Ironside
21 May 2009
Ironside
21 May 2009
History / Germans Exiles & Museum in Berlin in the eyes of Poles and UE nationals. [106]
Seems to me that most of the Poles and EU nationals don't care much about the issue.
I think that Germans can build and write history whatever and anyway they like, though they shouldn't be surprised if others do likewise.
It's essence of freedom which is limited by consequences.
In my opinion that action is motivated by the desire to get back land lost to Poland, so be it!
Get lost !
You crippled little bastard !
Seems to me that most of the Poles and EU nationals don't care much about the issue.
I think that Germans can build and write history whatever and anyway they like, though they shouldn't be surprised if others do likewise.
It's essence of freedom which is limited by consequences.
In my opinion that action is motivated by the desire to get back land lost to Poland, so be it!
Get lost !
You crippled little bastard !
Ironside
21 May 2009
History / Germans Exiles & Museum in Berlin in the eyes of Poles and UE nationals. [106]
The Conference of Potsdam after WWII decided that all Germans from the territories given to Poland and from other country's from the Eastern Europe should be deported.
There were about 12 millions Germans kick out during two years after war and about 2 millions died as result of dislocation, there are claims of forced marshes but historians are taking into account that German population from those territories were fleeing from the advancing Red Army, and estimate number of exiled Germans at 7 millions, about 3 from the present territory of Poland.
Association of Exiles was created after war by Germans displaced as a result of Potsdam decisions, that organization played down by German politician as radical and unimportant part of German political scene.They main claims were up to the point - restoration of the German borders from 1937.
Lately with ascendancy of second generation of "exiles" in the German politics something has changed, idea of commemorating Germans victims of war transformed into project to create museum of the exiles in Berlin.
That project promoted by the controversial Erika Steinbach (born on the territory incorporated to III Reich during WWII as daughter of German officer, in the flat which belonged to the polish family kicked out by victorious III Reich, standard in such a cases they were given two hours get out!) one of the leaders and activist in the exiles organization.
There was general hysteria in Poland and strong (words) against that project, though it was mostly media.
I wonder what is real opinion on the subject of Poles and others nationalities too, as we are one big happy family in the EU.
To prove it example of German music which I really enjoy:
youtube.com/watch?v=V92OBNsQgxU
The Conference of Potsdam after WWII decided that all Germans from the territories given to Poland and from other country's from the Eastern Europe should be deported.
There were about 12 millions Germans kick out during two years after war and about 2 millions died as result of dislocation, there are claims of forced marshes but historians are taking into account that German population from those territories were fleeing from the advancing Red Army, and estimate number of exiled Germans at 7 millions, about 3 from the present territory of Poland.
Association of Exiles was created after war by Germans displaced as a result of Potsdam decisions, that organization played down by German politician as radical and unimportant part of German political scene.They main claims were up to the point - restoration of the German borders from 1937.
Lately with ascendancy of second generation of "exiles" in the German politics something has changed, idea of commemorating Germans victims of war transformed into project to create museum of the exiles in Berlin.
That project promoted by the controversial Erika Steinbach (born on the territory incorporated to III Reich during WWII as daughter of German officer, in the flat which belonged to the polish family kicked out by victorious III Reich, standard in such a cases they were given two hours get out!) one of the leaders and activist in the exiles organization.
There was general hysteria in Poland and strong (words) against that project, though it was mostly media.
I wonder what is real opinion on the subject of Poles and others nationalities too, as we are one big happy family in the EU.
To prove it example of German music which I really enjoy:
youtube.com/watch?v=V92OBNsQgxU
Ironside
20 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
Since when you are answering questions Nathan?
If you had come froward and admitted ethnic cleansing without looking for excuses we would have different discussions from the beginning.
I have notice that you did not answer my question or issues I was addressing instead, you were ranting for pages insulting me personally. Furthermore You often keep going on and is difficult to understand what you are after.
Last time you have taken out of context my say addressed to pawian, easy to pick on ?
Have you answered to any issue I write about in #210? No!
avoidance Nathan?
I condemned any wrongdoings during 1920-1939 on the part of polish government and I wont repeat myself, as you're still clinging to the idea that massacres in Wolyn wasn't fault of the Ukrainians or/and they had been justified in their deeds by the policy of polish government.
Also you believe that any action taken by Poles in the way of retaliations, erases in a sense Ukrainian guilt and responsibility - and I strongly disagree!
I know that similar view are held in what is now called wester Ukraine, in the center or east Ukrainians have different opinions at the issue.
As for BB I'm asking questions to know exactly what he means before I'll answer.
BB bulged into our discussion and immediately started slandering off Poles and taking sides as if he knew anything about the subject.
