Ozi Dan
14 Feb 2009
History / What was Polands greatest historical moment? [24]
No it didn't. Outside intervention did.
This trend lead to destruction of Commonwealth.
No it didn't. Outside intervention did.
Ozi Dan
14 Feb 2009
History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]
Cheers for that, but not really.
Isn't Kennedy really just reciting speculation on Soviet intent vis a vis an accord with Germany?
How real was the prospect of Soviets getting out of the war?
I think this rubbish about conciliating Stalin by giving him free rein in Eastern Europe because the West feared he would pull out is pure smoke screen. Perhaps we'll never know.
Maybe this provides an answer:
Cheers for that, but not really.
Isn't Kennedy really just reciting speculation on Soviet intent vis a vis an accord with Germany?
How real was the prospect of Soviets getting out of the war?
I think this rubbish about conciliating Stalin by giving him free rein in Eastern Europe because the West feared he would pull out is pure smoke screen. Perhaps we'll never know.
Ozi Dan
13 Feb 2009
History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]
No thanks - I'm quite happy to leave it here. Starting a thread to point out what an oxygen thief you are would be slightly weird, wouldn't it. You're always quite happy to pollute other threads with your trash, so I'll take some liberties old boy.
If you wish to point out my faults then do it here or, take your own suggestion and start your own thread about it.
C'mon then ... you spare no words for other people when you harass and criticise them but you've got nothing for moi?
You can't even lay flowers and candles on those graves.
Harry - the big paper tiger. As if I would message you!
Please start a special thread for your lies about me, you can include your racism and racist abuse in that thread. I’ll happily point out all your lies and racism: in that thread.
No thanks - I'm quite happy to leave it here. Starting a thread to point out what an oxygen thief you are would be slightly weird, wouldn't it. You're always quite happy to pollute other threads with your trash, so I'll take some liberties old boy.
If you wish to point out my faults then do it here or, take your own suggestion and start your own thread about it.
C'mon then ... you spare no words for other people when you harass and criticise them but you've got nothing for moi?
You can't even lay flowers and candles on those graves.
Harry - the big paper tiger. As if I would message you!
Ozi Dan
13 Feb 2009
History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]
Where is the evidence to suggest that the USSR would NOT have stayed in the war WITHOUYT concessions
the US and UK would make consessions in order to keep USSR in the war and an ally?
Where is the evidence to suggest that the USSR would NOT have stayed in the war WITHOUYT concessions
Ozi Dan
13 Feb 2009
History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]
Why should the other be reviled equally? Shouldn't there be a degree benchmark ascribed to the acts done in the name of self interest? What about self preservation? Isn't that a form of self interest writ large.
I'm sorry, but I just can't accept your contention that self interest is self interest and no matter what you do to serve it, the action is just the same whether you shot someone or ran away, or in our case, whether you left or stayed in Poland and joined the communist party.
It's not about moral superiority but, again, degree. If you feel that joining the commos or fleeing is one in the same in a notional context, then of course it would be, to such a person, a 'morally superior' argument to say that I fled Poland rather than join the commo's. To some, fleeing Poland was better than staying. It seems context and relativity flies out the window sometimes when Poland is discussed.
Remind us. It will show how you are a racist against Aboriginals and a fervent bigot against Aussies and Poles.
Again - I'm still waiting on your response to the points I raised against you regarding the hateful and misconceived allegations you made against Australia in the other thread(s).
If I'm a Plastic Pole then you must be a PVC Pom, no?
Back up your allegations. I deny ever having race baited anyone. You say I am a race baiter because you, unlike me, threaten violence and are bigot against Poles, Aussies or anyone who doesn't share your views on this forum, particularly women, and you think you're throwing up a smoke screen by doing so.
You, unlike me, are anti-semitic because you refuse to place flowers at a grave because as you allege, the graves belong to Polish Jews.
Show your respect and deference to your host country by placing flowers and lighting a candle on the graves of BOTH Poles, Polish Jews and indeed any other nationality who perished fighting for the country and town you now call home.
Honour the memory of my ancestors and the ancestors of many other members of this forum who fell fighting in the town in which you sit in and see fit to slander and denigrate.
Because I am not anti semitic nor do I race bait. Whhy don't you start a thread and get a rise out the Poles ... oops ... you already have. That's because you are a Polonophobe.
Why don't you post some comments and get a rise out of Poles ... oops .. you already have. That's because you are a Polonophobe.
Why don't you answer any of my more weighty contentions but choose to respond to idle comments or matters that are easily responded to? Because you have nothing.
Why do you continue to decieve the forum with your half truths and failure to provide the entire spectrum of information when you post? Because you don't let the whole story get in the way of a chance to denigrate the Poles.
Which other races? I thought you said I was race baiting Jews? Can you at least stick to your story for consistency.
I have and there was nothing of any merit except your further lies and foul deceits regarding the Peking Plan ad nauseum.
Liar.
Ouch! That's scathing. I haven't heard such a rebuke since primary school.
If joining the Polish communist party to better one's life is an act of self-interest; then a Pole escaping to a better life in the free west and leaving his fellow Poles to get on with it is also acting purely in one's self-interest. If one position is reviled then so should the other; for me there is no moral superiority in the latter's position and that is the only point I am making.
Why should the other be reviled equally? Shouldn't there be a degree benchmark ascribed to the acts done in the name of self interest? What about self preservation? Isn't that a form of self interest writ large.
I'm sorry, but I just can't accept your contention that self interest is self interest and no matter what you do to serve it, the action is just the same whether you shot someone or ran away, or in our case, whether you left or stayed in Poland and joined the communist party.
It's not about moral superiority but, again, degree. If you feel that joining the commos or fleeing is one in the same in a notional context, then of course it would be, to such a person, a 'morally superior' argument to say that I fled Poland rather than join the commo's. To some, fleeing Poland was better than staying. It seems context and relativity flies out the window sometimes when Poland is discussed.
Now what was I saying about racism and Australians?
Remind us. It will show how you are a racist against Aboriginals and a fervent bigot against Aussies and Poles.
Again - I'm still waiting on your response to the points I raised against you regarding the hateful and misconceived allegations you made against Australia in the other thread(s).
Here comes our very own race-baiting Plastic Pole
If I'm a Plastic Pole then you must be a PVC Pom, no?
Back up your allegations. I deny ever having race baited anyone. You say I am a race baiter because you, unlike me, threaten violence and are bigot against Poles, Aussies or anyone who doesn't share your views on this forum, particularly women, and you think you're throwing up a smoke screen by doing so.
You, unlike me, are anti-semitic because you refuse to place flowers at a grave because as you allege, the graves belong to Polish Jews.
Show your respect and deference to your host country by placing flowers and lighting a candle on the graves of BOTH Poles, Polish Jews and indeed any other nationality who perished fighting for the country and town you now call home.
Honour the memory of my ancestors and the ancestors of many other members of this forum who fell fighting in the town in which you sit in and see fit to slander and denigrate.
Why don't you start a thread just to get a rise out of Jews?
Because I am not anti semitic nor do I race bait. Whhy don't you start a thread and get a rise out the Poles ... oops ... you already have. That's because you are a Polonophobe.
Why don't you post some comments and get a rise out of Poles ... oops .. you already have. That's because you are a Polonophobe.
Why don't you answer any of my more weighty contentions but choose to respond to idle comments or matters that are easily responded to? Because you have nothing.
Why do you continue to decieve the forum with your half truths and failure to provide the entire spectrum of information when you post? Because you don't let the whole story get in the way of a chance to denigrate the Poles.
Oh, sorry, I forgot that you prefer to bait other races than Jews.
Which other races? I thought you said I was race baiting Jews? Can you at least stick to your story for consistency.
You might want to go back and have a look yourself mate:
I have and there was nothing of any merit except your further lies and foul deceits regarding the Peking Plan ad nauseum.
every single one of your 'points' was answered.
Liar.
I see that you've stopped taking your medication. Do your carers know about this?
Ouch! That's scathing. I haven't heard such a rebuke since primary school.
Ozi Dan
12 Feb 2009
Love / Polish wedding customs/traditions? Aussie marrying Polish. [21]
Congratulations ma'am.
I don't believe there are any, though there may be a Polish club with an attached shop. You should try Sydney, which has quite a few Polish clubs and quite a few Polish deli's.
Try the Polonia/Australia threads.
Im getting married
Congratulations ma'am.
Also I would like to know of any Polish shops in Newcastle?
I don't believe there are any, though there may be a Polish club with an attached shop. You should try Sydney, which has quite a few Polish clubs and quite a few Polish deli's.
Try the Polonia/Australia threads.
Ozi Dan
12 Feb 2009
History / What was Polands greatest historical moment? [24]
I'll go from left field and say the ratification of the Nihil Novi Statute (1505). The implications were earthshaking to the politico legal direction of Poland, and this Act was simply a revelation of the time when you think about it.
Fine battles aside, I think Poland's star shone brightest historically with its frighteningly moderns concepts of government. One could be tempted to say Poland paved the way for France, GB and USA hundreds of years later.
What was Polands greatest historical moment?
I'll go from left field and say the ratification of the Nihil Novi Statute (1505). The implications were earthshaking to the politico legal direction of Poland, and this Act was simply a revelation of the time when you think about it.
