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PATRIOTISM -- POLISH OR OTHERWISE?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448  
11 Nov 2008 /  #1
The 11th November Independence Day holiday in Poland, this year marking the 90th anniversary of Poland's re-emergencer as an indpedendent state after 123 of foreign occupation, has generated a media discussion on patriotism. Leftist, liberal and archo-libertine types usually distance themselves from it, calling it an archaic concept and often equating it with nationalism and chauvinism which are only a step away from xenophobia. At the opposite pole (no pun intended!), conservatives regard patriotism as something worthwhile, the love of and healthy pride in one's homeland, its history and cultrual heriatge -- a timeless value that should passed down to the younger generation. What are teh itnermediate options between those two extremes? What do you think?
Babinich 1 | 455  
11 Nov 2008 /  #2
When is love for your country and pride in your country's history and culture an extreme?

To be Polish is to be proud; celebrate that freedom and all those who sacrificed their lives to attain it.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769  
11 Nov 2008 /  #3
i think if you're "proud" of anything you (meaning anyone really) yourself haven't directly contributed to then you're severely lacking in analytical skills.

Patriotism: i feel people confuse or rather blur the distinctions between reverence, admiration and esteem with personal accomplishment and self worth. Patriotism is a very specific thing but people are quite lazy in how the define it and act out being "patriotic." So in the end, "patriotism" is healthy but with all notions and concepts, people have a way warping these things to negative extremes.

happy independence day
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
11 Nov 2008 /  #4
Patriotism is concerned with being loyal and proud of what your country represents. Poles have a right to be patriotic. They resisted oppression and fought noble causes most of the time.
dcchris 8 | 432  
11 Nov 2008 /  #5
Poles should be proud and celebrate independence day. It give other countries such as Tibet hope for the future.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448  
11 Nov 2008 /  #6
Speaking at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Warsaw on the 90th annviersary of Poland's re-emergence in 1918, President Lech Kaczynski said: "Nationalism and, even more so, chauvisim, derives from hatred. Patriotism derives from love, from a sense of identification with a community, from a community of culture and history. Such patriotism was needed then (90 yrs ago), and it is equally needed today."
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
11 Nov 2008 /  #7
Is this KaczyƄski speaking some sense for once? I can't believe it.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
11 Nov 2008 /  #8
i think if you're "proud" of anything you (meaning anyone really) yourself haven't directly contributed to then you're severely lacking in analytical skills.

That postulate fails in case of entire nations. With so many aspects to nationhood, with so many people required to define and execute its achievements and to overcome its failures, most individuals who did not fail the national objectives have a reason to be proud. The of input an individual input may be very small its importance is in numbers. Just ask any general.

A notions history and character may be driven by a few but it's made possible by many. Anyone with truly analytical skills will recognize that.
wildrover 98 | 4,451  
11 Nov 2008 /  #9
There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country , i am proud of England , my country , as well as having a pride in being a resident of Poland...Sadly being proud of your country is taken to extremes by a minority of nutters who see it as an excuse to be racist....It makes me bloody angry that flying an English flag above my home in the UK would have me labeled as a national front supporter , and no doubt upset Asian people around me....Its the flag of my country for gods sake , one i fought and was prepared to die for , and for the Asians born in the UK its their flag too...The only time i felt able to fly an English flag was on my Landrover during a trip to Poland , Belarus , and Russia , ironic that flying an English flag in Russia caused less of a problem than it would in my country..!

Now i live on my farm in Poland i feel once again happy to fly an English flag above my home , i also have a Polish flag flying despite the fact i have been told its not legal to have it on display apart from special days , but nobody , including the Police seem to have a problem with this....

It saddens me that some young Polish people seem to be ashamed of their country , i was many times told by my students that Poland is no good , and they see only leaving Poland as the way to a good life , many were unaware of the things that Poland has reason to be proud of , the many heroic deeds of Polands soldiers , airmen , and sailors during the war came as a suprise to them when i told them about this....

