Language / Numbers in the Polish Language [39]

Cześć Ivonko. Please can you help me with higher Polish numbers? I think I'm right in saying that nouns following numbers 2, 3 and 4 are in either Nominative or Accusative case, and numbers 5 and over are in the Genitive case:

dwa samochody, trzy samochody, cztery samochody BUT pięć samochodów, sześć samochodów etc. My problem is with higher numbers ending in 2, 3, and 4 such as 22, 33, 44. My grammar book suggests that numbers ending in 2, 3, or 4 do NOT take Genitive case. (Intermediate Polish by Dana Bielec, ISBN = 041522439X - Unit 17, page 77, Ex.1 - answers page198). I have found Dana Bielec' books to be very good, very helpful. Could the answers possibly be printing errors? The following answers are given for:

25 books = dwadzieścia pięć książek - OK
66 flats = sześćdziesiąt sześć mieszkań - OK
57 houses = pięćdziesiąt siedem domów - OK
32 schools = trzydzieści dwie szkoły - ??? Why not 32 szkół ?
33 chairs = trzydzieści trzy krzesła - ??? Why not 33 krzeseł ?

I would expect something like:
Miasto ma dwie szkoły
Rejon ma trzydzieści dwie szkół
Mam dwa samochody
Ojciec ma pięć samochodów
Król ma dwadzieścia dwa samochodów (and NOT 22 samochody)

I apologise for being so long-winded but maybe you could clarify this matter for me?
Many thanks, czarnykot

Language / Numbers in the Polish Language [39]

Dobry wieczór!
Dziękuję za odpowiedź. OK. Teraz, które zdanie jest poprawne, a) lub b)?

a)Rejon ma dwadzieścia dwie szkoły

b)Rejon ma dwadzieścia dwie szkół

Pozdrawiam szerdecznie
od czarnykot

Language / Numbers in the Polish Language [39]

correct
with higher numbers ending in 2,3,4 (except for 12, 13, 14) you simply use the endings that apply for the numbers 2,3,4 (so Genitive only with masculin human nouns, for example 102 mężczyzn, 1203 zawodników, 44 rozbójników, otherwise - with feminine, neuter and masculin, but non human, nouns you use Nominative)

Many thanks Krzysztof for explanation. All is now clear.
Dziękuję bardzo za wytłmaczenie. Teraz wszystko jest jasne. W końcu rozumiem! Hooraz!

Language / Why do people want to study Polish? [90]


1) For me it is a question of politeness. Too many British people just expect foreigners to speak English because English is widely spoken all over the world. I cannot stand English people who go on holiday to France for example, walk into a bar, and say 'Beer and glass of wine please'. Often no 'please'! To my way of thinking it is more polite to at least try, to begin with, to communicate with the indiginous people in their own language. Afterall, the English person abroad is a guest of that country. Anyway, making that initial attempt elicits a much better response from the person serving. Also you are far more likely to be helped with the language or whatever. The attemt also 'breaks the ice' and you can have lots of laughs over language mistakes. If you just expect people to speak English it can be considered arrogant. In fact it is arrogant!

2) Without learning someone else's language, or at least trying, you will never understand what makes that person tick. For example you will never understand the French mentality which is quite different from that of the Engkish. Also literature can lose a lot in translation (but that I guess is for advanced learners of a foreign language).

I'm trying to learn Polish... Yes, it's hard. But it is also very rewarding. I now have several Polish friends, some in the UK, some in Poland. I just feel more comfortable at least trying to communicte in the foreign language (in this case Polish) rather than always expecting the foreigner to be doing the hard work.

Those are my thoughts... Many people would disagree... But that's life! (samo życie!) I think...

Language / 'Getting married' vocab/usage [4]


Cześć gosiaczek!
Dziękuję za odpowiedź. I dziękuję za poprawkę 'ożenił' i nie !'ożeniał'. Teraz inne małe pytanie:
Do Polish people use the imperfective verb 'poślubiać'?
IF they do should it then be:
Dzisiaj Romek poślubia Agnieszkę... AND:
Wczoraj Romek poślubił Agnieszkę ???

Language / Making an apology: Polish grammar construction [6]


Michal might be right but I thought mi przykro was used in sense like 'I'm sorry that your friend died; I'm sorry you are not feeling well. I thought mi przykro has more of a sense of 'being upset' rather than the sense of 'an apology'. But I'm also a beginner in Polish so may well be mistaken. Comments by more PF members would be appreciated. Dziękuję bardzo...

Language / Making an apology: Polish grammar construction [6]

Many thanks Krzysztof. Your help is really helpful and easy to understand. It always makes sense! Dziękuję bardzo...

Language / Polish Conditionals (okresy warunkowe or zdania warunkowe) [23]

Ivonka's explanation re Polish conditional sentences is great. Many thanks. One further observation: in all the examples (I think) the subject is the same in both main and subordinate clause... If the subjects of the two clauses are different are the conditional sentence constructions the same? For example, is the following sentence correct?

