Heretics Asylum - The First Republic of Poland

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Tazbir

I highly recommend to google for other of his essays on polish history.

I'm interested in this period of Polish history (certainly not an expert) especially the dynamics in the interaction between the panoply of groups. I'll look for some of Janusz Tazbir's work.

I've read some stuff (not Tazbir's...never heard of him!!) and it is fascinating.

So how did Poland go from accepting all these Calvinists and Quakers, Muslims and Menonites to being almost entirely Roman Catholic?

About things like the inquisition, it is quite interesting. The situation seemed to be harshest in places like Portugal and Spain - also very Catholic although not entirely. When Rome decided to change the calendar, dropping the Julian in favour of the still-used Gregorian, Poland-Lithuania was one of the very first countries to change.

Of all the Poles I have met in real life here and in Poland, whose words I have read on this forum and about whom I have read in various places, it is interesting that there are German names, Scottish names, Lithuanian names, all neatly Polonicised. There are Poles with obvious Jewish ancestry, some less obvious. There's even PF's very own Polish Protestant, at least one Polish atheist. There was a Pole I worked with whose dark complexion suggested that he may have been Gypsy or even Tatar. One of the Poles at work is even, dare I say it...? A homo...

With such an interesting cultural background and such diversity, why are there so many (mostly the ones I read on PF) who try to narrow Polishness down to the simplest, most constricting definition of Catholic, Slavic and straight. Not that I have anything against anyone who is Catholic, Slavic and straight! It's just that if you look back a few generations, you'll always find something unexpected.

First came the "Deluge" a war in which protestants fought against Poland, then came Jews/Ukrainians being anti-Polish between those two happenings centuries apart Poles became dissilusioned.

20th century changes in population structure played a big part in this.
"We" had the Holocaust on our lands, and then the Big Brothers shifted our borders, taking all the regions inhabitated by Ukrainians, Belorussians, Lithuanians. On the western lands (handed to Poland after WWII) the Germans were expelled, and those living in other parts of Poland simply preferred not to stay here or were expelled too. Some smaller groups (like Ukrainians and Lemko from Bieszczady) were re-settled (with brute force) shortly after the war to different parts of the western Poland, so the comunity was dispersed.

When there are no large centers of some ethnic group, the assimilation is probably faster - you'll rather meet mostly Catholics - want to marry one, you change your religion or not, but you raise your children as Catholics, because it's the dominant religion/tradition in the place you now live.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Reformed_Church



What I want to add. Poland is going to be heretic again. Some people may think that straight Polish person is Catholic but when you read about Polish history ... you are going to see that ... there were always heretic tendentions ... Communism is over, church isn't needed in fight against system. Polish Pope is dead, Poland isn't occupied ....

I doubt that Poland will be Protestant again but for sure we are going to see some original changes in this country.

Poland has long been known as a haven for dissidents, as the Polityka article poitns out. The main exception are the Aryans (Uniatrians) who were expelled from Poland in the 17th century. Most often the reason, which was poltiical not religious, is ignored. THE ARYANS SIDED WITH THE INVADING SWEDES AND THEREFORE COMMITTED TREASON AGAINST THEIR NATIVE LAND, POLAND.

On another score, one of the ironies of history is that Poland is indebted to Stalin (although that was hardly his intention) for being so staunchly Cathlolic. His truncated Poland devoid of the Ruthenian east, became a compact, ethnically homogenous country. And during the years of communist oppression the Catholic Church was the people's only refuge and soruce of comfort and consolation.

Yeah sometimes I wonder if he really knew what he was doing xD


Heretic = different/ telling something else
Well yeah, their that allready to the west so it would rather be non- Heretical soon

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Brethren



Aryans didn't fight because they were pacifist, and yes durring the war they haven't defendend homeland but it was caused by ideology (defending homeland was in their nobility duty). What is sure it can't be called collaboration.

That is why they had the biggest problems when we look on Polish protestant churches and their situation after deluge ...

On my two trips to Poland, I was interested in seeing the areas where my Polish ancestors had lived, as well as my ethnic German ancestors who bear testimony to the wonderful way that Poland welcomed all those of different faiths needing a home.

They were originally part of the Flemish/Frisian (Dutch) Mennonite groups that came to Poland for religious freedom. At some point, they assimilated with the German Kashubian Lutherans and Prussian Germans.

At this point, the Polish nobles wanted the swamps and forests cleared and with their Dutch/North German ability to reclaim swamp land, they were welcomed in the area around Rypin and Lipno and guaranted the right to remain Protestant.

