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Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land?


Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
8 Oct 2009 /  #91
...don't want to get anal (yuck) but Lwow seems really pretty...me likes baroque...
George8600 10 | 636  
9 Oct 2009 /  #92
Probably, according to Putin and Medvedev they are top-class thieves. They stole a fourth of the gas Gazprom sends them. lol
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
10 Oct 2009 /  #93
Poles might have designed some buildings in L'viv - nothing else. There is no such a thing as "Polish" architecture. Why are you surprised by me mentioning Armenians? The oldest church in Lviv is Armenian Orthodox church (Xlll century if I am not mistaken) that somehow escaped wild hordes of invading Poles in 14th century, when those burnt most of L'viv churches. As to cultural diversity it doesn't mean that you have to build something (or in case with Poles - destroy something) in order to represent cultural diversity. It might mean that people are living, working and participating in the life of the city and at the same time bringing something from their cultural heritage. We are not like some countries 95% catholic mono-national monolith ( no names here ;)- no - we have pretty large diversity, Sokrates.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
10 Oct 2009 /  #94
Poles might have designed some buildings in L'viv

Some? We've been building this city for over half a thousand years, virtually all of Lwóws old town is built by Poles.

There is no such a thing as "Polish" architecture.

Says you, Baroq, Polish reinessaince et cetera, its all over Kraków, Poznań and its all over Lwów.

The oldest church in Lviv is Armenian Orthodox church (Xlll century if I am not mistaken)

I'm sorry Nathan the oldest church in Lwów is "Holy Mather of Snow" and was built in 1340 by German settlers.

As to cultural diversity it doesn't mean that you have to build something

Still more than 90% of surviving buildings were built by Poles over the course of more than 650 years.

We are not like some countries 95% catholic mono-national monolith ( no names here ;)- no - we have pretty large diversity, Sokrates.

Which doesnt change the fact that Poles built Lwów, developed Lwów, that Lwów is the second best preserved Polish city in the world or that it was for over half a millenium one of our greatest cities untill Stalin took it and gave it to Ukraine.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
10 Oct 2009 /  #95
My mistake, yes German settlers built Maria Snizhna Church in 1340s. Armenian was built 20 years later. But it isn't the oldest either. There is some evidence that St. John the Baptist church built in 1250 by Ukrainian king Lev for his wife Constance, who was a Hungarian princess. On the other hand, some date it somewhere in the mid-xlv century, so I wouldn't argue too much about it.

I don't deny that some Polish imprint is on the city of L'viv (there is not Lwow anywhere in the world as far as I am aware of), but funny claims of 90% etc. are just out of line. Polish occupation of 450 years in the history of a city that celebrated its 753rd anniversiry plus the fact that majority of the buildings were built in 18-20th centuries, when Poland didn't exist, makes the assumptions preposterous.

Baroq, Polish reinessaince et cetera

Exactly :), rein and roq - Polish invention, no doubt.
One important fact - Ukrainians inhabited L'viv long before Polish wild roaming hungry hordes encroached on our lands.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768  
10 Oct 2009 /  #96
Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land?
No. Ukraine is not an entity that can act or think of one mind therefore it is not able to be personalized or characterized as an individual. This personalization of nations has got to be the most common form of lazy thinking when it comes to politics and history. Repeat, nations are not people. Get past this hurdle and fruitful honest discussions are soon to follow.
cinek_ - | 6  
10 Oct 2009 /  #97
wild roaming hungry hordes encroached on our lands.

lol. hordes ? occupation?
did you heard about prince Jerzy II (Юрій II Болеслав Тройденович), Kazimierz Wielki, year 1340 ? anything?
slo 1 | 52  
10 Oct 2009 /  #98
Ridiculous topic overall... But if you are asking. Lwow was settled on land of Галицько-Волинське Князівство (Galicia-Volyn Duchy) founded by one of son of Kiev ruler Volodymyr the Great. It was like that starting from 11 or 12 century. Poles took over the land much later and the area have been populated by Ukrainian language population for all time you can explore.