Fine battles aside, I think Poland's star shone brightest historically with its frighteningly moderns concepts of government. One could be tempted to say Poland paved the way for France, GB and USA hundreds of years later.
Ozi Dan
12 Feb 2009
History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]
With respect, not really. I think the point trying to be made was that the revulsion stems from the action of joining the communist party rather than the intent behind it (self interest). Using your model, one could easily berate someone to whom self interest saw them leave a gang of murderers as opposed to joining a gang of murderers, again out of self interest. It's a bit like comparing apples with oranges, isn't it?
One could equally drop the argument down to the next level of silliness and say that the Poles who stayed were also acting out of self interest because they knew their self interests would be served eventually when Poland regained autonomy and they would be treated as heroes. That would just be silliness though. That would be Poles arguing against Poles because of who stayed and who didn't, and that would look stupid.
The concept of self interest is really a metaphysical one isn't it? Who's right, who's wrong....opinions.....judgments.
Did you tough it out in Poland or leave and then go back? I sense a veiled contempt to the Poles who left and didn't 'tough it out', so to speak. I apologise in advance if I have misconstrued your position and agenda.
That's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?
I'm mortally offended old fruit - it's been weeks and still you haven't validly and meaningfully responded to any of the contentions I made in that other thread, even though I kept reminding you, asking you, almost begging you, and even put my points in capitals in case you were short sighted. Lo and behold, you pop up here giving grief to someone who couldn't be bothered answering your little quips - one could be tempted to say:
It's good to see that since that little drubbing I gave you on the meaning of racism (because you were misconceived in y our understanding of the term) you're not throwing it around so freely and now using 'bigot' instead.
Have you laid flowers on those graves of Polish soldiers in your neighborhood that I requested of you - sorry, I forgot - you pointed out that they were Polish-Jewish graves. It's a pity you can't find it in your heart to place flowers because of that.
PS: don't worry about going back tot he other thread and responding now. The thread is dead, and you would just look churlish.
emigrating to the 'west' was also an act of pure self-interest, so one could equally say this should also be reviled, wouldn't you say?
With respect, not really. I think the point trying to be made was that the revulsion stems from the action of joining the communist party rather than the intent behind it (self interest). Using your model, one could easily berate someone to whom self interest saw them leave a gang of murderers as opposed to joining a gang of murderers, again out of self interest. It's a bit like comparing apples with oranges, isn't it?
One could equally drop the argument down to the next level of silliness and say that the Poles who stayed were also acting out of self interest because they knew their self interests would be served eventually when Poland regained autonomy and they would be treated as heroes. That would just be silliness though. That would be Poles arguing against Poles because of who stayed and who didn't, and that would look stupid.
The concept of self interest is really a metaphysical one isn't it? Who's right, who's wrong....opinions.....judgments.
Did you tough it out in Poland or leave and then go back? I sense a veiled contempt to the Poles who left and didn't 'tough it out', so to speak. I apologise in advance if I have misconstrued your position and agenda.
I don't expect you'll make any reply to that statement.
That's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?
I'm mortally offended old fruit - it's been weeks and still you haven't validly and meaningfully responded to any of the contentions I made in that other thread, even though I kept reminding you, asking you, almost begging you, and even put my points in capitals in case you were short sighted. Lo and behold, you pop up here giving grief to someone who couldn't be bothered answering your little quips - one could be tempted to say:
You are also a hypocrite
It's good to see that since that little drubbing I gave you on the meaning of racism (because you were misconceived in y our understanding of the term) you're not throwing it around so freely and now using 'bigot' instead.
Have you laid flowers on those graves of Polish soldiers in your neighborhood that I requested of you - sorry, I forgot - you pointed out that they were Polish-Jewish graves. It's a pity you can't find it in your heart to place flowers because of that.
PS: don't worry about going back tot he other thread and responding now. The thread is dead, and you would just look churlish.
Ozi Dan
8 Feb 2009
History / germany prepares for invasion of Poland [43]
Thanks for the great images mate - very poignant. Much appreciated, as I haven't seen quite a few of them before.
McCoy
Thanks for the great images mate - very poignant. Much appreciated, as I haven't seen quite a few of them before.
Ozi Dan
8 Feb 2009
History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]
I say he is. What do you think?
Why would he be considered a hero? The above info. suggests nothing heroic.
He is said to have contributed to the execution of about 150 soldiers of Poland’s Home Army (Armia Krajowa)
was he a Polish traitor?
I say he is. What do you think?
Why would he be considered a hero? The above info. suggests nothing heroic.
Ozi Dan
9 Jan 2009
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
No, not at all. Please stop lying about me. Please stop obfuscating and address the issue, namely: prove the term Pom is racist. Can't, can you, because it's not.
Davies or Zamoyski. Go look.
Go Wiki too - I'm sure there'll be something.
I read the link you provided. You deliberately failed to mention the following from that article:
"As German-Polish relations worsened in late Aug 1939, Polish leaders and those from the Western Allies alike worried that, locked in the Baltic Sea, the small Polish Navy would be no match for the German Kriegsmarine,"
this,
"The ships made rendezvous with British Royal Navy ships at 1258 on 1 Sep"
and this,
"The three Polish ships served in the Royal Navy for the remainder of the war while all other ships of the Polish Navy were sunk or captured within days of the invasion."
(emphasis added)
Not only have you been shown up for a liar, but also a deceitful and manipulating charlatan.
The answer is no. By 1945 it was too late. You know that. Answer my questions and argue against my propositions unless you agree with them.
Answering questions with questions? How like you.
1. Poland wasn't an autonomous nation, so in essence couldn't abandon anyone. It didn't have a standing army or sovereignty.
2. To the best of my knowledge, Pilsudski and Haller served under both the Germans and Austrians. Their service was primarily to fight the Russians. There was no mutual understanding of loyalty and service to a common goal.
3. They both refused to swear allegiances to G/A and in Pilsudski's case, he was jailed for that.
4. Unlike Poland in WW2, G/A's weakness was of their own creation.
5. Unlike the contract between GB and Poland, the service of Polish units in the G/A armies was a means to an end and an historical abberation.
6 Unlike GB, the Poles did not smile in the face of G/A and knife their backs.
7. Unlike GB/PL, PL and G/A were not friends at that juncture, were they?
I just want to tell the truth and keep destroying your credibility on this forum.
You too have lied and deceived and you have been exposed. Place flowers on the nearest grave of Polish soldiers where you live in Warsaw.
BTW - I recall from another thread this person asking you for a gravesite or something and you providing a link or information to that end? Am I correct in the general sense?
I am half Polish but all slavic in my genetic make up. I identify strongly with Poland and I am conscious of my heritage. I don't need to be a Polish citizen to be able to identify as being part of a Polish tradition or to come on this forum and defend Poland and Australia against people like you.
At least I'm honest with my background and agenda. You should try a bit of candour too.
Yes - academia shuns the use of internet based resources and accepts hard copy textual sources.
Given you said you had a degree, you would know about bibliographies, referencing and attitude to internet sources unless they are say government based?
BTW - if memory serves correctly, didn't you get up Lukasz some months ago in another thread for him relying on an internet source over you quoting Davies whose source was the American Congress Library? Just curious.
I'm still waiting on any challenge or response to my contentions. They are easily idenitifiable as I posted them in CAPITAL LETTERS.
Am I angering you? I can sense that and that fills me some pleasure given that you are such a dill and a toe rag.
The thing is I really couldn't care less about what you think. Tally Ho numb nuts - Harry's coat tails await.
By your logic calling somebody from Pakistan a “Paki” is perfectly acceptable (it’s not a race, it’s a nationality).
No, not at all. Please stop lying about me. Please stop obfuscating and address the issue, namely: prove the term Pom is racist. Can't, can you, because it's not.
Got a source
Davies or Zamoyski. Go look.
Go Wiki too - I'm sure there'll be something.
Just google “Peking Plan” and read all about the pride of the Polish navy running to British ports before a single shot was fired.
I read the link you provided. You deliberately failed to mention the following from that article:
"As German-Polish relations worsened in late Aug 1939, Polish leaders and those from the Western Allies alike worried that, locked in the Baltic Sea, the small Polish Navy would be no match for the German Kriegsmarine,"
this,
"The ships made rendezvous with British Royal Navy ships at 1258 on 1 Sep"
and this,
"The three Polish ships served in the Royal Navy for the remainder of the war while all other ships of the Polish Navy were sunk or captured within days of the invasion."
(emphasis added)
Not only have you been shown up for a liar, but also a deceitful and manipulating charlatan.
Funny how I can ask a question three times but you still ignore it.
The answer is no. By 1945 it was too late. You know that. Answer my questions and argue against my propositions unless you agree with them.
I should have said “Wasn’t Poland an ally of Austria and Germany in WWI? Right up until the moment that Austria and Germany lost that particular war and Poland abandoned two prone, vulnerable and essentially helpless friends. Before attacking one of those friends via thinly disguised ‘citizens uprisings’.”
Answering questions with questions? How like you.
1. Poland wasn't an autonomous nation, so in essence couldn't abandon anyone. It didn't have a standing army or sovereignty.