And then puff ! he is gone!His helmet must be uncomfortable.
So, as long as you cling to your very narrow views what is to be discussed? You tell me, but pls no more rants and lectures about poor moi !
As always - avoidance, avoidance, avoidance of answering questions and shooting short sentences which often miss meaning.
Since when you are answering questions Nathan?
If you had come froward and admitted ethnic cleansing without looking for excuses we would have different discussions from the beginning.
I have notice that you did not answer my question or issues I was addressing instead, you were ranting for pages insulting me personally. Furthermore You often keep going on and is difficult to understand what you are after.
Last time you have taken out of context my say addressed to pawian, easy to pick on ?
Have you answered to any issue I write about in #210? No!
avoidance Nathan?
I condemned any wrongdoings during 1920-1939 on the part of polish government and I wont repeat myself, as you're still clinging to the idea that massacres in Wolyn wasn't fault of the Ukrainians or/and they had been justified in their deeds by the policy of polish government.
Also you believe that any action taken by Poles in the way of retaliations, erases in a sense Ukrainian guilt and responsibility - and I strongly disagree!
I know that similar view are held in what is now called wester Ukraine, in the center or east Ukrainians have different opinions at the issue.
As for BB I'm asking questions to know exactly what he means before I'll answer.
BB bulged into our discussion and immediately started slandering off Poles and taking sides as if he knew anything about the subject.
And then puff ! he is gone!His helmet must be uncomfortable.
So, as long as you cling to your very narrow views what is to be discussed? You tell me, but pls no more rants and lectures about poor moi !
Ironside
19 May 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]
What happed to "germans" from that territory? ah wait they went for a field trip to Galia and Africa
Yes Sokrates, the Slavs were the late comer, they wandered westwards into germanic land, every history book will tell you that!
What happed to "germans" from that territory? ah wait they went for a field trip to Galia and Africa
Ironside
19 May 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]
Not German - Prussian
The greatest mistake of Kingdom of Poland was to help to create Prussian state!
Our cultures and people lived for millennia now side by side and I don't buy that "big bad german monster" what is always out to eat polish babies if I'm honest!
Not German - Prussian
The greatest mistake of Kingdom of Poland was to help to create Prussian state!
Ironside
19 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
No you don't I'm not going to believe that even for a second if you mean it you would have said that at the beginning.
Now, you want only to project you "goody" image!
Don't you have such a conception in Germany ?
Really? Well, just wait a sec cause some light from behind is blinding me!:))
I heard but I'm asking what exactly do you want to remember?
And who is responsible?
There plenty of other to chose from :
Rommel, Von Stauffenberg etc
But of curse! Can you be more specific ?
I hope sometime a comity will be created that won't be investigating "then" and "in light of" as you propose ;)
No you don't I'm not going to believe that even for a second if you mean it you would have said that at the beginning.
Now, you want only to project you "goody" image!
So there is self criticism in Poland???
Don't you have such a conception in Germany ?
...not with these words :)
Really? Well, just wait a sec cause some light from behind is blinding me!:))
Don't tell me you never heard of the being build center against expellations and the whole bruhaha with Poland?
I heard but I'm asking what exactly do you want to remember?
The millions expelled and killed during the forced marches! (12 millions of them being Germans)
And who is responsible?
Only when you believe that Hitler is widely seen as a hero...do you ?
There plenty of other to chose from :
Rommel, Von Stauffenberg etc
Any wrong doings
But of curse! Can you be more specific ?
Ironside
19 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
No surprises there ... so we understand each other ... good.
not at all - logical !
And exactly what do you want to remember?
Admission of what?
Did I said that?
Learn polish and you will have plenty material for your lectures.
This is the only thing I understood from what you said, Ironside :)
No surprises there ... so we understand each other ... good.
lame
not at all - logical !
Reading this thread I'm just mightily reminded about the hate and venom spitting Poles since the first plans were made public to remember the millions forcefully expelled.
And exactly what do you want to remember?
If we would had waited for any admission
Admission of what?
Is there anything Poles would ever admit besides being genetically brave and good and upstanding and having the sun shining out of their arses???
Did I said that?
I never read such a thing...
Learn polish and you will have plenty material for your lectures.
Ironside
19 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
You should do the same BB there is place in Berlin for bronze statue of Her Hitler or whomever from the long list of the Fallen Heroes of the III Reich .
Well, no more then French and British, don't you think that there should be distinctions between wrongdoings in the times of war and totally bad ideology and means to achieve it?
Nathan should have said that matter should be investigated by joined Polish-Ukrainian comity and promise that guilty will be punish or they memory.