Many of them were astounded that an English person would want to live in Poland , and i was constantly asked why i was here... Read your history Polish people , be proud to be Polish....I believe that Poland has a great future in Europe , the fact that Poland exists at all is reason to be proud., go out and wave the flag...!
Michal2 - | 78  
11 Nov 2008 /  #10
ationalism and chauvinism which are only a step away from

I think that the Polish, on the whole, are a racist lot but they hid it behind patriotism in the form of the Roman Catholic Church. After all, who dares to stand up against God and the Virgin Mary? The Poles are quite 'clever' on this touchy issue. A funny lot really, the Poles, all go to church on the Sunday morning falling down on the ground in from of the alter but five minutes later, drunk, they would walk over your body lying in the street. If you were having a heart attack in Poland, nobody would stop to help. In Germany or Sweden certainly, but would has any time for anybody in Poland of all places?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448  
11 Nov 2008 /  #11
I've heard it said of the Welsh that they pray on their knees on Sunday and on their neighbours the rest of the week!
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769  
11 Nov 2008 /  #12
z_darius

without you knowing what specific examples i was referring to, you're really off base. But reiterate my initial statement more clearly, if one wants to be proud of something they didn't affect or couldn't have affected due to things like time then it shows a lack of introspection and analysis. Having said that

in the end, "patriotism" is healthy....

So you want to be proud of your country? hey bud, have at er and spread the positive vibes!

You want to be proud you are " " great but to me that's like somebody saying they're proud to have " " colour of eyes. I still wish luck with that but being proud of what you were born as and had no choice in is rather silly to me.

Now you go and get some guy who says he's proud of what some other guy or gal did a looong time ago and, well, if you can't see how little sense that makes then i feel sorry for you.

But to end on a positive note, I helped push a family's car tonight and gave them a jumper boost and then wished them a Happy Independence Day and everyone smiled.

The end.
Sklodowski - | 1  
11 Nov 2008 /  #13
What about Poles from other countries? Are we still Polish? Can we still call ourselves Polish? Or further still, what if we are mixed Polish? My mother is Polish and my father was Native American and part Irish and black. Am I still Polish, or would I be rejected?
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
11 Nov 2008 /  #14
without you knowing what specific examples i was referring to, you're really off base.

There were no specific examples. You painted with a very wide brush. This is what you wrote (emphasis mine):

i think if you're"proud" of anything you (meaning anyonereally) yourself haven't directly contributed to then...

"anything" easily includes pride of one's country. "anyone" may too (read on).

Now you go and get some guy who says he's proud of what some other guy or gal did a looong time ago and, well, if you can't see how little sense that makes then i feel sorry for you.

No need to fell sorry for me. Thank you for your concern though.

Never did I say anything about a person;s pride for events from remote past, did I?

Nations were not defined long time ago. That's when they started being defined, and the process continues to this day. It will continue tomorrow, for those nations which survive. Anybody participation in that nation's life perpetuates its character and contributes to it, even if only in the minutest of ways. That's what makes people proud why they are a part of one nation or the other.

A glaring example is parent's pride of their child's achievements. The parents may be feeble but their son may be a general, they may be illiterate but their daughter is a leading scientist in some discipline. What have they done to be proud? Fed her? Big deal. That's what parents do, right?

Another example. I live in Canada. I am proud of various Canadian, smaller or greater, reasons for pride. Canadian hockey team is one of the best. I am proud of it even though I do not play hockey. Heck, I can't skate at all. But I pay taxes here, and those taxes cover the costs of minor hockey leagues, local hockey arenas and such.

I dunno how else I could explain this simple really concept, so you don't have to feel so sad on the account of feeling pity for me.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
12 Nov 2008 /  #15
i think if you're "proud" of anything you (meaning anyone really) yourself haven't directly contributed to then you're severely lacking in analytical skills.

I thought we'd been through these issues many months prior.

Given your preoccupation with the notion of pride, don't you think your time would be better spent in personally analysing this fetish, rather than continuously soap boxing a flawed, subjective perspective.

Now you go and get some guy who says he's proud of what some other guy or gal did a looong time ago and, well, if you can't see how little sense that makes then i feel sorry for you.

I suspect this is where you are misleading yourself. Pride is not an analytical concept, capable of being rendered down to a definitive truth or formulaic answer. Because it is an emotional and psychological characteristic, labelled as pride, sense can't be made of it. It will always be subjective (both in terms of meaning and manifestation) and metaphysical (in respect of people probably never agreeing on what it is, what it should be and when someone is allowed to express of feel it).

If you counter by saying that it's just your opinion, then you do yourself and your argument little credit because youre effectively agreeing to the premise that pride is subjective in meaning and context because you're only offering an opinion rather than a factual and authoritative assertion.

If you counter by saying that you are offering a factual and authoritative assertion based on proveable foundations, then you again do little credit because your concept of pride is flawed in that pride can in fact be an expression of pleasure etc about something you or SOMEONE ELSE has done.

Not much of a choice, is it?
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769  
12 Nov 2008 /  #16
I thought we'd been through these issues many months prior.

wow it's like i wasn't addressing you at all...

Given your preoccupation with the notion of pride, don't you think your time would be better spent in personally analysing this fetish, rather than continuously soap boxing a flawed, subjective perspective.