2. To the best of my knowledge, Pilsudski and Haller served under both the Germans and Austrians. Their service was primarily to fight the Russians. There was no mutual understanding of loyalty and service to a common goal.
3. They both refused to swear allegiances to G/A and in Pilsudski's case, he was jailed for that.
4. Unlike Poland in WW2, G/A's weakness was of their own creation.
5. Unlike the contract between GB and Poland, the service of Polish units in the G/A armies was a means to an end and an historical abberation.
6 Unlike GB, the Poles did not smile in the face of G/A and knife their backs.
7. Unlike GB/PL, PL and G/A were not friends at that juncture, were they?
Still want to talk about how badly Britain behaved towards Poland?
I just want to tell the truth and keep destroying your credibility on this forum.
She lied about the fact that any British people died in combat in Poland during WWII. She promised to light candles on the graves of any who did. Then she disappeared leaving only her lies and insults.
You too have lied and deceived and you have been exposed. Place flowers on the nearest grave of Polish soldiers where you live in Warsaw.
BTW - I recall from another thread this person asking you for a gravesite or something and you providing a link or information to that end? Am I correct in the general sense?
Hence the fact that you think you are Polish despite the facts that you have never been here, speak not a word of Polish, have no Polish passport and even call yourself “Ozi Dan”.
I am half Polish but all slavic in my genetic make up. I identify strongly with Poland and I am conscious of my heritage. I don't need to be a Polish citizen to be able to identify as being part of a Polish tradition or to come on this forum and defend Poland and Australia against people like you.
At least I'm honest with my background and agenda. You should try a bit of candour too.
But you’ll note that I’ve quoted a first-hand source and you have only said what you think somebody who can not have been a first-hand source said. See any difference there?
Yes - academia shuns the use of internet based resources and accepts hard copy textual sources.
Given you said you had a degree, you would know about bibliographies, referencing and attitude to internet sources unless they are say government based?
BTW - if memory serves correctly, didn't you get up Lukasz some months ago in another thread for him relying on an internet source over you quoting Davies whose source was the American Congress Library? Just curious.
I'm still waiting on any challenge or response to my contentions. They are easily idenitifiable as I posted them in CAPITAL LETTERS.
You are an embarrassment to the country to claim to represent.
Am I angering you? I can sense that and that fills me some pleasure given that you are such a dill and a toe rag.
The thing is I really couldn't care less about what you think. Tally Ho numb nuts - Harry's coat tails await.
Ozi Dan
7 Jan 2009
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
Wound up in the sense of a closure or in the emotional sense??
I think the only person getting their knickers in a knot is you. I'm waiting for the physical threats again Harry - go easy this time though.
I'm not going to stoop to your level of childish commentary Harry (BTW - is your surname by any chance "Highpants"). Please stop taunting me with these thunderous accusations. Please.
Who cares where you're from. The mystique surrounding your tantalising the forum by not telling us where you're from then saying you can hold many passports is lame.
Prove that the term Pom is racist, bearing in mind racism applies to 'race' (word to the wise: English is not a race, it's a nationaltiy). You can't because you are lying again. Again, please stop lying to make me look bad.
You're correct on that question that you knew the answer to anyway.
I won't be telling anyone that because it's not acceptable. On the other hand, you will continue to lie on this forum and tell people that I think those terms are acceptable because you are a liar. Please stop lying about me to make me look bad and you look good.
Yes, those acts. Good to see you chose to ignore the qualifying statement to my contention. Strange how you miss any opportunity to engage in debate. Do'h - I forgot. You can't debate - all you can do is Wiki some 'facts' and post them on the forum - big deal.
By the way, those airmen sometimes volunteered without permission from superiors, so, technically you're lying again when you say that those acts were ordered by HMG because not all of them were. Again, stop with the lies.
No, I don't mean it the other way around. It is interchangeable though, depending on the CONTEXT.
Please, give us the Wiki link you frantically searched info regarding Poles running to England before the war commenced. I'm in suspense.
Another word to the wise - be sure to give us the whole story because if you don't I'll simply track down the whole picture behind your skeleton facts and demonstrate again that you manipulate facts to suggest a negative picture of the Poles which, given your repetition of this theme, can only suggest spite and malice.
What is wrong with you. How on earth did you come up with such a response to my contention. It has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Please, fight for your negative beliefs against the Poles with more than just that old guff. Please don't tell me that if you can't find a mere fact to discredit an opinion you simply shrivel and start repeating a tired old question like...
and...
shall I keep going or end the misery?
It's just getting worse Harry. What are you on about, apart from having another spiteful stab at Poland because, yet again, you have no argument to make and no challenge to my contention.
The answer is whether they wished to continue to fight for the Poms, you knuckle dragger.
This is getting ridiculous. Please stop lying to everyone.
The answer is no (I just checked that on WIKI).
(BTW - I'm waiting for the obvious indignant response from you as I just followed your example of not replying to your full post by cherry picking a part of it to make you look like a goose).
So what? Oh, I get it, you're one of those types of people who says they can go around calling black people derogatory terms because they know a black person and that makes it ok or their grandad fought alongside a black person and that makes it ok. Lame - have some self respect.
Stop with the lies and deceit. I ignore these types of questions and hope that YOU don't notice.
I'm unaware of any aboriginal hunts in Australia. Perhaps you could tell me when it became unlawful. Please reference the Act and pertinent section as I'm curious. Please also cite these 'hunts'. You can try a great online search tool called Wiki. Be sure to start a thread in 'off topic lounge' though, as it's really got nothing to do with this thread, has it? If I don't join you in your very own thread, I'm sure others are just itching to tete a tete with you on such a great issue.
Like I said, you've raised the issues of the Aboriginals on this and another thread - why? I'm serious mate.
Oh geez! This is turning into the old chestnut of "I know you are, but what am I?"
Ok, I will just for you Harry. Promise you'll do as I asked too??
You got me.
Just as you are happy to harass and intimidate that same female by following her around in other threads and calling her a liar too eh. What a weird thing to do.
No, that is not sexual equality. Get a grip. Would you slap a female if she slapped you? By your definition, that's sexual equality too isn't it.
Grow a set and lay off the females on this forum.
No I didn't. My father was born in Lodz. My grandfather was born in Stanislawow. I was born in Australia. I have never been to Poland. Unlike you, I don't hold multiple passports. Unlike you, I don't feel a passport or physical location is a requisite to a nexus to a country.
The answer is what it is. Do you believe nothing more could have been done? Do you believe that the Brits should have informed the Poles that they were being sold out to the Russians without protest from Britain? Do you think it was fair that the Brits kept Poles in their ranks when they knew that they had sold the Poles out? Just some simple things that the Poms could have done, but didn't.
Norman Davies is lying then and so is the Sikorski Institute, who, if memory serves correctly, was his source. See Rising '44. I can't recall the page number but the index will help you.
Wow. I wish I had a degree that was 'so good'. What a goose you are.
Just had a mental picture of your job interview:
"Mr Highpants, I see in your CV you have a degree - what field does your degree relate to?"
"Well Professor Kowalski, it transcends any field because it is sooo goood.
"Boze - your hired!"
Hang on, didn't you proclaim you're an author? Forgot - that turned out to be a casual spot of journalism on the back page of some Warsaw rag. What next Harry?
a) Judging by the tone and length of your reply, the wind-up merchant has been wound up by his own thread. What a pity.
Wound up in the sense of a closure or in the emotional sense??
I think the only person getting their knickers in a knot is you. I'm waiting for the physical threats again Harry - go easy this time though.
Not all Aussies are racists like you.
I'm not going to stoop to your level of childish commentary Harry (BTW - is your surname by any chance "Highpants"). Please stop taunting me with these thunderous accusations. Please.
And before you claim it, I am not a “Pom”: I was not born in Britain, neither were either of my parents. I’ll grant you that one of my grandparents was born in the UK but in Scotland to be exact.
Who cares where you're from. The mystique surrounding your tantalising the forum by not telling us where you're from then saying you can hold many passports is lame.
Does the racist term “Pom” include Scots? I thought it was only English.
Prove that the term Pom is racist, bearing in mind racism applies to 'race' (word to the wise: English is not a race, it's a nationaltiy). You can't because you are lying again. Again, please stop lying to make me look bad.
You're correct on that question that you knew the answer to anyway.
Next you’ll be telling us that the words ‘Paki’ and ‘Nigger’ are perfectly acceptable (of course they are to you)
I won't be telling anyone that because it's not acceptable. On the other hand, you will continue to lie on this forum and tell people that I think those terms are acceptable because you are a liar. Please stop lying about me to make me look bad and you look good.
The individual acts of courage and selflessness which were ordered by the British government?
Yes, those acts. Good to see you chose to ignore the qualifying statement to my contention. Strange how you miss any opportunity to engage in debate. Do'h - I forgot. You can't debate - all you can do is Wiki some 'facts' and post them on the forum - big deal.
By the way, those airmen sometimes volunteered without permission from superiors, so, technically you're lying again when you say that those acts were ordered by HMG because not all of them were. Again, stop with the lies.
Poland was Britain’s first ally? I think you mean that it was the other way round. Or did Poland declare war on Germany in support of Britain? Did Poland provide a safe harbour for British forces which were running away from the Nazis even before the war started?