Ukrainians were the same way victims of Russian and Soviet empire as Poles and did not took the land from Poland. Don't blame Ukrainians. Lets live in peace together.

... You using widely broadcasted by Kremlin anti-Ukrainian state propaganda word "stealing" here. Why applying here? Reading to much in Russian?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
10 Oct 2009 /  #99
Poles took over the land much later and the area have been populated by Ukrainian language population for all time you can explore.

Lets be specific, Lwów was founded in 1256 and Poles conquered it in 1350 from the on Lwów was a Polish city untill 1939 even under Austria it was developed by Poles.

So no Poland didnt take over much later, Poland conquered Lwów 94 years after it was founded and it was a Polish city for the next 589 years, we took over a bunch of mud huts and stone houses and built one of the most beatifull cities in the East over the course of half of a millenium.

Lets be clear, neither Polish goverment nor Polish general populace wants to take anything from Ukraine, Lwów was Polish now its Ukrainian and we got over it but for Christs sake dont try to make it a historically diverse city because Poles built it, Poles ruled it, it was one of the heartlands of Poland and evidence is present on virtually every street, most of the larger buildings still bear our coats of arms even.

Don't blame Ukrainians.

We do not, we think of Lwów as historically ours but the goverment and the nation basically respect the current situation and there's no real intention to revise borders.
slo 1 | 52  
10 Oct 2009 /  #100
Yes, Sokrates, I can be sympathetic to feelings of Poles toward our Lviv/Lwow. Many Ukrainians respect those feelings as soon we are good friends, as now we are.
Borrka 37 | 594  
10 Oct 2009 /  #101
Nathan's position reminds me of an old history teacher of mine who was unable to accept any positive German influences in the Poland's past.

His family suffered a lot during the ww2 at hands of Nazis.

It's obvious to anybody with some common sense that modern European civilization "moved" from the ex-Roman Empire and its followers like Italy, Germany to the East.

The impact of the German colonization, German tradesmen, farmers, artist etc.etc.was enormous in medieval Poland.
Not the proto-nazi invention, so called "Kulturträger" but thousands of skilled carpenters, farmers, monks coming from Germany.

But not for him.

This poor guy deeply believed that all Germans have done in the East were mass killings and robbery - he was ready to acknowledge the fundamental Martians' contribution to the Polish culture but never the German one.

Same way Nathan is trying to convince us that Polish nobles spent over 400 years destroying Ukrainian cities and villages (their property BTW) and ruining local farming (their property as well).

Poles made 50% of Lviv population (census 1931) but of course it were Ukrainians (16%) who developed the city, its culture and science.

To make a long story short :
today its Ukrainian Lviv and let it be.
But to deny its Polish past the way Nathan is doing that means creating new myths.
This time not Polish or Russian myths.
Ukrainian pure.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
10 Oct 2009 /  #102
Ukrainian pure

Nathans typical fascistic bull!

today its Ukrainian Lviv.

Correct !

and let it be.

NO no no ******* way buster!#
give away whats yours, Lwów doesn't belong to you....so don't give it away!

Lwów should simply belong to Poland!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Oct 2009 /  #103
give away whats yours, Lwów doesn't belong to you....so don't give it away!

Luckily you dont represent the views of the majority in Poland.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
11 Oct 2009 /  #104
if you are correct, rather sadly:p
But I'm confident that you are not right and given right cirrcumstances most people soundly will agree with me.

BY the way, I think that Lwów should simply belong to Poland!
pawian 179 | 16,322  
11 Oct 2009 /  #105
BY the way, I think that Lwów should simply belong to Poland!

Wow, so simple. :):):):):):)

Good luck in bringing Lvov back to Poland. :):):):):):)
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
11 Oct 2009 /  #106
Wow, so simple. :):)

banana?
its your lucky day ...... take it and go gallop on your fours as good pawians do ......
watch out for baobabs on the savanna plateau ....you ....baboon :P

BY the way, I think that Lwów should simply belong to Poland!

I think that Lwów should simply belong to Poland!

Wow you are coming to your senses ....happy days for the pawians family ..
Arien 3 | 721  
11 Oct 2009 /  #107
Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land?