...so take your own advice....oh wait, it's a message board, we generally post things we've thought about (personally analyzed), no? Hey look at that, i beat you to the punch and did exactly what you wrote i should do, before you wrote it.

Reread and reanalyze what i wrote previously in varying contexts and get back to me when you've done so.
Good luck.

There were no specific examples. You painted with a very wide brush.

Quite true, I was thinking of specific things but was far too unmotivated to go them. You seem to be as sharp as they come so I'm sure you could think of instances where people claim to be proud of things but when asked "why" really can't come up with anything that makes sense. When you do come up with those instances then perhaps you'll get what i had written.

"anything" easily includes pride of one's country.

Yeah I think I get your point but again if someone hasn't really contributed squat to something then how can they be proud of it? It'd be like me saying I'm proud to be Norwegian even though i don't contribute to what makes norway so great. Or if i said i take pride in what the early scandanavian explorers did, like as though i had anything to do with it. It's a stupid way of thinking imo and fails all logical criticism.

And if somebody asked me, "hey f4, why are you so proud to be norwegian?" Wtf would i even say, "uh cause i was born there? and grew up there and lived my life like your average norwegian" wtf kind of answer is that?

A glaring example is parent's pride of their child's achievements. The parents may be feeble but their son may be a general, they may be illiterate but their daughter is a leading scientist in some discipline. What have they done to be proud? Fed her? Big deal. That's what parents do, right?

I agree with your idea and would argue parents contribute (as a rule) much more to what their children become than simply feed them.

Another example. I live in Canada. I am proud of various Canadian, smaller or greater, reasons for pride. Canadian hockey team is one of the best. I am proud of it even though I do not play hockey. Heck, I can't skate at all. But I pay taxes here, and those taxes cover the costs of minor hockey leagues, local hockey arenas and such.

preposterous sir, you have no choices as to where your tax dollars go it's none of your doing. Why would you be proud of the team, what have you done to make a difference?

Here in Poland, when the football team wins, everyone proclaims, "we won" but when they lose, everyone proclaims "they lost."

To put this another way, should you feel shame if Canadian mining companies operating abroad abuse local workers? If your local junior hockey team (whl or ohl?) acts like complete morons at a local bar? Should you be ashamed of what the RCMP did in Vancouver? Or should you be disgusted and outraged? and Why?

Keep in mind in one way or another your tax dollars probably affect each entity mentioned but you get almost no say in the matter.

Seriously thanks for your insight and questions, i like the way you approach debates in general.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
14 Nov 2008 /  #17
Reread and reanalyze what i wrote previously in varying contexts and get back to me when you've done so.

I thought I did, thus the second part of my last post which you seemed to have missed.

There's nothing much to analyse in any event - your argument seems to be that it's folly to be proud of something/someone etc that has no direct link to you. You frame that in a condescending way and have done so in previous threads/posts.

I think the greater folly is people like you trying to tell a nation of generally 'proud' people that they shouldn't be proud in the scenarios you set out.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769  
14 Nov 2008 /  #18
I thought I did

you thought wrong. I wrote "reread" and "reanalyze" which means do it again after the last time you did it.

your argument seems to be that it's folly to be proud of something/someone etc that has no direct link to you.

Didn't i write one might revere, admire, aspire to or use as inspiration that particular something/someone?

In fact i wrote that these are better terms to use as i feel pride is reserved for those things you yourself have done or tried to do.

i feel people confuse or rather blur the distinctions between reverence, admiration and esteem with personal accomplishment and self worth.

Seriously what's so hard to understand about the above and why get so bent out of shape about it?

I think the greater folly is people like you trying to tell a nation of generally 'proud' people that they shouldn't be proud in the scenarios you set out.

Really? Which nation did I address, can you show me where I wrote this?
No?
Ok then, it looks like you're just making stuff up.
Breathe in, breathe out, calm down and try thinking rationaly.

Clearly reading comprehension is not something you've any talent for:
A question was posed on the internet, i responded as the op seemed to have asked for opinions. That's it.

You seem to take great offence that someone (in this case me) suggests you use a different term other than "pride" or "proud" for some feelings you have for something. Like as if it would really change how you feel about ____. Unless of course, you have chosen to attach your self worth to things that you had nothing to do with (blurring lines between self worth and accomplishments of others).

Seriously is there something wrong with saying "I'm glad to be(insert nationality here) because of the great country my ancestors helped to build or the bravery they showed" instead of just saying i'm proud of (insert ancestor here)?"