No, I don't mean it the other way around. It is interchangeable though, depending on the CONTEXT.
Please, give us the Wiki link you frantically searched info regarding Poles running to England before the war commenced. I'm in suspense.
Another word to the wise - be sure to give us the whole story because if you don't I'll simply track down the whole picture behind your skeleton facts and demonstrate again that you manipulate facts to suggest a negative picture of the Poles which, given your repetition of this theme, can only suggest spite and malice.
Ozi Dan:SUBSEQUENT EVENTS WOULD SUGGEST THIS WAS MERE RHETORIC TO INSTILL A DESIRE IN THE POLES TO FIGHT AND DIE FOR THE POMS
What would you like the British to have done in 1945? Stop fighting the Nazis and start fighting the Soviets? Yet again a Pole (to use the word in its loosest possible way) blames Britain for Poland’s inability to free itself.
What would you like the British to have done in 1945? Stop fighting the Nazis and start fighting the Soviets? Yet again a Pole (to use the word in its loosest possible way) blames Britain for Poland’s inability to free itself.
What is wrong with you. How on earth did you come up with such a response to my contention. It has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Please, fight for your negative beliefs against the Poles with more than just that old guff. Please don't tell me that if you can't find a mere fact to discredit an opinion you simply shrivel and start repeating a tired old question like...
What would you like the British to have done in 1945? Start WWIII?
and...
What would you like the British to have done in 1945? Start WWIII?
shall I keep going or end the misery?
Ozi Dan:THEREFORE THE POLES WERE NOT ABLE TO CHOOSE WHETHER THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR SOMEONE ELSE
Who would they fight for? Nobody give enough of a shit to do anything to help Poland.
Who would they fight for? Nobody give enough of a shit to do anything to help Poland.
It's just getting worse Harry. What are you on about, apart from having another spiteful stab at Poland because, yet again, you have no argument to make and no challenge to my contention.
The answer is whether they wished to continue to fight for the Poms, you knuckle dragger.
Wasn’t Poland an ally of Austria and Germany in WWII?
This is getting ridiculous. Please stop lying to everyone.
The answer is no (I just checked that on WIKI).
(BTW - I'm waiting for the obvious indignant response from you as I just followed your example of not replying to your full post by cherry picking a part of it to make you look like a goose).
No need thanks. My grandfather was a Spitfire pilot and flew with Poles. My grandmother was an RAF nurse and treated Poles. Their stories about Poles in wartime and the Poles that they are still in touch with were one of the reasons I came to Poland.
So what? Oh, I get it, you're one of those types of people who says they can go around calling black people derogatory terms because they know a black person and that makes it ok or their grandad fought alongside a black person and that makes it ok. Lame - have some self respect.
I have never made any such reference. I have asked you when hunting Aborigines for sport became illegal in the Lucky Country. It’s a question which you deal with in your normal way: ignore it and hope nobody notices.
Stop with the lies and deceit. I ignore these types of questions and hope that YOU don't notice.
I'm unaware of any aboriginal hunts in Australia. Perhaps you could tell me when it became unlawful. Please reference the Act and pertinent section as I'm curious. Please also cite these 'hunts'. You can try a great online search tool called Wiki. Be sure to start a thread in 'off topic lounge' though, as it's really got nothing to do with this thread, has it? If I don't join you in your very own thread, I'm sure others are just itching to tete a tete with you on such a great issue.
Like I said, you've raised the issues of the Aboriginals on this and another thread - why? I'm serious mate.
Please keep the direct and overt racist abuse out of yours.
Oh geez! This is turning into the old chestnut of "I know you are, but what am I?"
Ok, I will just for you Harry. Promise you'll do as I asked too??
The person who brought racism to this thread was you.
You got me.
I’m quite happy to call a female liar a liar when she lies. That is called sexual equality. I can understand that the concept is not one that you are familiar with.
Just as you are happy to harass and intimidate that same female by following her around in other threads and calling her a liar too eh. What a weird thing to do.
No, that is not sexual equality. Get a grip. Would you slap a female if she slapped you? By your definition, that's sexual equality too isn't it.
Grow a set and lay off the females on this forum.
You said that your grandfather was born in Poland but your father was born in Australia. Or was it that your father was born in Britain. Which would make you more of a “Pom” than me.
No I didn't. My father was born in Lodz. My grandfather was born in Stanislawow. I was born in Australia. I have never been to Poland. Unlike you, I don't hold multiple passports. Unlike you, I don't feel a passport or physical location is a requisite to a nexus to a country.
So you have no idea what could have been done. Might the reason be that nothing more could have been done? What a strange concept.
The answer is what it is. Do you believe nothing more could have been done? Do you believe that the Brits should have informed the Poles that they were being sold out to the Russians without protest from Britain? Do you think it was fair that the Brits kept Poles in their ranks when they knew that they had sold the Poles out? Just some simple things that the Poms could have done, but didn't.
Please stop with the lies. Invites were issued to free Poles “a week or so” after news of the parade was announced.
Norman Davies is lying then and so is the Sikorski Institute, who, if memory serves correctly, was his source. See Rising '44. I can't recall the page number but the index will help you.
Thanks for the concern but I do actually have a degree. One so good that when put on my CV it is more than good enough to get me employment at Polish universities teaching English writing.
Wow. I wish I had a degree that was 'so good'. What a goose you are.
Just had a mental picture of your job interview:
"Mr Highpants, I see in your CV you have a degree - what field does your degree relate to?"
"Well Professor Kowalski, it transcends any field because it is sooo goood.
"Boze - your hired!"
Hang on, didn't you proclaim you're an author? Forgot - that turned out to be a casual spot of journalism on the back page of some Warsaw rag. What next Harry?
Ozi Dan
2 Jan 2009
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
G'day mate - of course you can, and it's a very thought provoking hypothetical you've come up with.
I'll speculate and say yes. I'll assume that all the parameters for your hypothetical are the same except for the fact that GB has replaced Poland (even though you've put in some other variables that really change the substance and relevance of your hypothetical ie
Why do I say yes? Look at the military history of Poland and it's tradition of adhering to agreements and promises. Although old, Poniatowski's loyalty to Napoleon during the westward retreat and before Leipzig is exemplary and characteristic of the Polish attitude toward allies.
More recently and relevantly, look at the Polish contribution during WW2 when fighting under the auspices and command of the British. Despite being beaten, tens of thousands left Poland and fought under the British. Is there any reason why they wouldn't meaningfully assist the British, particularly when obliged to?
Poles remember their friends and allies (generalisation I know). I knew an old Pole a few years ago who spoke fondly of the Irish and Scots purely because a large volume of them travelled to and fought for Poland during the 1863 Insurrection. Odd isn't it?
Of course we're talking of a bygone era. I think Davies summed up the Polish ethos well in saying that to Poles, the way the game was played was more important than the winning or losing. I ascribe to that.
Ozi?
Can I ask you a question?
Can I ask you a question?
G'day mate - of course you can, and it's a very thought provoking hypothetical you've come up with.
I'll speculate and say yes. I'll assume that all the parameters for your hypothetical are the same except for the fact that GB has replaced Poland (even though you've put in some other variables that really change the substance and relevance of your hypothetical ie
But fully knowing too that taking actively the side of GB would mean total
destruction
destruction
Why do I say yes? Look at the military history of Poland and it's tradition of adhering to agreements and promises. Although old, Poniatowski's loyalty to Napoleon during the westward retreat and before Leipzig is exemplary and characteristic of the Polish attitude toward allies.
More recently and relevantly, look at the Polish contribution during WW2 when fighting under the auspices and command of the British. Despite being beaten, tens of thousands left Poland and fought under the British. Is there any reason why they wouldn't meaningfully assist the British, particularly when obliged to?
Poles remember their friends and allies (generalisation I know). I knew an old Pole a few years ago who spoke fondly of the Irish and Scots purely because a large volume of them travelled to and fought for Poland during the 1863 Insurrection. Odd isn't it?
Of course we're talking of a bygone era. I think Davies summed up the Polish ethos well in saying that to Poles, the way the game was played was more important than the winning or losing. I ascribe to that.
Ozi Dan
1 Jan 2009
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
Liar.
Just one example.
Stop lying Harry.
That would be a silly lie to make, wouldn't it. By your own account, the Poms bombed Wilhelmshaven successfully in Sept '39 (another lie, because the link you provided contends it was unsuccessful), dropped leaflets and invited individual Poles to the VE Day Parade.
Further, how dare you appropriate the memories of all those brave Cth. pilots who died for Poland during the airdrops of the Rising by contending that individual acts of courage and selflessness were somehow indicative of the British general attitude toward assistance for Poland as a whole. Have you no shame?
Aside from speculating as to what the Poms could have done for Poland in the strategic/tactical sense, I've mentioned the following before on this thread, but you and your mates ignored it, so here it is in CAPITALS. It sets out what the Poms could have (or, more correctly, shouldn't habve) done for Poland:
1. POLAND WAS SOLD OUT BY THE POMS (AND THE USA) AT TEHERAN.
2. POLAND WAS NOT ADVISED OF THIS. POLAND WAS PROMISED BY THE POMS THAT THEY WOULD, AS THE POMS FIRST ALLY, REMAIN UNDIMINISHED OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT. SUBSEQUENT EVENTS WOULD SUGGEST THIS WAS MERE RHETORIC TO INSTILL A DESIRE IN THE POLES TO FIGHT AND DIE FOR THE POMS - IT WORKED.
