandries

zabłądziłem is better, but you generally don't explain yourself like that.

A better tactic is just to ask.

Przepraszam pana, jak można/mogę dójść na dworzec?
or
Przepraszam pana, czy pan wie jak pójść stąd na dworzec?

Language / Confused about the Polish Imperative [15]


In My Experience

Work / Interview at a Callan School [204]

What little I know (and have seen) of Callan, it seems designed to produce people who'll answer questions, take orders and not (be able to) talk back.