And then in the light of previous massacres the comity could investigate also Ukrainian grievances ( from XX century).
BB Nathan is not honest with his declarations, basically he is saying that:
Well, those massacres were not good but Poles because of they deeds(imagined or real) deserved it and at lets not talk about as Poland should support Ukraine just because.. and anyway Poles killed Ukrainians too, so lets it be nulled but I will take all the toys.Thats fair - You should be fair Ironside you oaf and loser.
What can I say ?
Пішов на хуй?
Anyway I'm surprised BB - et tu Brute ?!
Am I wrong?
Honor your Heroes and remember your dead regardless what they say!
You should do the same BB there is place in Berlin for bronze statue of Her Hitler or whomever from the long list of the Fallen Heroes of the III Reich .
I don't think the Poles are ready for it yet. Still clinging to their goody-two-shoes image!
Well, no more then French and British, don't you think that there should be distinctions between wrongdoings in the times of war and totally bad ideology and means to achieve it?
Nathan should have said that matter should be investigated by joined Polish-Ukrainian comity and promise that guilty will be punish or they memory.
And then in the light of previous massacres the comity could investigate also Ukrainian grievances ( from XX century).
BB Nathan is not honest with his declarations, basically he is saying that:
Well, those massacres were not good but Poles because of they deeds(imagined or real) deserved it and at lets not talk about as Poland should support Ukraine just because.. and anyway Poles killed Ukrainians too, so lets it be nulled but I will take all the toys.Thats fair - You should be fair Ironside you oaf and loser.
What can I say ?
Пішов на хуй?
Anyway I'm surprised BB - et tu Brute ?!
Ironside
19 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
Sure, hand in hand you have a practice boys!
Go for it!
Ukraine shouldn't wait for Poland to admit something but just go forward like Germany does too (center).
Sure, hand in hand you have a practice boys!
Go for it!
Ironside
19 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
I think our government will recognize massacres in XX century, when Ukrainian admit they are Aztec!
There no point to take you seriously anymore, I just wonder how many Ukrainians share your biased and distorted views.
Do you know what fair means?
I think our government will recognize massacres in XX century, when Ukrainian admit they are Aztec!
There no point to take you seriously anymore, I just wonder how many Ukrainians share your biased and distorted views.
Do you know what fair means?
Ironside
19 May 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]
Whats lands and whatdya mean 800?
Deny the german history of these lands all you want...800 years!
Whats lands and whatdya mean 800?
Ironside
19 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
Well, everyone should be thankful for that, you are very generous.
Sure, and eastern Germany should rightfully belong to Poland(Crow and you are in the same league).
I concur there is nothing better like good ethnic cleansing.
I see you don't wish to have government which would have been doing it's duty, working in interest of Poland.
Duly noted!
Excuse me but those Ukrainians were forming terrorist organizations with the foreign governments help, and they were planing to rebel and that territory of Poland was never part of any Ukraine in any sense.
So if Mexican in Michigan will feel like it they should be granted right to form independent state Aztec ?! According to your logic they should but nobody sane would agree!
I am not against the discussion about massacres. I want Ukrainian leaders state clearly that massacres were criminal acts.
Well, everyone should be thankful for that, you are very generous.
But I also want Poles to acknowledge that for centuries they conducted a policy of colonization in Ukraine
Sure, and eastern Germany should rightfully belong to Poland(Crow and you are in the same league).
the polonization methods used before the war were a grave mistake.
I concur there is nothing better like good ethnic cleansing.
And God save us from a really Polish government...:):):):):)
I see you don't wish to have government which would have been doing it's duty, working in interest of Poland.
Duly noted!
Excuse me but this in only a more brutal version of what Polish leaders thought and said about Ukrainians before the war.
Excuse me but those Ukrainians were forming terrorist organizations with the foreign governments help, and they were planing to rebel and that territory of Poland was never part of any Ukraine in any sense.
So if Mexican in Michigan will feel like it they should be granted right to form independent state Aztec ?! According to your logic they should but nobody sane would agree!
Ironside
19 May 2009
News / Nobility / Aristocracy in Poland ? [92]
Check again.( examples only Czartoryski, Zamoyski )
Maybe you are not of Polish nobility after all?!
Check again.( examples only Czartoryski, Zamoyski )
Maybe you are not of Polish nobility after all?!
Ironside
19 May 2009
News / Polish priest publishes sex guide [97]
You should read it then.
So according to you book about sex should be written by prostitute.?
youtube.com/watch?v=EpuYoK6wv_Y
I am curious as to how helpful this book could be to a couple experiencing problems in the bedroom. It is after all written by a celibate man.