No they didn't. Today, Ukraine is Ukraine, just like Poland is Poland. (I mean, the Dutch could complain about Belgium and Luxembourg stealing our land aswell?) It's in the past, move on. National boarders aren't even important anymore, because it's all European soil now..

:)

Or will be!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Oct 2009 /  #108
But I'm confident that you are not right

There was a poll done on Onet, 71% of Poles thought Lwów was historically Polish but respected its current place in Ukraine so yeah you're definitely a minority.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
11 Oct 2009 /  #109
poll done

pols shmols
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 Oct 2009 /  #110
Poles made 50% of Lviv population (census 1931)

I don't argue, but 90% of L'viv architecture - give me a break.

today its Ukrainian Lviv and let it be.
But to deny its Polish past the way Nathan is doing that means creating new myths.

I don't deny Polish input in Ukrainian city. I just don't feel like tolerating following expressions:

Lwów was Polish now its Ukrainian and we got over it

No, it was Ukrainian, it was built by Ukrainian king, occupied by Poles and now it is back where it always belonged. This is all I wanted to say. When there is a talk with Germans, you dig some stone from Gdansk harbor in 990s set by Mieszko l just to prove that it was Polish. So be kind to acknowledge historical fact when we are talking about L'viv. Again, I don't deny Polish impact on L'viv architecture, but, please, don't overblow it, Sokrates, especially when you "got over it for Christ sake" ; )

Regards to all.
polomintz 2 | 46  
11 Oct 2009 /  #111
Quoting: David_18, Post #24
I think its a good idea that we get the lands back becuse then we could REPAIR all the citys becuse the ukrainians DONT, when i went to Lwow and other former Polish citys, the only thing i saw was unrepared buildings and roads.

...hmmmm lol whatever!!!!!

you are a funny guy, Poland doesn't even have the money to sustain their own economy, never mind repairing buildings in Ukraine

....indeed he is! can you remember britain giving away £7 billion pounds of OUR money that was supposed to help repair buildings and roads in OUR COUNTRY! INSTEAD they give it to BLOODY POLAND to REPAIR your roads,etc!...

Think about that one honey!!!!!!!!!

*god i dread the day ukraine comes into the eu, mind you, the e.u would probably stop russia cutting off your gas suppy *
pawian 179 | 16,322  
11 Oct 2009 /  #112
Wow you are coming to your senses ....happy days for the pawians family ..

What a foul cheater you are! :):):):):)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Oct 2009 /  #113
I don't argue, but 90% of L'viv architecture - give me a break.

Lwów railstation built and designed by a Pole. Lwów old town, Polish kamienice with our coats of arms on them, Polish town hall, Polish built churches, Polish palace in which a Polish king resided, market square in Lwów - Polish merchant houses, Lwów Opera house built by a Pole.

Yes Nathan we've been governing the city 6 times longer than you were so its only natural most of it is built by us, we can go on with examples of what Poles built or ordered built.

I don't deny Polish input in Ukrainian city. I just don't feel like tolerating following expressions:

Deny all you want, it was within the borders of Ruthenian country for 94 years and within borders of Poland for 584 years.

We built almost every historical site and community building in it, we built railways and roads to and from it, we made the city what it is today, you just inherited it.

it was built by Ukrainian king

As several mud huts and a stone keep, and then we took over and built it into one of the major cities of the Eastern Europe.

you dig some stone from Gdansk harbor in 990s set by Mieszko l just to prove that it was Polish.

No, the difference with Gdańsk is that it had a Polish majority for over 4 centuries and when Poles became a minority it was still several centuries before they vanished as a significant group, Polish nobility was always a large part of the upper echelons of Gdansk society and built a LOT of the city.

Gdańsk is a city with mixed history though i prefer to think of it as Polish, if you want an analogy with Lwów pick Wrocław which is a city we basically inherited from the Germans just like you inherited Lwów, Wrocław is not historically Polish and Lwów is not historically Ukrainian.