Gdyby Polska wygrała mecz, to byłbym szczęśliwy.

In the subordinate clause the subject is 'Polska' and in the main clause the subject is 'ja'.

Language / Instrumental form in Polish [65]

Merged: Using the Instrumental case between two inaminate nouns A and B

Until the other day I was fairly clear on how and when to use the Instrumental case. But then I hit a snag... If 'one inanimate thing A' is 'another inaminate thing B' which 'thing, A or B' is put into the Instrumental case? One can say A is B, or B is A. In English there is no problem. But in Polish... For example:

The biggest obstacle was the Church. I translated this in an essay I was writing as: Najlepsza przeszkoda była Kościołem. My Polish Internet teacher marked this as being wrong. She said, and of course I do not doubt her, that the sentence should have been: Najlepszą przeszkodą był Kościoł. However, she had difficulty in explaining why Church/Kościoł is in the Nominative case and obstacle/przeszkodą is in the Instrumental case. What are the rules of Instrumental usage in such cases? Or would Polish people avoid the Instrumental construction/difficulty/confusion and find a different way of expressing the same idea? Any help in resolving this problem area for me would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance.

Language / Instrumental form in Polish [65]


Hi Switezianka - Yes, you are quite right - I meant to write największą (the biggest, or most important). I had written this sentence in the context of women's rights. Certainly in France the Roman Catholic Church was a major obstacle to women achieving equality. Be that as it may, yes, I would be very interested in your answer to this very advanced question. I thought it could well be a question of semantics. Yes I understand the difference between syntax and semantics :-) If you wish please email me the explanation, unless you feel other PF members would benefit from the explanation as well. ( I am sure some members would :-).) I look forward to receiving your explanation either in my email inbox or via PF. Many thanks for your initial response.

Language / Instrumental form in Polish [65]

Hi again Switezianka!
Many thanks for the clear and well-expressed explanation (Part 1 :-) Your added examples towards the bottom of the explanation are really helpful. I've read it through several times and I think I have the hang of it. Polish is a lovely language, but oh so complicated :-) But being complicated makes it all that more interesting and challenging! I look forward to Part 2. I guess word order in Polish just had to affect the meaning of a sentence as well :-) Haha.

Language / Instrumental form in Polish [65]

Hi Krzysztof and Switezianka
It looks like I've stirred up a real ol' hornet's nest re a non-native Polish speaker trying to use correctly the Instrumental case in the Polish language - apologies :-), but I find it fascinating. It certainly makes me also think about my own English language. Your approach Krzysztof is also very interesting re the Active and Passive noun within the sentence. Your approach does make a lot of sense. I would however, like to pass comment on a couple of items. (Subject + Verb + ? - I think it is the Predicate). Now to those two items:

1) The biggest obstacle was the Church. (Największą przeszkodą był Kościoł.)
vs.
The Church was the biggest obstacle. (Kościoł był największą przeszkodą.)

You say that the 2nd sentence is more natural in English... Maybe, but... To my mind the 2nd sentence is a general statement within a 'descriptive situation'. I can better imagine the 1st sentence being used/said more often because it is emphatic. For example, a group of people are discussing over dinner the issue of women's rights. All the various points have been raised and then someone says: '...., but when all is said and done, the biggest obstacle to women achieving equal rights was the Church!'.

2) You can say "Paul was an electrician", but "An electrician was Paul" doesn't sound good to me.

I agree wholeheartedly! 'An electrician was Paul' is almost nonsense! We would/could say in England - 'One of the electricians was Paul' - That makes sense.

Many thanks for your input Krzysztof. As I said, your Active/Passive approach makes a lot of sense. I am looking forward to Switezianka's following comments re 'word order also affecting the meaning' in such sentences.

PS - Learning Latin may well be a good idea... But... Mam 61 lat! Yuk! I think being able to speak Polish will be more rewarding than being able to speak Latin! But I do understand the point you are making. My step-father was a doctor and he was always emphasizing the importance of Latin ...

Language / Instrumental form in Polish [65]

Cześć Switezianka!
Gosh! You have been busy! Many thanks for your comprehensive replies concerning the usage of the Instrumental case. They will take some digesting and a lot of practice will be required to even begin to use the Case correctly. I am sure I will be refering to your answers many times over the following months. But once again, many many thanks for all your time and effort in the provision of such a detailed analysis regarding our friend the Instrumental case.

Pozdrawiam serdecznie, David

Language / bring (towards) versus take (to) - Confusing ... [6]

Hi Krzysztof!

Many thanks for explanation. I think I understand how this 'bringing' and 'taking' business works... Yes, lots of nuances re distance, who knows whom, on foot or by transport etc. It will all take a lot of practice! By the way, yes, I'm OK with the difference between nosić/nieść and wozić/wieźć (on foot vis-a-vis by transport). It's like chodzić/iść and jeździć/jechać; I believe ...

