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Heretics Asylum - The First Republic of Poland


McCoy 27 | 1,275  
26 Apr 2009 /  #1
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Tazbir

I highly recommend to google for other of his essays on polish history.
Barney 15 | 1,472  
27 Apr 2009 /  #2
I'm interested in this period of Polish history (certainly not an expert) especially the dynamics in the interaction between the panoply of groups. I'll look for some of Janusz Tazbir's work.

I've read some stuff (not Tazbir's...never heard of him!!) and it is fascinating.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
27 Apr 2009 /  #3
So how did Poland go from accepting all these Calvinists and Quakers, Muslims and Menonites to being almost entirely Roman Catholic?

About things like the inquisition, it is quite interesting. The situation seemed to be harshest in places like Portugal and Spain - also very Catholic although not entirely. When Rome decided to change the calendar, dropping the Julian in favour of the still-used Gregorian, Poland-Lithuania was one of the very first countries to change.

Of all the Poles I have met in real life here and in Poland, whose words I have read on this forum and about whom I have read in various places, it is interesting that there are German names, Scottish names, Lithuanian names, all neatly Polonicised. There are Poles with obvious Jewish ancestry, some less obvious. There's even PF's very own Polish Protestant, at least one Polish atheist. There was a Pole I worked with whose dark complexion suggested that he may have been Gypsy or even Tatar. One of the Poles at work is even, dare I say it...? A homo...

With such an interesting cultural background and such diversity, why are there so many (mostly the ones I read on PF) who try to narrow Polishness down to the simplest, most constricting definition of Catholic, Slavic and straight. Not that I have anything against anyone who is Catholic, Slavic and straight! It's just that if you look back a few generations, you'll always find something unexpected.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
27 Apr 2009 /  #4
First came the "Deluge" a war in which protestants fought against Poland, then came Jews/Ukrainians being anti-Polish between those two happenings centuries apart Poles became dissilusioned.
Krzysztof 2 | 973  
27 Apr 2009 /  #5
So how did Poland go from accepting all these Calvinists and Quakers, Muslims and Menonites to being almost entirely Roman Catholic?

20th century changes in population structure played a big part in this.
"We" had the Holocaust on our lands, and then the Big Brothers shifted our borders, taking all the regions inhabitated by Ukrainians, Belorussians, Lithuanians. On the western lands (handed to Poland after WWII) the Germans were expelled, and those living in other parts of Poland simply preferred not to stay here or were expelled too. Some smaller groups (like Ukrainians and Lemko from Bieszczady) were re-settled (with brute force) shortly after the war to different parts of the western Poland, so the comunity was dispersed.

When there are no large centers of some ethnic group, the assimilation is probably faster - you'll rather meet mostly Catholics - want to marry one, you change your religion or not, but you raise your children as Catholics, because it's the dominant religion/tradition in the place you now live.
Salomon 2 | 436  
27 Apr 2009 /  #6
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Reformed_Church

The Polish Reformed Church, officially called the Evangelical Reformed Church in the republic of Poland (Polish: Kościół Ewangelicko-Reformowany w RP) is a historic Protestant church in Poland established in the 16th century, still in existence today.

The Greater Poland Brethren was incorporated in 1817 to the Prussian Evangelical Union Church as a separate district but without any autonomy. Under constant pressure from the German government by the mid 19th century the United Church abandoned Polish in its liturgy and most of old Reformed nobles chose to convert to Roman Catholicism rather than to become Germans.

What I want to add. Poland is going to be heretic again. Some people may think that straight Polish person is Catholic but when you read about Polish history ... you are going to see that ... there were always heretic tendentions ... Communism is over, church isn't needed in fight against system. Polish Pope is dead, Poland isn't occupied ....

I doubt that Poland will be Protestant again but for sure we are going to see some original changes in this country.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448  
27 Apr 2009 /  #7
Poland has long been known as a haven for dissidents, as the Polityka article poitns out. The main exception are the Aryans (Uniatrians) who were expelled from Poland in the 17th century. Most often the reason, which was poltiical not religious, is ignored. THE ARYANS SIDED WITH THE INVADING SWEDES AND THEREFORE COMMITTED TREASON AGAINST THEIR NATIVE LAND, POLAND.