Is it so awful to say "I really respect and admire so and so from the past and aspire to be like them" instead of saying you're "proud to be (nationality) because (insert historical figure[s]) was/were (insert nationality) too?"

Is it so offensive to you to suggest "pride" be reserved for those people who have done something worth a lick and more than just be born?

Are you just too lazy to be specific or that much of a weak sister to tolerate another person entertaining ideas you can't figure out?

Now, I'd rather you just go away, if you've nothing to bring to the table other than pouting and emotional outbursts.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
17 Nov 2008 /  #19
Foreigner4

You'll forgive me for not responding to each point, but I found some a bit tiresome and self serving.

Really? Which nation did I address, can you show me where I wrote this?

The old 'where did I say that' trick. The implication of what you say and who you say it to is pretty clear.

You seem to take great offence that someone (in this case me) suggests you use a different term other than "pride" or "proud" for some feelings you have for something. Like as if it would really change how you feel about ____. Unless of course, you have chosen to attach your self worth to things that you had nothing to do with (blurring lines between self worth and accomplishments of others).

Not at all. What I do take offence to is people who don't understand the meaning of words/concepts and then try to tell other people what they think those words and concepts mean. Simple really.

Seriously is there something wrong with saying "I'm glad to be(insert nationality here) because of the great country my ancestors helped to build or the bravery they showed" instead of just saying i'm proud of (insert ancestor here)?"

Not at all. If you'd framed your argument in those types of constructive tones (rather than the sneering cynicism you seem to use) I'm sure I would have quietly read what you had to say and reflected on it.

Are you just too lazy to be specific or that much of a weak sister to tolerate another person entertaining ideas you can't figure out?

Perhaps the correct assumption is that you can't figure out the ideas that you entertain.

By the way, the onus is on you to be specific.

Now, I'd rather you just go away, if you've nothing to bring to the table other than pouting and emotional outbursts.

Can I borrow these concluding remarks for my submissions to the bench?

If you can't handle the fact that some people won't accept what you say without challenge then you have a lot to learn.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769  
17 Nov 2008 /  #20
The old 'where did I say that' trick. The implication of what you say and who you say it to is pretty clear.

sorry the burden is on the accuser so put up or shut up.

Not at all. What I do take offence to is people who don't understand the meaning of words/concepts and then try to tell other people what they think those words and concepts mean. Simple really.

So simple, yet you have no problem doing what you accuse me of at the drop of a hat.

If you'd framed your argument in those types of constructive tones (rather than the sneering cynicism you seem to use) I'm sure I would have quietly read what you had to say and reflected on it.

Had you just asked for clarification at the outset or thought about it a bit more then you'd have avoided this waste of time.

The thing is, I wasn't addressing anyone in particular, you didn't see me jump down someone else's throat just because i may not have agreed with what they wrote on the topic.

Regarding this "sneering cynicism," look buddy, you're projecting far too much of your imagination into this. Ask a question get an answer, pick a quarrel and get one, why are you moaning at the turn this has taken given your approach?

Can I borrow these concluding remarks for my submissions to the bench?

If you can't handle the fact that some people won't accept what you say without challenge then you have a lot to learn.

Well who doesn't have a lot to learn? Anyway borrow them all you want cause you wrote half of them and then quoted it all under my screen name;)

But I digress, why didn't you just post your remarks up to the one who asked for everyone's opinion?

Instead, you chose to pick an argument with me for no other reason than you didn't like what wasn't addressed to you in the first place. Why?

You didn't ask for clarification, you didn't ask for any further specification but instead used a tactless approach trying to set out my own opinion for me. Why?

Never mind. I don't care if you don't accept what i had to say cause it was never put out there for you to or not to accept.

If it's easier for you to get into an argument than attempt to understand something then your little words of wisdom are rather ironic.

Ok, bye now.
*sneers at ozi dan*
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
17 Nov 2008 /  #21
Patriotism in Scotland has become more widespread since the re-opening of the Scottish Government.
St Andrews Day is now a Bank Holiday and the Government fund St Andrews day celebrations. There are a lot more saltires flying on buildings now than there was before.
koziolek 2 | 31  
17 Nov 2008 /  #22
i think if you're "proud" of anything you (meaning anyone really) yourself haven't directly contributed to then you're severely lacking in analytical skills.

Patriotism is concerned with being loyal and proud of what your country represents.

I am loyal to myself. I am a product of my country, and as such, my country should be proud of me, for I am one of my country's great achievements.

I'm not proud of anything I haven't personally acheived. I can be appreciative and respectful, but I will not blindly follow.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769  
17 Nov 2008 /  #23
ah the lofty goat, i am humbled by your presence:)
*assumes stance of reverence*

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