3. NOTWITHSTANDING, THE POMS CONTINUED TO USE POLISH SOLDIERS UNDER THEIR COMMAND FOR END PURPOSES OTHER THAN WHAT THE POLISH SOLDIERS THOUGHT THEY WERE FIGHTING FOR. THE POLES THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE ASSISTED BY THE POMS IN AT LEAST EXERTING SOME LEVERAGE ON RUSSIA. THE CONTRARY WAS THE CASE.
4. REPEAT - THE POMS USED THE POLES, KNOWING THEY HAD STABBED THEM IN THE BACK THOUGH CONTINUING TO USE THEM FOR THEIR OWN IMPERATIVES. THEY DID NOT INFORM THE POLES OF THIS DEAL WITH STALIN AND THEREFORE THE POLES WERE NOT ABLE TO CHOOSE WHETHER THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR SOMEONE ELSE WITH NO PROSPECT OF MUTUAL GAIN.
5. THE POLES ACTED IN GOOD FAITH. THE POMS DID NOT. THE POLES THOUGHT THE POMS WERE THEIR FRIENDS AND ALLIES. THE POMS CHOSE WHAT SOME WOULD CALL REALPOLITIK OVER AN ALLY. THEY KOW-TOWED TO A FORMER GERMAN ALLY (RUSSIA) AND ABANDONED A PRONE, VULNERABLE AND ESSENTIALLY HELPLESS FRIEND. THE POLES DID NOT.
6. AFTER WW2, POLAND WAS OCCUPIED BY AN ALIEN NATION WITH A PUPPET REGIME. BRITAIN WAS NOT. TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POLES DIED FIGHTING FOR THE POMS DURING WW2 ON THE UNDERSTANDING OF SHARED GOALS, AMBITIONS AND MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL OUTCOMES. THE POMS OBVIOUSLY HAD A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING.
7. THE USA WAS COMPLICIT IN THE ABOVE. THE DIFFERENCE HOWEVER WAS THAT THE POMS HAD AN AGREEMENT WITH THE POLES. THAT IS WHY LINES OF ENQUIRY ARE DIRECTED AT THE POMS. YOU EXPECT MORE FROM A FRIEND THAN A FRIEND OF A FRIEND.
8. MANY POMS FOUGHT AND DIED FIGHTING FOR POLES AND WERE DISGUSTED WHEN THEY LEARNED OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THEIR FRIENDS AND COMRADES. HMG ENSURED THEIR SACRIFICES WERE IN VAIN BY VIRTUE OF THEIR POLICY TOWARD POLAND AND THE RUSSIANS (I recommend you make a small sojourn to your nearest ex servicemen's club and speak to one who fought with the Poles - it will foster y our understanding of this theme).
Liar.The word "Pom" is not a racist term, and you are well aware of that. It's akin to "Limey", "Yank" etc. Please stop lying and misrepresenting to try to make me look bad and you look aggrieved. You just look like a goose.
Further, I find your continued reference to the rich aboriginal culture of Australia as being some kind of sport where Australians hunted them quite frankly sickening and you've mentioned it quite a few times on this and another thread. Please keep the implied racism out of your 'arguments'. It's bad enough that you think it OK to use harassing and intimidating language toward women on this forum and now you want to bring racism into it. I won't mention the physical threats you made to me on the that other thread.
For the record, I'm actually first generation Aussie. See how easy it is to tell a lie if you don't bother checking the facts.
The questions as I recall them were in essence the following (with my answers). Please do put any other questions to me that I may have missed when drinking in the words of wisdom from you and your Pomgolian friends on this thread:
1. Q. What else could the Poms have done to help the Poles? A. I honestly don't know, but I suppose they could at least have told the Poles they were fighting for nothing after being sold out by them and to expect that once they stopped fighting for the Poms they may not have a home to go to as it would probably fall in annexed Russian territory.
2. Q. I set this thread up to get a rise out of the Poms. A. You got me. An Aussie never misses a chance to do that.
3. Q. The Poles were invited to the VE Day Parade but didn't bother to turn up, did they? A. Certain individual Poles were invited on the night before the parade when it became apparent tot he organisers that the Communist faction wouldn't show. Saying that they didn't bother to show up is another lie Harry. The invites were cordially declined.
I think that's about it, but refresh my memory if I'm wrong.
Here's the lesson Harry (I seem to have to keep giving them to you) - have you heard of the phrase "not seeing he forest for the trees"? It means not seeing the greater picture because you are so focused on component parts, thinking those component parts, taken in isolation, are the whole and indisputable truth. I think you suffer from this condition. Blind adherence to what you call 'facts', without analysis of the situation and context which usually change the meaning of those facts, is risky. The more you stick to the 'facts', without realising they are just components, the more you start looking like a dill when someone paints the whole picture.
They would have taught you textual analysis at Uni wouldn't they? Oops - my bad - you don't need a degree to slap together and sell tourist fliers, do you?
I had more to dish out, but it's 2009 and a New Year and I thought I'd give you a reprieve from the hammerings you usually cop.
Poland got nothing because Poland struggled for nobody but Poland.
Liar.
battle of Britain
Just one example.
Stop lying Harry.
Plastic Poles like to lie about how Britain did nothing after war was declared.
That would be a silly lie to make, wouldn't it. By your own account, the Poms bombed Wilhelmshaven successfully in Sept '39 (another lie, because the link you provided contends it was unsuccessful), dropped leaflets and invited individual Poles to the VE Day Parade.
Further, how dare you appropriate the memories of all those brave Cth. pilots who died for Poland during the airdrops of the Rising by contending that individual acts of courage and selflessness were somehow indicative of the British general attitude toward assistance for Poland as a whole. Have you no shame?
Aside from speculating as to what the Poms could have done for Poland in the strategic/tactical sense, I've mentioned the following before on this thread, but you and your mates ignored it, so here it is in CAPITALS. It sets out what the Poms could have (or, more correctly, shouldn't habve) done for Poland:
1. POLAND WAS SOLD OUT BY THE POMS (AND THE USA) AT TEHERAN.
2. POLAND WAS NOT ADVISED OF THIS. POLAND WAS PROMISED BY THE POMS THAT THEY WOULD, AS THE POMS FIRST ALLY, REMAIN UNDIMINISHED OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT. SUBSEQUENT EVENTS WOULD SUGGEST THIS WAS MERE RHETORIC TO INSTILL A DESIRE IN THE POLES TO FIGHT AND DIE FOR THE POMS - IT WORKED.
3. NOTWITHSTANDING, THE POMS CONTINUED TO USE POLISH SOLDIERS UNDER THEIR COMMAND FOR END PURPOSES OTHER THAN WHAT THE POLISH SOLDIERS THOUGHT THEY WERE FIGHTING FOR. THE POLES THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE ASSISTED BY THE POMS IN AT LEAST EXERTING SOME LEVERAGE ON RUSSIA. THE CONTRARY WAS THE CASE.
4. REPEAT - THE POMS USED THE POLES, KNOWING THEY HAD STABBED THEM IN THE BACK THOUGH CONTINUING TO USE THEM FOR THEIR OWN IMPERATIVES. THEY DID NOT INFORM THE POLES OF THIS DEAL WITH STALIN AND THEREFORE THE POLES WERE NOT ABLE TO CHOOSE WHETHER THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR SOMEONE ELSE WITH NO PROSPECT OF MUTUAL GAIN.
5. THE POLES ACTED IN GOOD FAITH. THE POMS DID NOT. THE POLES THOUGHT THE POMS WERE THEIR FRIENDS AND ALLIES. THE POMS CHOSE WHAT SOME WOULD CALL REALPOLITIK OVER AN ALLY. THEY KOW-TOWED TO A FORMER GERMAN ALLY (RUSSIA) AND ABANDONED A PRONE, VULNERABLE AND ESSENTIALLY HELPLESS FRIEND. THE POLES DID NOT.
6. AFTER WW2, POLAND WAS OCCUPIED BY AN ALIEN NATION WITH A PUPPET REGIME. BRITAIN WAS NOT. TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POLES DIED FIGHTING FOR THE POMS DURING WW2 ON THE UNDERSTANDING OF SHARED GOALS, AMBITIONS AND MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL OUTCOMES. THE POMS OBVIOUSLY HAD A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING.
7. THE USA WAS COMPLICIT IN THE ABOVE. THE DIFFERENCE HOWEVER WAS THAT THE POMS HAD AN AGREEMENT WITH THE POLES. THAT IS WHY LINES OF ENQUIRY ARE DIRECTED AT THE POMS. YOU EXPECT MORE FROM A FRIEND THAN A FRIEND OF A FRIEND.
8. MANY POMS FOUGHT AND DIED FIGHTING FOR POLES AND WERE DISGUSTED WHEN THEY LEARNED OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THEIR FRIENDS AND COMRADES. HMG ENSURED THEIR SACRIFICES WERE IN VAIN BY VIRTUE OF THEIR POLICY TOWARD POLAND AND THE RUSSIANS (I recommend you make a small sojourn to your nearest ex servicemen's club and speak to one who fought with the Poles - it will foster y our understanding of this theme).
just as second generation Aussies rarely let the chance of a bit of casual racism pass them by (as Ozi Dan proves in his posts).