On another score, one of the ironies of history is that Poland is indebted to Stalin (although that was hardly his intention) for being so staunchly Cathlolic. His truncated Poland devoid of the Ruthenian east, became a compact, ethnically homogenous country. And during the years of communist oppression the Catholic Church was the people's only refuge and soruce of comfort and consolation.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,662  
27 Apr 2009 /  #8
Yeah sometimes I wonder if he really knew what he was doing xD

What I want to add. Poland is going to be heretic again

Heretic = different/ telling something else
Well yeah, their that allready to the west so it would rather be non- Heretical soon
Salomon 2 | 436  
27 Apr 2009 /  #9
THE ARYANS SIDED WITH THE INVADING SWEDES AND THEREFORE COMMITTED TREASON AGAINST THEIR NATIVE LAND, POLAND.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Brethren

Polish Brethren (also called Antitrinitarians, Arians, or Socinians, Polish: Arianie, Bracia Polscy) was the name of a Protestant Polish church from the 16th century.

hey advocated the separation of church and state and taught the equality and brotherhood of all people; they opposed social privileges based on religious affiliation, and their adherents refused military service (they were known for carrying wooden swords instead of real almost obligatory szablas) and declined political office. They were against capital punishment, and did not believe in the traditional Christian doctrines of Hell or the Trinity.

Aryans didn't fight because they were pacifist, and yes durring the war they haven't defendend homeland but it was caused by ideology (defending homeland was in their nobility duty). What is sure it can't be called collaboration.

That is why they had the biggest problems when we look on Polish protestant churches and their situation after deluge ...
Softsong 5 | 495  
27 Apr 2009 /  #10
On my two trips to Poland, I was interested in seeing the areas where my Polish ancestors had lived, as well as my ethnic German ancestors who bear testimony to the wonderful way that Poland welcomed all those of different faiths needing a home.

They were originally part of the Flemish/Frisian (Dutch) Mennonite groups that came to Poland for religious freedom. At some point, they assimilated with the German Kashubian Lutherans and Prussian Germans.

At this point, the Polish nobles wanted the swamps and forests cleared and with their Dutch/North German ability to reclaim swamp land, they were welcomed in the area around Rypin and Lipno and guaranted the right to remain Protestant.

This link shows the little wooden Lutheran church that my grandmother attended as a child, and the Lutheran church that was built later.

upstreamvistula.org/Parishes/Michalki.htm
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448  
28 Apr 2009 /  #11
One need not take up weapns to side with someone. During hostiliteis it is treason to spy for the enemy, advance his cause (from the pulpit) and/or demoralise the troops of one's own homeland regardless of motivation. In times of war, when a nation's fate hangs in the balance, there is little room for such niceties as whether the Aryans backed the Swedes becuase they were fellow-heretics or due to their blind hatred of Polish Catholicism or perhaps some other reason. Let's face it, Swedish troops and their paid mercenaries flooded Poland almost to the southern mountainsm, and only Jasna Góra, that bulwark of Polish Catholicism, broke the advance of the Nordic, heretical hordes, triggering their roll-back across the Baltic.
Salomon 2 | 436  
28 Apr 2009 /  #12
Polonus you talk like Spanish inquisition. You know the truth about the strenght of Catholic church in Poland doesn't come from peoples believes but from different historical events, wars ect.

In my opinion very soon you are going to see real believes of Polish people and I am sure you are going to be disilusioned.

As to Protestants Adam Małysz is Protestant, Jerzy Buzek is Protestant and I've never heard anny negative statments about their religion...

As to Aryans they were pacyfist and every nation has some pacyfist movements ...
lesser 4 | 1,311  
28 Apr 2009 /  #13
In my opinion very soon you are going to see real believes of Polish people and I am sure you are going to be disilusioned.

Please share with us, what are the real believes of Polish people? I'm so curious! :)
Salomon 2 | 436  
28 Apr 2009 /  #14
:) You don't have to make special comments in other dabtes before you talk to me :)

If you are so curious! :)

True believes are just much more varied than one could think.

77% of Polish people supports in vitro ... 17% is against ... rest doesn't have opinion.

Według badania, zdecydowana większość Polaków (77 proc.) akceptuje stosowanie zapłodnienia in vitro w przypadku małżeństw niemogących mieć dzieci. Przeciwnego zdania jest 17 proc. badanych.

How to say it ... in Catholic faith ...

Pet Shop Boys - It's A Sin

:)
lesser 4 | 1,311  
28 Apr 2009 /  #15
77% of Polish people supports in vitro ... 17% is against ... rest doesn't have opinion.

You could provide similar numbers that most of Poles is against abortion. So how could they support in vitro? You cannot eat apple and still keep it. They are simply ignorant, because they speak about issues that they don't understand.

Other issue is that most of polls are made on demand, demand of final results...
leszek38 - | 31  
2 May 2009 /  #16
These things has nothing to do with religion.

1. I consider myself Catholic.
2. I do support in vitro (maybe I dont understand it LOL).
3. And while I dont like abortion, I dont believe it should be baned by law.
Above 3 things are completly separate, and have nothing to do with each other.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
2 May 2009 /  #17
2. I do support in vitro (maybe I dont understand it LOL).

I will not go so off-topic to discuss these matters in this thread. I will just write that if you support something that you don't understand then this is serious reason to be worried! :)
leszek38 - | 31  
9 May 2009 /  #18
I was (trying to be) sarcastic, as there is nothing to understand.
In vitro is just a way for infertile pair to have a kid. There is nothing more to it.
Does it make me heretic?
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #19
Hell in paved with good intentions. You indeed don't understand or simply don't care.