You should read it then.
So according to you book about sex should be written by prostitute.?
youtube.com/watch?v=EpuYoK6wv_Y
Ironside
18 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
But the issues include also border. You saying that we can talk over about everything and then you make preconditions. All mean All!
You might ask why!
It's very simple, border between our country's were drown by Stalin.
You are happy with it I'm not - I think there is ground for discussion.
Next, property left by Poles in the Ukraine.
Question of the Wolyn massacres - are you going to face up responsibility or look for excuses ?
Thats all "problematic" issues in the relations between Ukraine and Poland as I see it!
As for pawian he is
a dreamer not to be reckon with, because sooner or later those question will have to be answered.
So far politicians in Poland are self serving bastards but any government being "really" polish will address those issues.
Nathan it is reality and those issues are real, so stop claiming that I'm some kind of chauvinist or something.
Well, of course you can ignore it as some immaterial ramblings of loony but you know better.
Sure, tell me the issues you have and we will talk them over. Please, don't make them about territories, because the borders will stay the way they are. UPA-AK issue we also dealt with, i hope. If there are any other ones - it will be a pleasure to discuss, Ironside.
But the issues include also border. You saying that we can talk over about everything and then you make preconditions. All mean All!
You might ask why!
It's very simple, border between our country's were drown by Stalin.
You are happy with it I'm not - I think there is ground for discussion.
Next, property left by Poles in the Ukraine.
Question of the Wolyn massacres - are you going to face up responsibility or look for excuses ?
Thats all "problematic" issues in the relations between Ukraine and Poland as I see it!
As for pawian he is
a dreamer not to be reckon with, because sooner or later those question will have to be answered.
So far politicians in Poland are self serving bastards but any government being "really" polish will address those issues.
Nathan it is reality and those issues are real, so stop claiming that I'm some kind of chauvinist or something.
Well, of course you can ignore it as some immaterial ramblings of loony but you know better.
Ironside
18 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
Elites at the time were no different from those in Europe.
Point is they had no partner to talk to, as all the local nobility considered themselves as part of the Commonwealth no some peasants or cossacks.
Local aristocracy choose Crown.
I think you are not able to understand times you talk about, seeing it in the light of modern standards.
It's past long forgotten, what about our land back?
Right now Ukraine is a mess , nobody knows what will happen.It dream.
Well, first of all Ukraine should chose it way and so far is impossible to guess future direction of that country, Poland is not in the position to do something and Nathan could say that it is imposing .......
Really good relations should be built on mutual interests and understanding.
[quote=Nathan][/quote]
You always takl about colanisation and ......lots of things I don't agree
You don't offer any argument only facts interpreted in the light of your views, and you are saying that we should working together , fine but some issue from the past should be make clear,
Have you been to the Ukraine at all and for how long?
I wonder if your views are representative ......
Sorry, I will finish later - now I must go .....
тихо й, слухати Пісні.
youtube.com/watch?v=JDccFGGiO9I
Yes, it is a great pity that the Commonwealth of 3 Nations didn`t arise. We would be invincible. :):) The elites of the times were too shortsighted for that and in result all parties lost and a sea of blood was spilled.
Elites at the time were no different from those in Europe.
Point is they had no partner to talk to, as all the local nobility considered themselves as part of the Commonwealth no some peasants or cossacks.
Local aristocracy choose Crown.
I think you are not able to understand times you talk about, seeing it in the light of modern standards.
It's past long forgotten, what about our land back?
Poland and Ukraine working together will be a substantial power which might positively influence this region of Europe.
Right now Ukraine is a mess , nobody knows what will happen.It dream.
With hostile relations between us, separated, we will only cause trouble for ourselves and everybody around, with third parties winning their schemes in the region.
Well, first of all Ukraine should chose it way and so far is impossible to guess future direction of that country, Poland is not in the position to do something and Nathan could say that it is imposing .......
Really good relations should be built on mutual interests and understanding.
[quote=Nathan][/quote]
You always takl about colanisation and ......lots of things I don't agree
You don't offer any argument only facts interpreted in the light of your views, and you are saying that we should working together , fine but some issue from the past should be make clear,
Have you been to the Ukraine at all and for how long?
I wonder if your views are representative ......
Sorry, I will finish later - now I must go .....
тихо й, слухати Пісні.
youtube.com/watch?v=JDccFGGiO9I
Ironside
17 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
Yeah keep dreaming. Your view at that issue is so wide of the mark that I won't bother to repeat myself, you are so bias probably due to your communist education.
I'm not forming my opinions on Germans from the Internet.
No if anything Poland offered protection from Tatar and Turks.
In what way is harmful?