Pozdrawiam/Many thanks, David

Language / Correct form of BYĆ. Please help! [96]


What! Krzysztof does a real good job, gives proper explanations, is really helpful. In all of the replies I've had from Krzysztof I'd be very surprised if any were 'downloaded from tables in grammar books'! Which tables, which grammar books? Yes. Polish is a living language... But it is a much more complex language than Latin. But I expect you are very good at both languages...

Language / Confused about the Polish Imperative [15]

Merged: Which form of Imperative to use?

I thought the use of the Imperative was straightforward... But I am now really confused by what my Polish teacher says, my Polish friends say and what most books say. I am OK using the Imperative in an informal way, between friends, that are normally addressed in the 2nd person singular (ty). My problem concerns use of Imperative between strangers. The topic of 'Giving directions' is often addressed in Grammar books and by teachers in class. The form of the Imperative to use seems to be really varied.

Example: I'm in Warsaw and ask a stranger how to get to the railway station... What form of the Imperative would normally be used in the reply by the person unknown to me? I would first ask the question:

Przepraszam, zgubiłem się... proszę, czy Pan wie jak dojść do dworca kolejowego?

Would the reply be in the form of:

a) Tak, oczywiście. Najpierw, proszę iść prosto do skrzyżowania. Potem, na światłach, proszę skręcić w prawo, iść dalej prosto do następnego skrzyżowania i skręcić w lewo... itd.

b) Tak, oczywiście. Najpierw, idź prosto do skrzyżowania. Potem, na światłach, skręć w prawo, idź dalej prosto do następnego skrzyżowania i skręć w lewo... itd.

c) Tak, oczywiście. Najpierw, niech pan idzie do skrzyżowania. Potem, na światłach, niech pan skręci w prawo, niech pan idzie dalej prosto do następnego skrzyżowania i niech pan skręći w lewo... itd.

And then if was with my wife, asked the stranger in Warsaw the question:

Przepraszam, zgubiliśmy się... proszę, czy Pan wie jak dojść do dworca kolejowego?

Would the reply be in the form of:

a) Tak, oczywiście. Najpierw, proszę iść prosto do skrzyżowania. Potem, na światłach, proszę skręcić w prawo, iść dalej prosto do następnego skrzyżowania i skręcić w lewo... itd.

b) Tak, oczywiście. Najpierw, idźcie prosto do skrzyżowania. Potem, na światłach, skręćcie w prawo, idźcie dalej prosto do następnego skrzyżowania i skręćcie w lewo... itd.

c) Tak, oczywiście. Najpierw, niech państwo idą do skrzyżowania. Potem, na światłach, niech państwo skręcą w prawo, niech państwo idą dalej prosto do następnego skrzyżowania i niech państwo skręćą w lewo... itd.

Apologies for being so long-winded, but I'd really like to get to grips with which form of the Imperative to use, once and for all! It seems to me that replies b) are Informal replies, used with friends and would not be used when addressing a stranger. But then I may well be wrong. Do respective ages of the person asking, the person replying (both or all being strangers) affect the form of Imperative to be used?

Many thanks for any help offered.
Pozdrawiam.

Language / Confused about the Polish Imperative [15]


Thanks for your suggestions... Pan musi + Infinitive, or Trzeba + Infinitive seem to be much better Constructions re 'giving directions'. But in the above quote, what does IME stand for? I don't think I've come across this before...

Language / pedestrian crossing and traffic lights - motion/na + Locative case? [7]


Thanks for input... That is the problem... We are being taught that it is OK to say:

Idź prosto na pasach, i potem skręć w lewo... itd.

Idź prosto na światłach, i potem skręć w prawo... itd.

I guess then that 'Idź na pasach...' and 'Idź na światłach...' are only colloquial expressions without any logic to them?

Another related, but simpler question (if you would be so kind, please):

Would you say: Idę do Sądu Najwyższego... lub, Idę na Sąd Najwyższy... ? meaning

I am going to the Supreme Court, that is walking to the Supreme Court building.

Many thanks again.

Language / Popular Polish expressions/proverbs relating to months of the year [10]

chi Today, 12:04

There are many...:)

Many thanks - That is great! I have a great long list. Now I just have to try and find out what they mean...

Language / free polish -english dictionary online [52]

Merged: English Polish - Polish English Online Dictionary

Hi there!
Anybody else experiencing difficulties accessing the dictionary website dict.pl/ ? For the past 48 hours I can't access it, repeatedly getting the message from Google 'Oops, this link appears to be broken'.

Is it me, or is the website experiencing server problems, or maybe being upgraded? I hope it is being upgraded and has not been lost to us people trying to learn Polish - it is such a good resource!

Pozdrawiam
czarnykot