This link shows the little wooden Lutheran church that my grandmother attended as a child, and the Lutheran church that was built later.

upstreamvistula.org/Parishes/Michalki.htm

One need not take up weapns to side with someone. During hostiliteis it is treason to spy for the enemy, advance his cause (from the pulpit) and/or demoralise the troops of one's own homeland regardless of motivation. In times of war, when a nation's fate hangs in the balance, there is little room for such niceties as whether the Aryans backed the Swedes becuase they were fellow-heretics or due to their blind hatred of Polish Catholicism or perhaps some other reason. Let's face it, Swedish troops and their paid mercenaries flooded Poland almost to the southern mountainsm, and only Jasna Góra, that bulwark of Polish Catholicism, broke the advance of the Nordic, heretical hordes, triggering their roll-back across the Baltic.

Polonus you talk like Spanish inquisition. You know the truth about the strenght of Catholic church in Poland doesn't come from peoples believes but from different historical events, wars ect.

In my opinion very soon you are going to see real believes of Polish people and I am sure you are going to be disilusioned.

As to Protestants Adam Małysz is Protestant, Jerzy Buzek is Protestant and I've never heard anny negative statments about their religion...

As to Aryans they were pacyfist and every nation has some pacyfist movements ...

Please share with us, what are the real believes of Polish people? I'm so curious! :)

:) You don't have to make special comments in other dabtes before you talk to me :)

If you are so curious! :)

True believes are just much more varied than one could think.

77% of Polish people supports in vitro ... 17% is against ... rest doesn't have opinion.


How to say it ... in Catholic faith ...

Pet Shop Boys - It's A Sin

:)

You could provide similar numbers that most of Poles is against abortion. So how could they support in vitro? You cannot eat apple and still keep it. They are simply ignorant, because they speak about issues that they don't understand.

Other issue is that most of polls are made on demand, demand of final results...

These things has nothing to do with religion.

1. I consider myself Catholic.
2. I do support in vitro (maybe I dont understand it LOL).
3. And while I dont like abortion, I dont believe it should be baned by law.
Above 3 things are completly separate, and have nothing to do with each other.

I will not go so off-topic to discuss these matters in this thread. I will just write that if you support something that you don't understand then this is serious reason to be worried! :)

I was (trying to be) sarcastic, as there is nothing to understand.
In vitro is just a way for infertile pair to have a kid. There is nothing more to it.
Does it make me heretic?

Hell in paved with good intentions. You indeed don't understand or simply don't care.


Certainly not a Catholic.

while I agree with what I think you mean, the argument is funny :)
It's like saying: stealing is just a way for a legally challenged to make a living. There is nothing more to it.

It seems that you are in minority ... what is more using your words ... "which is risky for state stability" lol ;)

I don't know what is your point. However I want to write that while being in minority is not itself a reason to be proud, still being in majority would be mostly a reason to be very ashamed!

My point is that in previous debates you claimed that miniorities with strange views are risky for state stability ... now you, with your views, are in miniority.

So what should we do with you to make Poland more stable ?

If anything, then I might claim that for example religious sects in traditional Catholic (Protestant, Muslim etc) monarchy questioned legitimacy of king to rule. They consisted anti-system element, so naturally they were risky for state stability. This is the reason why many European monarchs targeted them.

You think that democracies tolerate openly anti-democratic opinions? You would be very naive... You should not generalise about my statement, this is poor eristic trick :)


You know, Stalin also provided stability in the Soviet Union. I think that I would be one of many victims of his regime :)

I claim that Catholic Church is sect which questions legitimacy of the statee when it comes to for example to in vitro. As long as you oppose it in normal way like:

demostrations, debates ect. it is ok for me but just try to break the law :)

Be happy that you are tolerated.

Abortion is a murder and part of in vitro procedure. Murder is forbidden by law.

Unlike Vatican I really question legitimacy of III RP. I understand that if I would become more influential my life would be under threat.

When I use condoms am I clasified as murderer by you ?


I have strange feeling that if you were more influential my life would be under threat ...

I am so happy that you aren't influential.

Of course not, I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Do you attended biology lessons in primary school?


I support death penalty only for murderers, so if you are not the one your life would be not under threat.

I thought that JPII was against death penalty.

Anny way your clasiffication of the murder (in vitro) is Catholic one, which I question as most people in Poland. You can go and demonstrate, you can debate with people but just be polite and don't break the law.

If one day you are going to have problems with having childern you can visit this clinic in Warszawa :

en.gameta.pl/the-clinic/the-clinic.html

Generally yes, however even him doesn't exclude death penalty definitely. Still his personal view is not obligatory for Catholics, Catechism of the Catholic Church state clearly:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.


My classification is a scientific one and this is obvious for anybody with basic knowledge of biology.