I don't care, to relay on kindness of the strangers is not wise policy.
In the politics that kid of attitude is dangerous.
By colonization I mean controlling the foreign land with an ethnic group which is larger than your own and which opposes your rule and wants to abolish it. Decolonization took place after WW2 when all ethnic groups larger than colonizers rebelled against their rulers. So was the case in Ukraine.
Yeah keep dreaming. Your view at that issue is so wide of the mark that I won't bother to repeat myself, you are so bias probably due to your communist education.
Look, it would be funny to form our knowledge of contemporary Germans on the case of BB (who is pulling your leg most of the time, BTW), just like it would be funny to form it about contemporary Poles on your case.
I'm not forming my opinions on Germans from the Internet.
No, why? When you look at the map of Poland from 10 century, you will see that Poland expanded eastwards at the cost of Rusin population. If in 20 century Poles were still in minority in these lands, it meant a colonization failed.
No if anything Poland offered protection from Tatar and Turks.
I consider your demands very harmful to Poland. Even if there are more like you here and you formulate your demands formally and start political debate about it, you are going to gain nothing, but we and Poland may lose a lot.
In what way is harmful?
Anti-Polish sentiments might again rise in Ukraine. You are blind to such a possibility or don`t care
I don't care, to relay on kindness of the strangers is not wise policy.
In the politics that kid of attitude is dangerous.
Ironside
17 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
Still waiting for an answer.
Want to test your luck?
any arguments ?
Well, there is your interpretation and I know nothing about it.
And seriously I doubt your revelations about him (though I don't deny that at war, specially irregular, **** happens).
******** action and reaction ?It wasn't reaction adequate to anything and I don't think that Poles would had done the some if the situation were reversed.
As I said before if they didn't like it they should move to Soviet Ukraine - I bet they would be better off - famine and all that.
What aspiration ? do you think in the prewar situation there was chance for existence of the independent Ukrainian state ? Don't make me laugh!!!
On the said territory only 56% of the population were Ukrainian, most of the towns, industry, wealth and educated people were Polish, for one they could not be able to constitute proper government without cooperation from the Poles because there was not enough educated Ukrainians.
Thats for starters, do you think Soviets would have been standing idle.
They aspiration at the times were idiotic and dangerous to stability of any state, and considering that there were never an Ukrainian state it was impossible to do otherwise, Polish government at the time had all the power to ethically cleansing that territory, yet nobody even considered it - so don't you dare to say that Wolyn massacres were fault of the victims !!!!!!!
Your views at the matter are bias by the knowledge of the outcome and worthless.
Well, always blame victims - they cannot defended themselves!
Very wise if you blame perpetrators there is chance they might kick your ass.
I hope you are constant in your very citizen like attitude.
It just a thought but you and Nathan are coming across as one person - are you?
Do you know that for a fact ? Can you prove it?
For one what make you think so?
Secondly, what you call colonizations ?
Ah but they do! Don't believe me? Ask BB!
As for 800 years - thats wrong, check your informations.
Prussia became independent in 1701, Silesia was part of the Bohemian Kingdom and became part of Prussia in 1740.
Germans state - 1871.
Really ? What about Northern Ireland? Crazy?
And quite that nonsense about colonies , will you?
We lost to Soviet Union not to Ukrainians, Soviets no longer exist , and land taken away is claimed by states that never existed before.
And you say it's fair - maybe in the barmy world of weed smokers!
If you bend backward to accommodate everyone it may happen that someone will take advantage of you, and as for me you can do it on your own accord and your own personal responsibility but don't expect me to go along with you on this path of self deny.
My question if both Poles and Ukrainians were defending their territory - who was right ? both?
Still waiting for an answer.
Lol. All you can reserve is a kopniak w dupe. :)
Want to test your luck?
When Russ dynasty died King of Poland inherited that territory and made it part of the Crown, the same rule applied as for Burgundy or Provence.
any arguments ?
Let`s be frank about Kuraś - I think the dark side got him. If he hadn`t been fired by his superiors, he would have worked as a chief of communist secret police for many years. With his talents, he could have even made a career in their main headquarters in Warsaw, next to Berman, Radkiewicz etc.
Well, there is your interpretation and I know nothing about it.
And seriously I doubt your revelations about him (though I don't deny that at war, specially irregular, **** happens).
I don`t equal them, but I consider the WW2 Wolyn massacre a direct result of Polish brutal pacification of Ukrainian national aspirations in peace time before the war. Polish action caused Ukrainian reaction. Isn`t it obvious? DO you think that Poles would behave differently if they were in Ukrainian shoes?