I don't deny Polish impact on L'viv architecture

And art, and culture and religion and economy.

don't overblow it,

I dont, Lwów was a Polish city, show me an argument as to why would it be Ukrainian, yes you built it and we took over it but its we who developed it.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 Oct 2009 /  #114
we built railways and roads to and from it

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Railways

The first railway road that was built in current territory of Ukraine was railway track Przemyśl - Lviv, which was part of the connection from Kraków. The line was constructed by Imperial Austrian State Railways and its official name was K. K. Priv. Galizische Carl Ludwig-Bahn. It was built in 1861 under initiative of Leon Sapieha, and was 98 km long. In 1866 railway road reached Chernivtsi. In 1869 railroad Lviv - Brody was built. In 1870 railroads reached Ternopil. In 1871 LR was connected with railroads of Russian Empire. Before World War I the total length of LR railway road was 2676 km

As you can see something doesn't add up with "we built ..." story.

Yes Nathan we've been governing the city 6 times longer

Ukraine 1256-1349
Poland 1349-1772
Habsburg empire 1772-1918
Poland 1918-1939
Ukraine 1939-2009...
Poland total 444 years
Ukraine 163 years
444/163 = 2.723926 :)
Lviv Opera House built in 1897-1900, project by Z. Gorgolewski, Polish architect whose drawings were picked as the best design. It cost 6 million Austrian crowns and money were gathered on L'viv budget + donations. Cool, but again "we built.."? No. Designed? Yes.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Oct 2009 /  #115
money were gathered on L'viv budget

And who was the ruling class during Habsburg occupation? (it was Polish money that it was built from)

So yes even under Habsburgs we designed, we built and we developed, with our money, our projects and our plans.

Ukraine 1939-2009...

1945-2009, in 1939-45 thats still Polish land.

Habsburg empire 1772-1918

1779 - 1918, Lwów was incorporated in 1779 and under Austria Lwów was a Polish authonomy.

I'm sorry Nathan no matter how you try to bend history to fit your view Lwów was throught much of its history a Polish city, even occupying powers recognized it as such.

Why cant you just settle with the fact that we dont want to take it back? You just must attempt to rewrite history.

By the way Natha presidents of Lwów under Habsburg occupation:
Florian Ziemiałkowski (1871-1873)
Aleksander Jasiński (1874-1879)
Michał Gnoiński (1880-1882)
Wacław Dąbrowski (1883-1885)
Edmund Mochnacki (1886-1897)
Godzimir Nałęcz-Małachowski (1897-1905)
Michał Michalski (1905-1907)

All of them Poles, every single one of them a descendant of Polish nobility.
Borrka 37 | 594  
11 Oct 2009 /  #116
Really, I see a perfect analogy between Lviv and German city of Breslau which used to be Polish before Adam and Eva and now is Polish again due to Stalin's decision.

But before ww2 it was one of the main German centers of science and industry exactly like Lwow was the Polish one.

BTW. Nathan, using your logic Warsaw is an old Russian city - the first railroad was constructed under Russian administration lol.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Oct 2009 /  #117
Really, I see a perfect analogy between Lviv and German city of Breslau

More or less, and somehow we dont have beef with Germans coming to visit and so on (though i have MAJOR beef with Germans claiming Gdańsk or especially Poznań as historically German).

Yet people like Nathan feel compelled to take away our heritage. Lwów was as Polish as it can get, there's Polish statues to Polish poets, heroes and rulers on every town square.

Swallow your pride Nathan, Stalin gave you one of our finest cities and we dont want it back over Ukraines dead body, we respect the present situation, learn to respect its historical past.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 Oct 2009 /  #118
German city of Breslau which used to be Polish before Adam and Eva and now is Polish again due to Stalin's decision

Why do you dig stones in Gdansk and Poznan then? :)

BTW. Nathan, using your logic Warsaw is an old Russian city - the first railroad was constructed under Russian administration lol.

we built railways and roads to and from it

So the fact that Empireal Austrian State Railways built all these railroads is nothing compared to Sokrates "we built...to and from it". It is a fact. I don't bend anything here. If Austrians appear on this forum and make a claim like that, I won't say a word.