Does it make me heretic?

Certainly not a Catholic.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
9 May 2009 /  #20
In vitro is just a way for infertile pair to have a kid. There is nothing more to it.

while I agree with what I think you mean, the argument is funny :)
It's like saying: stealing is just a way for a legally challenged to make a living. There is nothing more to it.
Salomon 2 | 436  
9 May 2009 /  #21
lesser

It seems that you are in minority ... what is more using your words ... "which is risky for state stability" lol ;)
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #22
I don't know what is your point. However I want to write that while being in minority is not itself a reason to be proud, still being in majority would be mostly a reason to be very ashamed!
Salomon 2 | 436  
9 May 2009 /  #23
I don't know what is your point.

My point is that in previous debates you claimed that miniorities with strange views are risky for state stability ... now you, with your views, are in miniority.

So what should we do with you to make Poland more stable ?
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #24
My point is that in previous debates you claimed that miniorities with strange views are risky for state stability so the state should try to get rid of them ... and now you with your views are in miniority.

If anything, then I might claim that for example religious sects in traditional Catholic (Protestant, Muslim etc) monarchy questioned legitimacy of king to rule. They consisted anti-system element, so naturally they were risky for state stability. This is the reason why many European monarchs targeted them.

You think that democracies tolerate openly anti-democratic opinions? You would be very naive... You should not generalise about my statement, this is poor eristic trick :)

So what should we do with you to make Poland more stable ?

You know, Stalin also provided stability in the Soviet Union. I think that I would be one of many victims of his regime :)
Salomon 2 | 436  
9 May 2009 /  #25
If anything, then I might claim that for example religious sects in traditional Catholic (Protestant, Muslim etc) monarchy questioned legitimacy of king to rule. They consisted anti-system element, so naturally they were risky for state stability. This is the reason why many European monarchs targeted them.

I claim that Catholic Church is sect which questions legitimacy of the statee when it comes to for example to in vitro. As long as you oppose it in normal way like:

demostrations, debates ect. it is ok for me but just try to break the law :)

Be happy that you are tolerated.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #26
Abortion is a murder and part of in vitro procedure. Murder is forbidden by law.

Unlike Vatican I really question legitimacy of III RP. I understand that if I would become more influential my life would be under threat.
Salomon 2 | 436  
9 May 2009 /  #27
Abortion is a murder and part of in vitro procedure. Murder is forbidden by law.

When I use condoms am I clasified as murderer by you ?

I understand that if I would become more influential my life would be under threat.

I have strange feeling that if you were more influential my life would be under threat ...

I am so happy that you aren't influential.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #28
When I use condoms am I clasified as murderer by you ?

Of course not, I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Do you attended biology lessons in primary school?

I have strange feeling that if you were more influential my life would be under threat ...

I support death penalty only for murderers, so if you are not the one your life would be not under threat.
Salomon 2 | 436  
9 May 2009 /  #29
I support death penalty only for murderers, so if you are not the one your life would be not under threat.

I thought that JPII was against death penalty.

Anny way your clasiffication of the murder (in vitro) is Catholic one, which I question as most people in Poland. You can go and demonstrate, you can debate with people but just be polite and don't break the law.

If one day you are going to have problems with having childern you can visit this clinic in Warszawa :

en.gameta.pl/the-clinic/the-clinic.html

We welcome you cordially in Fertility Treatment Centre GAMETA. The aim of our Clinic is to help all pairs reporting problems with conceiving desired progeny. Infertility is unfortunately an entity observed more and more frequently and a huge problem for many men and women.
In our Clinic dreams come true - thanks to discoveries of modern medicine - we overcome barriers and give hope for the appearance of the long awaited child in your family. The Head of the clinic i s professor MD PhD Jerzy Radwan, who, in the 80-ies of the previous century gained experience in treating infertility in France and the United States. He is the co-author of the 1987 success - the birth of the first child in Poland conceived with the use of in vitro fertilization (IVF).

Close and long-lasting cooperation with French and American centres guarantees that our patients will undergo most modern methods of infertility treatment on a level meeting highest worldwide standards. We constantly widen our knowledge and abilities, which enabled us to reach such spectacular results. The best confirmation of our efforts are thousands of children conceived in our Clinic, living not only in Poland but also in other countries.

lesser 4 | 1,311  
10 May 2009 /  #30
I thought that JPII was against death penalty.

Generally yes, however even him doesn't exclude death penalty definitely. Still his personal view is not obligatory for Catholics, Catechism of the Catholic Church state clearly:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

Anny way your clasiffication of the murder (in vitro) is Catholic one, which I question as most people in Poland.

My classification is a scientific one and this is obvious for anybody with basic knowledge of biology.

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