******** action and reaction ?It wasn't reaction adequate to anything and I don't think that Poles would had done the some if the situation were reversed.
As I said before if they didn't like it they should move to Soviet Ukraine - I bet they would be better off - famine and all that.
What aspiration ? do you think in the prewar situation there was chance for existence of the independent Ukrainian state ? Don't make me laugh!!!
On the said territory only 56% of the population were Ukrainian, most of the towns, industry, wealth and educated people were Polish, for one they could not be able to constitute proper government without cooperation from the Poles because there was not enough educated Ukrainians.
Thats for starters, do you think Soviets would have been standing idle.
They aspiration at the times were idiotic and dangerous to stability of any state, and considering that there were never an Ukrainian state it was impossible to do otherwise, Polish government at the time had all the power to ethically cleansing that territory, yet nobody even considered it - so don't you dare to say that Wolyn massacres were fault of the victims !!!!!!!
Your views at the matter are bias by the knowledge of the outcome and worthless.
No, I am a Pole who is able to look critically at his own nation`s actions. I believe Polish politics in Ukraine was incredibly stupid and blind. And it finally brought about the massacre. It just couldn`t end another way. I am so sorry...
Well, always blame victims - they cannot defended themselves!
Very wise if you blame perpetrators there is chance they might kick your ass.
I hope you are constant in your very citizen like attitude.
It just a thought but you and Nathan are coming across as one person - are you?
Come on, be realistic. Nothing like that is going to happen. That is what irritated me about you previously - your fighting for a lost cause. :):):):)
Do you know that for a fact ? Can you prove it?
I thought the era of colonization ended long ago. :):):)
For one what make you think so?
Secondly, what you call colonizations ?
In the same way Germans may demand the return of lands in western and northern Poland which once belonged to them. For quite long- 800 hundred years??? :):):)
Ah but they do! Don't believe me? Ask BB!
As for 800 years - thats wrong, check your informations.
Prussia became independent in 1701, Silesia was part of the Bohemian Kingdom and became part of Prussia in 1740.
Germans state - 1871.
In the same way Great Britain or France lost their colonies all over the world in result of WW2. What would you think about an Brit if he/she still claimed British rights to India and its territory? Crazy? :):)):)
Really ? What about Northern Ireland? Crazy?
And quite that nonsense about colonies , will you?
Do you expect any compensation for the loss caused by the nation`s weakness? I am afraid such cases don`t happen.....
We lost to Soviet Union not to Ukrainians, Soviets no longer exist , and land taken away is claimed by states that never existed before.
And you say it's fair - maybe in the barmy world of weed smokers!
If you bend backward to accommodate everyone it may happen that someone will take advantage of you, and as for me you can do it on your own accord and your own personal responsibility but don't expect me to go along with you on this path of self deny.
Ironside
16 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
I admitted that I was somehow provocative towards Nathan.
The Rus country's were destroyed by the Tatars, one part survived and fund its way to grow.
Republic of Great Novgorod and the Grand Duchy of Moscow which later become czarist Moscow by assuming despotic power and killing and enslaving free citizen of the republic.
Kiev and the surrounding areas become part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and thus only Rus state were Duchy of Red Rus which had close ties, dynastic, economic and military with the Kingdom of Poland.
When Russ dynasty died King of Poland inherited that territory and made it part of the Crown, the same rule applied as for Burgundy or Provence.
And that finished Russ in this part of the Europe.
Only thing that left was religion.
After Union between Grant Duchy of Lithuania and Kingdom of Poland, province of Kiev and Wolyn become part of the Kingdom about 1560s.
It was almost empty land, sparsely populated, local nobility encouraged immigration of workers from the densely populated Kingdom.
In about 100 years that land have seen three things:
Rapid grow of the province in terms of the economic and demographic.
Local nobility started to think about themselves as a part of the Polish Commonwealth.
Immigrants from Poland integrated fully with local traditions and religion.
In that melting pot between Cossacks, Crown, Grand Duchy, Tatars and Moscow Rusyn tradition, language and culture had been born.
So, all references to middle ages Rus are irrelevant.
Rusyns were new phenomena but not necessary destined to become nation, only fall of the Polish Commonwealth were the reason that in the XIX century Rusyns started to build modern nation similar to Italy and Germans .
And for it's name funny enough they had taken the word from polish language Ukraine -meaning country at the edge or at the end( of the Polish Kingdom).
That closeness To Russia is result of many years of the Russian rule over that territory.
Notice that country's like Belarus and Ukraine are on the territories of the former Polish Commonwealth, they were different enough not to be devoured by the big Russian tyrannic Empire.
I have no problem with Ukraine proper and existence Ukrainian nation or first Ukrainian independent state ever.