Also I don't deny Polish presence there for 444 years (look above), I mentioned it to Sokrates "6 times more" statement, which is a lie.

Polish had a big impact on L'viv history and culture - I don't deny it. But as you can see there is a great tendency of overblowing reality. Polish erected some beautiful artifacts. Just don't say that "we built ...90%" in city which was taxing Ukrainian majority during Habsburg empire for L'viv's budget. If you present that majority of Poles - 51% according to census conducted in 1931, you forget how intense Polish polonozation and pacification policies were in 1920-30s, driving Ukrainians out of the city. Look on petition of Supreme Ruthenian Council to Habsburgs to split Galicia in half, since Eastern part was predominantly Ukrainian and Western - Polish in 1848. So if you weren't majority of the population and didn't have your own country, how can you claim of building 90% of the city? Just be honest.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Oct 2009 /  #119
compared to Sokrates "we built...to and from it".

We built the main railway station and we financed it to boot.

Also I don't deny Polish presence there for 444 years (look above),

You dont count the partitions when Lwów was a Polish authonomy, Lwów was for 598 years governed by Poles, for a period of the partitions it was ruled by Austrians but also governed by Poles, Poles made up post offices, militia, decided on what and where to build, controlled the education, all of the city treasurers, chiefs of fire department and presidents of the city were Polish.

In WW2 the city was occupied from 1939 to 45 first by Germans then by Ukrainians but it was still non-the less Polish city which the Lwów uprising proves.

6 times more" statement, which is a lie.

No its the truth, the city was with a Ruthenian country for 90~ odd years and then was in Poland independent or authonomous for almost 600 years, according to mathematics that means that Poland owned Lwów six times longer then the Ruthenians did.

Polish had a big impact on L'viv history and culture

No, Polish had a big impact on Gdańsk history and culture, as far as Lwów we created its history and culture.

Polish erected some beautiful artifacts.

No Nathan, we created almost all of them. Ukrainian university, main railway station, the entire city centre, the town hall, the opera house, the high castle, Dominican Church, Jesuit Church, the gunpowder tower, the arsenal, the black house, the low castle, Saint Elisabeth Church, we paved the roads you're using today, we built the bridges that cross Lwóws waterways, the city is built by Poles, the 90% figure is a very conservative one, chances are its more than that.

was taxing Ukrainian majority during Habsburg empire

During Habsburg Empire Ukrainians constituted approximately 24% of the citys population as opposed to 53% of Poles, at no point in Lwóws histroy from XIV century to XX century were Ukrainians more then the 1/3 of the total population, Polish population fluctuated between half and more than the half of the cities population.

you forget how intense Polish polonozation and pacification policies were in 1920-30s, driving Ukrainians out of the city

Actually no one was driving you out of the city, the problem with you was that you just had to resort to violence and always got your ass kicked only to be sour afterwards.

You wanted our city, you tried to take it by force so of course we wouldnt stand around with our thumbs in our asses.

So if you weren't majority of the population and didn't have your own country,

We werent the majority in the country around Lwów, in Lwów we were always a majority, every history book confirms that, including yours.

how can you claim of building 90% of the city? Just be honest.

Because we were the ruling class and the majority within the city limits from shortly after we got it? Because all the buildings have the names of people who built them or ordered them built and they're Polish people? Because for a quarter of a century we've been the richest country in Europe and Lwów was our major development project and even when Poland fell Austria allowed us to govern the city.

If you want we can do a run by of Lwów historical sites and who built them, barring a few Ormian and German churches and Synagouges its all built by Poles, virtually everything built prior to 1939 is likely to be Polish in origin.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
11 Oct 2009 /  #120
Really, I see a perfect analogy between Lviv and German city of Breslau which used to be Polish before Adam and Eva

Adam and Eva were definitely german! God told me so...;)

By the way Natha presidents of Lwów under Habsburg occupation:

Well, when I bring a centuries old list from Germans in Danzig or Breslau from back as far as 1400 you discard all this but now demand from Nathan that he should accept a list from 1800???

It seems with you it can only be the Poles always be right, right? Everybody else is wrong and can't have a possible claim...

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