Liar.The word "Pom" is not a racist term, and you are well aware of that. It's akin to "Limey", "Yank" etc. Please stop lying and misrepresenting to try to make me look bad and you look aggrieved. You just look like a goose.
Further, I find your continued reference to the rich aboriginal culture of Australia as being some kind of sport where Australians hunted them quite frankly sickening and you've mentioned it quite a few times on this and another thread. Please keep the implied racism out of your 'arguments'. It's bad enough that you think it OK to use harassing and intimidating language toward women on this forum and now you want to bring racism into it. I won't mention the physical threats you made to me on the that other thread.
For the record, I'm actually first generation Aussie. See how easy it is to tell a lie if you don't bother checking the facts.
Good to see that as always you refuse to answer any of the questions which I or anybody else put to you.
The questions as I recall them were in essence the following (with my answers). Please do put any other questions to me that I may have missed when drinking in the words of wisdom from you and your Pomgolian friends on this thread:
1. Q. What else could the Poms have done to help the Poles? A. I honestly don't know, but I suppose they could at least have told the Poles they were fighting for nothing after being sold out by them and to expect that once they stopped fighting for the Poms they may not have a home to go to as it would probably fall in annexed Russian territory.
2. Q. I set this thread up to get a rise out of the Poms. A. You got me. An Aussie never misses a chance to do that.
3. Q. The Poles were invited to the VE Day Parade but didn't bother to turn up, did they? A. Certain individual Poles were invited on the night before the parade when it became apparent tot he organisers that the Communist faction wouldn't show. Saying that they didn't bother to show up is another lie Harry. The invites were cordially declined.
I think that's about it, but refresh my memory if I'm wrong.
Here's the lesson Harry (I seem to have to keep giving them to you) - have you heard of the phrase "not seeing he forest for the trees"? It means not seeing the greater picture because you are so focused on component parts, thinking those component parts, taken in isolation, are the whole and indisputable truth. I think you suffer from this condition. Blind adherence to what you call 'facts', without analysis of the situation and context which usually change the meaning of those facts, is risky. The more you stick to the 'facts', without realising they are just components, the more you start looking like a dill when someone paints the whole picture.
They would have taught you textual analysis at Uni wouldn't they? Oops - my bad - you don't need a degree to slap together and sell tourist fliers, do you?
I had more to dish out, but it's 2009 and a New Year and I thought I'd give you a reprieve from the hammerings you usually cop.
Ozi Dan
31 Dec 2008
History / Forgotten heroes of the forgotten war [8]
Wouldn't it be irrelevant even if they called for it? I'm unaware of any age limitations for these gentlemen to face charges.
Are they calling for reconciliation or perhaps complaining of "Poles living in the past" ?
Wouldn't it be irrelevant even if they called for it? I'm unaware of any age limitations for these gentlemen to face charges.
Ozi Dan
31 Dec 2008
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
What? - it's own resident penny a pound pamphleteer whose second job is hanging around this forum pretending to spread the truth? I'd hardly call that a deserved outcome.
Apart from the quip I quoted you on, you've categorically failed to provide any response to the topic. I challenge you to do so.
You can't, can you, because you would have done so by now.
out of wars and struggles "for others" Poland got exactly what it deserved.
What? - it's own resident penny a pound pamphleteer whose second job is hanging around this forum pretending to spread the truth? I'd hardly call that a deserved outcome.
Apart from the quip I quoted you on, you've categorically failed to provide any response to the topic. I challenge you to do so.
You can't, can you, because you would have done so by now.
Ozi Dan
10 Dec 2008
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
I'm here huckleberry.
What is more conspicuously absent is your lack of ability to generate original ideas and merely hang on to the coat tails of Messrs Kikline and Harry et al.
In fact, what is more conspicuously absent is a sense of respect for women, judging by your and Vanfukoolo's post's against certian female forum members on this topic. You and your ilk disgust me and I'm sure others feel the same whose modesty may stop them from commenting - I however have no such trepidation.
What you've done is akin to a form of harassment. If you weren't a halfwit I'd be concerned but your apparent lack of logic suggests you have no control over your actions.
If you were a man, you'd apologise. Fair enough you have a different view to these ladies but that's no excuse for the way you post.
Back to the topic:
The Pomgolian (Harry, Kline, Irons etc) perspective appears to be that Poles are whingeing or attacking the English for betraying Poland.
I put a similar notion in the introductory statement to my post and invited you to attack that. You failed to come up with anything. The only person that I see who came up with anything intelligible was Osiol. I dont know if he's a Pom or what though.
Consequently, the road of the coward and ill informed was taken - why self reflect when you can blame it all on someone else, or divest responsibility with reference to minor anecdotes as evidence of fulfilment of Britain's 'obligations'.
Naturally, your response is what could we have done? You say Poles were invited to the VE ceremony, the RAF conducted a succesful bombing raid on 5 September 1939 and other gargantuan achievements in supposed discharge of your obligations under the treaty/contract/agreement entered with Poland just before WW2 (no doubt I'll be corrected for incorrect dates. So be it. I'm more interested in analysis rather than rote).
I've raised this before in another thread with another bloke from England who I'm happy to say had a wit keener than all three of you said bumblers put together and didn't resort to disrespecting women either.
Take a balance sheet of Polish contributions in discharge of her obligations under the treaty and then cross reference that against the English contributions. Now, I won't spoon feed, but it kicks off for Poland at about the BoB. It's common knowledge the balance is in Poland's favour. It's trite to say the Poms did a few things too. You've pointed those out so no need to repeat.
Your response will no doubt be (as it's been touched on already) the parameters were unclear, nothing said in the treaty compelled the Brits to do much, not binding etc etc - basically, that it was a sham, set up for political niceties and a bit of chest beating.
This is where it gets interesting...
There is a legal concept called estoppel, or more particularly, equitable estoppel. It's not really my area of law, but in a nutshell it says that a party (GB) should not go back on a promise or undertaking or undermine an assumption of action when another party (Pl) acts on the assumption, or that promise, to their detriment.
You fill in the gaps and relate it to our situation. Clear now?
This is where it gets more interesting:
The Poms failed to tell the Poles that they had effectively been cut loose at Teheran with the deal cut between Stalin and Churchill until Mickolaczyk got crucified when he thought he was entering into territorial negotiations in good faith in late 1944.
One can only assume the relative morality and sense of alliance of GB and Poland in those circumstances:
THE POMS KEPT THE POLES IN THEIR RANKS TO FIGHT FOR THEM WHILST KNOWING THAT THEY HAD STRUCK A DEAL WITH STALIN THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD TO THE POLES AS IT EFFECTIVELY DOOMED THEM TO SOVIET CONTROL.
I think it was Slessor who summed that piece of backstabbing nicely (and I take liberty with paraphrasing):
WE'VE BLED THE POLES DRY NOW WE INTEND TO CAST THEM ADRIFT
One of those bled dry under the British was my grand uncle. He wanted to return home but couldn't. Kind of sucks doesn't it? But I'm just a plastic Pole with no connection to the issues, aren't I? This coming from two Poms on a Polish forum, one of whom has no clearly identified link to anything Polish and another who wishes he had a Polish girlfriend.
You'll no doubt come back and say it was done to secure stability in the East, Russian co-operation, realpolitik necessities or a myriad of other excuses. Fair enough - however, a stab in the back is still the same whether it's delivered with an altrusitic riposte or a self serving lunge. Poles, and we plastic Poles, take issue with being stabbed - you take issue with us for doing that.
Should I and like minded posters be criticised, or should you?
Between the 3 or 4 of you, I'm sure you'll organise some half assed response. It's been my experience though that a group of Poms have trouble organising a piss up in a pub.
Oh, and gentlemen - before you spout off about Australia being a prison colony of England in trying to diminish my credit, I suggest you relate to the other members just how that came about and who came here - Ill start you off - Scots and Irish political prisoners, destitutes who stole loaves of bread to survive etc.
I'm proud of the 'convict culture', even though I'm not Anglo Saxon. You again seek to impress a negative connotation when the whole context shows differently. The egg (or in your instance, jellied eel) is on your faces. Learn from it.
Ozi Dan created the thread and is conspicuous by his absence since.
I'm here huckleberry.
What is more conspicuously absent is your lack of ability to generate original ideas and merely hang on to the coat tails of Messrs Kikline and Harry et al.
In fact, what is more conspicuously absent is a sense of respect for women, judging by your and Vanfukoolo's post's against certian female forum members on this topic. You and your ilk disgust me and I'm sure others feel the same whose modesty may stop them from commenting - I however have no such trepidation.
What you've done is akin to a form of harassment. If you weren't a halfwit I'd be concerned but your apparent lack of logic suggests you have no control over your actions.
If you were a man, you'd apologise. Fair enough you have a different view to these ladies but that's no excuse for the way you post.
Back to the topic:
The Pomgolian (Harry, Kline, Irons etc) perspective appears to be that Poles are whingeing or attacking the English for betraying Poland.