My reservation are limited to some territory which should belong to Poland.
With that thing sorted out we all can have a one big happy family,
I suppose Russia doesn't want to be allies with Poland?? better to frighten children with story's about bad Poles kicking **** out of the poor innocent Cossack or ruling in Moscow with terror.LOL
That my view.
Well
I admitted that I was somehow provocative towards Nathan.
The Rus country's were destroyed by the Tatars, one part survived and fund its way to grow.
Republic of Great Novgorod and the Grand Duchy of Moscow which later become czarist Moscow by assuming despotic power and killing and enslaving free citizen of the republic.
Kiev and the surrounding areas become part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and thus only Rus state were Duchy of Red Rus which had close ties, dynastic, economic and military with the Kingdom of Poland.
When Russ dynasty died King of Poland inherited that territory and made it part of the Crown, the same rule applied as for Burgundy or Provence.
And that finished Russ in this part of the Europe.
Only thing that left was religion.
After Union between Grant Duchy of Lithuania and Kingdom of Poland, province of Kiev and Wolyn become part of the Kingdom about 1560s.
It was almost empty land, sparsely populated, local nobility encouraged immigration of workers from the densely populated Kingdom.
In about 100 years that land have seen three things:
Rapid grow of the province in terms of the economic and demographic.
Local nobility started to think about themselves as a part of the Polish Commonwealth.
Immigrants from Poland integrated fully with local traditions and religion.
In that melting pot between Cossacks, Crown, Grand Duchy, Tatars and Moscow Rusyn tradition, language and culture had been born.
So, all references to middle ages Rus are irrelevant.
Rusyns were new phenomena but not necessary destined to become nation, only fall of the Polish Commonwealth were the reason that in the XIX century Rusyns started to build modern nation similar to Italy and Germans .
And for it's name funny enough they had taken the word from polish language Ukraine -meaning country at the edge or at the end( of the Polish Kingdom).
That closeness To Russia is result of many years of the Russian rule over that territory.
Notice that country's like Belarus and Ukraine are on the territories of the former Polish Commonwealth, they were different enough not to be devoured by the big Russian tyrannic Empire.
I have no problem with Ukraine proper and existence Ukrainian nation or first Ukrainian independent state ever.
My reservation are limited to some territory which should belong to Poland.
With that thing sorted out we all can have a one big happy family,
I suppose Russia doesn't want to be allies with Poland?? better to frighten children with story's about bad Poles kicking **** out of the poor innocent Cossack or ruling in Moscow with terror.LOL
That my view.
Ironside
16 May 2009
Ironside
16 May 2009
News / Should Poles become a minority in Poland? [150]
I'm proposing that people in every country should take control of the governments which obviously are under some other influence.
If you take a wee black boy and rise him in the European family he will share culture and religion with his foster family regardless his racial and genetic characteristic.
If not multi-culturalism than what are you proposing?
I'm proposing that people in every country should take control of the governments which obviously are under some other influence.
How are they secondary to culture and religion when culture and religion are not passed through blood and play no role in the spread of ideas?
If you take a wee black boy and rise him in the European family he will share culture and religion with his foster family regardless his racial and genetic characteristic.
Ironside
16 May 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]
You are missing a point here guys.
All this blaming thingy or as you call it whining, has a source in one prevailing believe - that if not for WWII Poland could have been one of the leading European nation.
It's Poland ****** situation give fuel to all kinds of resentment.
You may find it laughable idea but prewar Poland was vibrant and rapidly developing nation considering starting point.
Poland economy was better than prewar Spain and Greece and most of the neighbors excluding Czechoslovakia and Germany.
WWII destroyed all and communism finished it, almost annihilated polish elite and what you can see today is but a show of the former polish culture.
No wonder some people are looking for someone to blame and it has nothing to do with
politic
You are missing a point here guys.
All this blaming thingy or as you call it whining, has a source in one prevailing believe - that if not for WWII Poland could have been one of the leading European nation.
It's Poland ****** situation give fuel to all kinds of resentment.
You may find it laughable idea but prewar Poland was vibrant and rapidly developing nation considering starting point.
Poland economy was better than prewar Spain and Greece and most of the neighbors excluding Czechoslovakia and Germany.
WWII destroyed all and communism finished it, almost annihilated polish elite and what you can see today is but a show of the former polish culture.
No wonder some people are looking for someone to blame and it has nothing to do with
politic
it was championed by the duck brothers.
Ironside
15 May 2009
News / Should Poles become a minority in Poland? [150]
No, I don't
Your obviously proposing multi-culturalism, two questions.
No, I don't
Genetic and racial characteristic are secondary to cultural and religious differences and you are mixing both together.
Ironside
15 May 2009
News / Kaliningrad. Problem, Threat or Opportunity for Poland? [185]
He is only expressing his opinion based on personal experience - and never claimed to be an expert.
If people were talking only about something they know, there'll be nothing but silence.
Talk of what you know, not what you like to know, but don't. :)
He is only expressing his opinion based on personal experience - and never claimed to be an expert.
If people were talking only about something they know, there'll be nothing but silence.
Ironside
15 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]
What it has do to do with Ukraine and Poland question?
But I will not do it anymore - satisfied?
At 22 Of January Lwów was in the hands of the residents not Ukrainians!
As for common enemies Poland had been allied with Petrula from Ukraine proper.?!
My question if both Poles and Ukrainians were defending their territory - who was right ? both?
Naprawdę? aż się posikałem ze szczęścia!)))
Well, I'm not so sure about you!
Any examples ?
How many people had been killed ?
What about Ukrainian terrorist organizations finances by foreign governments?
(they murdered polish minister)
Are you equal that with Wolyn massacres ??
Well, maybe you are Pole but strange one.
Our land back or at last some of it.
Absence of diplomacy on the internet as you claim doesn't mean you have to call names. A couple of dialogues above you asked me to not do it. Wy are offending other people?
What it has do to do with Ukraine and Poland question?
OK, let there be free speech. Forgive me all my strong words directed to you and simultaneously I forgive you yours. Let there be peace, with difference of opinion maintained. :):):)
But I will not do it anymore - satisfied?
Somehow there was Western Ukrainian People's Republic with capital in Lviv and Ukrainian People's Republic in Kijiv which united in 1919, January 22 if I am correct. So again you are wrong about that. And before the unification they didn't fight among each other and had common enemies. So what is your question?
At 22 Of January Lwów was in the hands of the residents not Ukrainians!
As for common enemies Poland had been allied with Petrula from Ukraine proper.?!
My question if both Poles and Ukrainians were defending their territory - who was right ? both?
OK, my doubts about your Polishness are more or less dissipated. :):):):):):)
Naprawdę? aż się posikałem ze szczęścia!)))
Yes, I am Ukrainian at heart. :):):):)
Well, I'm not so sure about you!
Why do you see Ukrainian monuments and forget about Polish ones? Polish controvercial figures, including murderers of innocent people, also have their monuments in Poland and Poles don`t care when foreigners critisize. So, there is a draw.
Any examples ?
Look, if in peace times of 1930s Poles organised a cultural and national cleansing (called polonisation) for Ukrainians by closing their schools, churches, organizations, sending pacification police units to Ukrainian vilages to arrest opponents and beat peasants, what do you expect that the oppressed people would do during the cruellest of all wars? Yes, UPA butchers were complete barbarians but can you also remember Polish grave mistakes in Ukraine?
How many people had been killed ?
What about Ukrainian terrorist organizations finances by foreign governments?
(they murdered polish minister)
Are you equal that with Wolyn massacres ??
Well, maybe you are Pole but strange one.
So, if Poles can`t accept their dark past, why do you expect it from Ukrainians???
Our land back or at last some of it.
Ironside
15 May 2009
Ironside
15 May 2009
History / Poles and Falaise pocket - WWII [90]
Why Those towns were chosen? for what reason ?
It's estimated, rightly or wrongly, the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved at least 2 million lives more they they cost.
Why Those towns were chosen? for what reason ?
Ironside
15 May 2009
History / Heretics Asylum - The First Republic of Poland [50]
Why to you want to be "Catholic"? Is it important to you to be "fake" Catholic as opposite to the real thing?
Why are you so persistent to be something in the name only?
You oppose confluence of the clergy in the political affairs and private lives - any examples?
Because what? Because you have the power to decide what Catholicsm is? Going by your definition, maybe 15% of people who consider themselvs Catholics are "the real thing". At least among people I know. I, for one, am anticlericall Catholic. I oppose the influence of the clergy in political affairs or on our private lives. Is that illogical for you? So down with the logic. Who cares.
Why to you want to be "Catholic"? Is it important to you to be "fake" Catholic as opposite to the real thing?
Why are you so persistent to be something in the name only?
You oppose confluence of the clergy in the political affairs and private lives - any examples?
Ironside
15 May 2009
News / Should Poles become a minority in Poland? [150]
Genetic and racial characteristic are secondary to cultural and religious differences and you are mixing both together.
And i have no big love for Germans but i'll take a Fritz over a paki any day of the week.
Genetic and racial characteristic are secondary to cultural and religious differences and you are mixing both together.