I put a similar notion in the introductory statement to my post and invited you to attack that. You failed to come up with anything. The only person that I see who came up with anything intelligible was Osiol. I dont know if he's a Pom or what though.
Consequently, the road of the coward and ill informed was taken - why self reflect when you can blame it all on someone else, or divest responsibility with reference to minor anecdotes as evidence of fulfilment of Britain's 'obligations'.
Naturally, your response is what could we have done? You say Poles were invited to the VE ceremony, the RAF conducted a succesful bombing raid on 5 September 1939 and other gargantuan achievements in supposed discharge of your obligations under the treaty/contract/agreement entered with Poland just before WW2 (no doubt I'll be corrected for incorrect dates. So be it. I'm more interested in analysis rather than rote).
I've raised this before in another thread with another bloke from England who I'm happy to say had a wit keener than all three of you said bumblers put together and didn't resort to disrespecting women either.
Take a balance sheet of Polish contributions in discharge of her obligations under the treaty and then cross reference that against the English contributions. Now, I won't spoon feed, but it kicks off for Poland at about the BoB. It's common knowledge the balance is in Poland's favour. It's trite to say the Poms did a few things too. You've pointed those out so no need to repeat.
Your response will no doubt be (as it's been touched on already) the parameters were unclear, nothing said in the treaty compelled the Brits to do much, not binding etc etc - basically, that it was a sham, set up for political niceties and a bit of chest beating.
This is where it gets interesting...
There is a legal concept called estoppel, or more particularly, equitable estoppel. It's not really my area of law, but in a nutshell it says that a party (GB) should not go back on a promise or undertaking or undermine an assumption of action when another party (Pl) acts on the assumption, or that promise, to their detriment.
You fill in the gaps and relate it to our situation. Clear now?
This is where it gets more interesting:
The Poms failed to tell the Poles that they had effectively been cut loose at Teheran with the deal cut between Stalin and Churchill until Mickolaczyk got crucified when he thought he was entering into territorial negotiations in good faith in late 1944.
One can only assume the relative morality and sense of alliance of GB and Poland in those circumstances:
THE POMS KEPT THE POLES IN THEIR RANKS TO FIGHT FOR THEM WHILST KNOWING THAT THEY HAD STRUCK A DEAL WITH STALIN THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD TO THE POLES AS IT EFFECTIVELY DOOMED THEM TO SOVIET CONTROL.
I think it was Slessor who summed that piece of backstabbing nicely (and I take liberty with paraphrasing):
WE'VE BLED THE POLES DRY NOW WE INTEND TO CAST THEM ADRIFT
One of those bled dry under the British was my grand uncle. He wanted to return home but couldn't. Kind of sucks doesn't it? But I'm just a plastic Pole with no connection to the issues, aren't I? This coming from two Poms on a Polish forum, one of whom has no clearly identified link to anything Polish and another who wishes he had a Polish girlfriend.
You'll no doubt come back and say it was done to secure stability in the East, Russian co-operation, realpolitik necessities or a myriad of other excuses. Fair enough - however, a stab in the back is still the same whether it's delivered with an altrusitic riposte or a self serving lunge. Poles, and we plastic Poles, take issue with being stabbed - you take issue with us for doing that.
Should I and like minded posters be criticised, or should you?
Between the 3 or 4 of you, I'm sure you'll organise some half assed response. It's been my experience though that a group of Poms have trouble organising a piss up in a pub.
Oh, and gentlemen - before you spout off about Australia being a prison colony of England in trying to diminish my credit, I suggest you relate to the other members just how that came about and who came here - Ill start you off - Scots and Irish political prisoners, destitutes who stole loaves of bread to survive etc.
I'm proud of the 'convict culture', even though I'm not Anglo Saxon. You again seek to impress a negative connotation when the whole context shows differently. The egg (or in your instance, jellied eel) is on your faces. Learn from it.
Ozi Dan
2 Dec 2008
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
Then you will no doubt be aware of the Polish contribution.
Fair enough. You'll find a lot of that here, so you'll probably have to turn a blind eye.
I think you mean "Aussies and warm beer", or, more relevantly, "Poms and dental hygiene" or "Poms and sporting prowess". Where do I stop.
im quite familiar with ww2
Then you will no doubt be aware of the Polish contribution.
but find it pointless to argue the politics from that time
Fair enough. You'll find a lot of that here, so you'll probably have to turn a blind eye.
aussies and humour-two words that dont go :-)
I think you mean "Aussies and warm beer", or, more relevantly, "Poms and dental hygiene" or "Poms and sporting prowess". Where do I stop.
Ozi Dan
2 Dec 2008
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
Are you familiar with Polish history at this time? If not, I'd prefer you to make up your own mind after some independent research rather than me telling you.
Perhaps do a google search on this question. Look up "Anders army". It should be interesting and on point with your question. Also look up Polish 303 Squadron - very interesting.
Try reading books on Poland by Norman Davies too.
I'm an Aussie (Polish dad though, and I identify very strongly with my Polish heritage) - of course I love having a dig at the Poms. Aussies know how to get under their skin.
given that you are talking of ww2 then how was poland fighting for others?
Are you familiar with Polish history at this time? If not, I'd prefer you to make up your own mind after some independent research rather than me telling you.
Perhaps do a google search on this question. Look up "Anders army". It should be interesting and on point with your question. Also look up Polish 303 Squadron - very interesting.
Try reading books on Poland by Norman Davies too.
it seems to me that you like to have a dig at the british.
I'm an Aussie (Polish dad though, and I identify very strongly with my Polish heritage) - of course I love having a dig at the Poms. Aussies know how to get under their skin.
Ozi Dan
2 Dec 2008
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
In what sense?
Obviously if you're not of Polish extraction or have an interest in this type of topic then no.
Objectively, you should reread the question I posted at the beginning of the thread for the 'point'.
In what sense?
Obviously if you're not of Polish extraction or have an interest in this type of topic then no.
Objectively, you should reread the question I posted at the beginning of the thread for the 'point'.
Ozi Dan
2 Dec 2008
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
Neither bothered showing up? The communist government didn't. That is a fact.
The Government in Exile received an invite at the eleventh hour when it was apparent the commo govt wouldnt attend. It was, naturally, politely declined.
What self respecting invitee would accept a second thought last minute invite? One can only speculate as to the value GB/the allies placed on Poland's contributions to the war effort in these circumstances.
I recall you mentioning some Poles did attend. That was in their capacity as integrated member of the GB armed forces.
That context takes the gloss of your spin, doesn't it.
It's strange how your ilk deign to argue the finer points of an invitation if it gives the opportunity to try to cast a bad light on Poland. Keep it coming though - I enjoy the sport.
Remember the lesson given on fact vs opinion in a previous topic? I suggest you revisit. You again gave an opinion couched as a fact. In fact, you've given many opinions. In my opinion, some of the facts you have given have been bare facts, denied of context. As a wordsmith, you'd know it's disingenuous to assert facts without setting out the context.
In your circumstances however I'd suggest it seems malice drives your posts. Anyone with your powers of research would clearly be aware of the context. If you don't account for it, one can only speculate why.
Now, back to the topic. Have you got any examples on it? I would've thought you would have bombarded us with Wiki sourced earthshakers.
But the very simple fact still remains: both representatives of the free Poles and the official government of Poland were invited to the parade and neither bothered showing up.
Neither bothered showing up? The communist government didn't. That is a fact.
The Government in Exile received an invite at the eleventh hour when it was apparent the commo govt wouldnt attend. It was, naturally, politely declined.
What self respecting invitee would accept a second thought last minute invite? One can only speculate as to the value GB/the allies placed on Poland's contributions to the war effort in these circumstances.
I recall you mentioning some Poles did attend. That was in their capacity as integrated member of the GB armed forces.
That context takes the gloss of your spin, doesn't it.
It's strange how your ilk deign to argue the finer points of an invitation if it gives the opportunity to try to cast a bad light on Poland. Keep it coming though - I enjoy the sport.
Remember the lesson given on fact vs opinion in a previous topic? I suggest you revisit. You again gave an opinion couched as a fact. In fact, you've given many opinions. In my opinion, some of the facts you have given have been bare facts, denied of context. As a wordsmith, you'd know it's disingenuous to assert facts without setting out the context.
In your circumstances however I'd suggest it seems malice drives your posts. Anyone with your powers of research would clearly be aware of the context. If you don't account for it, one can only speculate why.
Now, back to the topic. Have you got any examples on it? I would've thought you would have bombarded us with Wiki sourced earthshakers.
Ozi Dan
1 Dec 2008
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
Isn't it odd that this topic turned out to be (again) a slanging match against Poland.
Not one person has come up with something that Poland got, except for some old Turkish weapons and good battle practice.
Perhaps that silence is really the answer - nothing.
I'll take a liberty here with Churchill by rephrasing one of his most well known quotes. I think it sums up Poland's historical situation aptly:
"never has so much been done by so many for so little"
Prove me wrong.
Isn't it odd that this topic turned out to be (again) a slanging match against Poland.
Not one person has come up with something that Poland got, except for some old Turkish weapons and good battle practice.
Perhaps that silence is really the answer - nothing.
I'll take a liberty here with Churchill by rephrasing one of his most well known quotes. I think it sums up Poland's historical situation aptly:
"never has so much been done by so many for so little"
Prove me wrong.
Ozi Dan
26 Nov 2008
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]
It's been said on the forum by a (thankfully) small percentage (mainly Poms) that some Poles whinge about being hard done by.
If that's the case, could someone point me to what Poland got (ie benefit, or simply commensurate consideration) out of the many wars and struggles that Poland participated in for the benefit of others?
(I've kept the parameters of the second paragraph pretty general, so feel free to respond in kind).
It's been said on the forum by a (thankfully) small percentage (mainly Poms) that some Poles whinge about being hard done by.
If that's the case, could someone point me to what Poland got (ie benefit, or simply commensurate consideration) out of the many wars and struggles that Poland participated in for the benefit of others?
(I've kept the parameters of the second paragraph pretty general, so feel free to respond in kind).
Ozi Dan
17 Nov 2008
Life / PATRIOTISM -- POLISH OR OTHERWISE? [23]
You'll forgive me for not responding to each point, but I found some a bit tiresome and self serving.
The old 'where did I say that' trick. The implication of what you say and who you say it to is pretty clear.
Not at all. What I do take offence to is people who don't understand the meaning of words/concepts and then try to tell other people what they think those words and concepts mean. Simple really.
Not at all. If you'd framed your argument in those types of constructive tones (rather than the sneering cynicism you seem to use) I'm sure I would have quietly read what you had to say and reflected on it.
Can I borrow these concluding remarks for my submissions to the bench?
If you can't handle the fact that some people won't accept what you say without challenge then you have a lot to learn.
Foreigner4
You'll forgive me for not responding to each point, but I found some a bit tiresome and self serving.
Really? Which nation did I address, can you show me where I wrote this?
The old 'where did I say that' trick. The implication of what you say and who you say it to is pretty clear.
You seem to take great offence that someone (in this case me) suggests you use a different term other than "pride" or "proud" for some feelings you have for something. Like as if it would really change how you feel about ____. Unless of course, you have chosen to attach your self worth to things that you had nothing to do with (blurring lines between self worth and accomplishments of others).
Not at all. What I do take offence to is people who don't understand the meaning of words/concepts and then try to tell other people what they think those words and concepts mean. Simple really.
Seriously is there something wrong with saying "I'm glad to be(insert nationality here) because of the great country my ancestors helped to build or the bravery they showed" instead of just saying i'm proud of (insert ancestor here)?"
Not at all. If you'd framed your argument in those types of constructive tones (rather than the sneering cynicism you seem to use) I'm sure I would have quietly read what you had to say and reflected on it.
Are you just too lazy to be specific or that much of a weak sister to tolerate another person entertaining ideas you can't figure out?
Perhaps the correct assumption is that you can't figure out the ideas that you entertain.
By the way, the onus is on you to be specific.
Now, I'd rather you just go away, if you've nothing to bring to the table other than pouting and emotional outbursts.
Perhaps the correct assumption is that you can't figure out the ideas that you entertain.
By the way, the onus is on you to be specific.
Now, I'd rather you just go away, if you've nothing to bring to the table other than pouting and emotional outbursts.
Can I borrow these concluding remarks for my submissions to the bench?
If you can't handle the fact that some people won't accept what you say without challenge then you have a lot to learn.
Ozi Dan
14 Nov 2008
Life / PATRIOTISM -- POLISH OR OTHERWISE? [23]
I thought I did, thus the second part of my last post which you seemed to have missed.
There's nothing much to analyse in any event - your argument seems to be that it's folly to be proud of something/someone etc that has no direct link to you. You frame that in a condescending way and have done so in previous threads/posts.
I think the greater folly is people like you trying to tell a nation of generally 'proud' people that they shouldn't be proud in the scenarios you set out.
Reread and reanalyze what i wrote previously in varying contexts and get back to me when you've done so.
I thought I did, thus the second part of my last post which you seemed to have missed.
There's nothing much to analyse in any event - your argument seems to be that it's folly to be proud of something/someone etc that has no direct link to you. You frame that in a condescending way and have done so in previous threads/posts.
I think the greater folly is people like you trying to tell a nation of generally 'proud' people that they shouldn't be proud in the scenarios you set out.
Ozi Dan
12 Nov 2008
Life / PATRIOTISM -- POLISH OR OTHERWISE? [23]
I thought we'd been through these issues many months prior.
Given your preoccupation with the notion of pride, don't you think your time would be better spent in personally analysing this fetish, rather than continuously soap boxing a flawed, subjective perspective.
I suspect this is where you are misleading yourself. Pride is not an analytical concept, capable of being rendered down to a definitive truth or formulaic answer. Because it is an emotional and psychological characteristic, labelled as pride, sense can't be made of it. It will always be subjective (both in terms of meaning and manifestation) and metaphysical (in respect of people probably never agreeing on what it is, what it should be and when someone is allowed to express of feel it).
If you counter by saying that it's just your opinion, then you do yourself and your argument little credit because youre effectively agreeing to the premise that pride is subjective in meaning and context because you're only offering an opinion rather than a factual and authoritative assertion.
If you counter by saying that you are offering a factual and authoritative assertion based on proveable foundations, then you again do little credit because your concept of pride is flawed in that pride can in fact be an expression of pleasure etc about something you or SOMEONE ELSE has done.
Not much of a choice, is it?
i think if you're "proud" of anything you (meaning anyone really) yourself haven't directly contributed to then you're severely lacking in analytical skills.
I thought we'd been through these issues many months prior.
Given your preoccupation with the notion of pride, don't you think your time would be better spent in personally analysing this fetish, rather than continuously soap boxing a flawed, subjective perspective.
Now you go and get some guy who says he's proud of what some other guy or gal did a looong time ago and, well, if you can't see how little sense that makes then i feel sorry for you.
I suspect this is where you are misleading yourself. Pride is not an analytical concept, capable of being rendered down to a definitive truth or formulaic answer. Because it is an emotional and psychological characteristic, labelled as pride, sense can't be made of it. It will always be subjective (both in terms of meaning and manifestation) and metaphysical (in respect of people probably never agreeing on what it is, what it should be and when someone is allowed to express of feel it).
If you counter by saying that it's just your opinion, then you do yourself and your argument little credit because youre effectively agreeing to the premise that pride is subjective in meaning and context because you're only offering an opinion rather than a factual and authoritative assertion.
If you counter by saying that you are offering a factual and authoritative assertion based on proveable foundations, then you again do little credit because your concept of pride is flawed in that pride can in fact be an expression of pleasure etc about something you or SOMEONE ELSE has done.
Not much of a choice, is it?
Ozi Dan
12 Nov 2008
History / Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death [43]
Even if no decisive conclusions are reached, it'll be cathartic.
If justice cant be done, at least there needs to be an appearance of it being done.
I dont see how, it will just fuel more conspiracy stories.
Leave the dead alone.
Leave the dead alone.
Even if no decisive conclusions are reached, it'll be cathartic.
If justice cant be done, at least there needs to be an appearance of it being done.
Ozi Dan
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]
Don't be silly. Not just from TV and cinema. You seem to forget that most of the participants on this forum have Polish relatives, some of whom went through the war and witnessed first hand German niceties. These details are usually passed on.
After TV and Cinema you would think they were all baby killers and rapists....
Don't be silly. Not just from TV and cinema. You seem to forget that most of the participants on this forum have Polish relatives, some of whom went through the war and witnessed first hand German niceties. These details are usually passed on.
Ozi Dan
8 Nov 2008
Genealogy / Need info on my Russianized/Ukrainianized last name. [25]
Dr Fischer was the Nazi governor of Warsaw during WW2. Execution notices were put up and he ratified them.
I suspect the organisation was the AK, or Polish Home Army.
I dont have info on where these people moved.
YOu should read Rising 44 or God's Playground both by Norman Davies. These books are pretty much the authority on Polish history.
So does anybody have any more info for me. Especially about my last post.
Dr Fischer was the Nazi governor of Warsaw during WW2. Execution notices were put up and he ratified them.
I suspect the organisation was the AK, or Polish Home Army.
I dont have info on where these people moved.
YOu should read Rising 44 or God's Playground both by Norman Davies. These books are pretty much the authority on Polish history.
Ozi Dan
3 Nov 2008
Genealogy / Need info on my Russianized/Ukrainianized last name. [25]
My pleasure - sorry to bring bad news if he was a relative. He was a 'member of a secret organisation' according to the notice posted by Dr Fischer.
I have a list of several thousand Polish persons executed in Warsaw from 1939-1944. I started a thread on that but no one seemed interested. If I see a name sometimes I'll go and look it up.
Helena Paszkowska (b 15.3.1898) shot in the Pawiak either 20 or 21 June 1940. Reprisal killing.
nobody
My pleasure - sorry to bring bad news if he was a relative. He was a 'member of a secret organisation' according to the notice posted by Dr Fischer.
I have a list of several thousand Polish persons executed in Warsaw from 1939-1944. I started a thread on that but no one seemed interested. If I see a name sometimes I'll go and look it up.
Helena Paszkowska (b 15.3.1898) shot in the Pawiak either 20 or 21 June 1940. Reprisal killing.