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Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land?


anielka 2 | 84  
3 Feb 2007 /  #31
that was the past David, so stop living in it.

I can see no evidence of him living in the past- he's simply quoting history. I cannot find sources to contradict him but would appreciate any pointers to references from You Miranda.
miranda  
3 Feb 2007 /  #32
I can see no evidence of him living in the past

I was referring to our conversation. Hisory is the past Anielka:)
anielka 2 | 84  
3 Feb 2007 /  #33
Lwów was a polish city on the Ukrainian land.

As far as I know Lwow was a Polish city, on Polish soil until in @1945 when the Communists gave Lwow to the Ukranians, and Wilno to the Lithuanians. At this time Ukraine was in effect a state of USSR.

Hisory is the past Anielka

History is based on facts, although I understand in your heart You regard Lwow as Ukranian, Poles regard it as their own- based on History,Regards.

I think there is more underlying the point of whether Ukraine stole Polish land or whether Lwow is Polish or Ukranian- it is how we see each other, starting for example in WW2 Ukranians tied Polish children around the base of trees with barbed wire, inevitably dying, popularly known as a "garland"(ref Wikipedia)- under the auspices of the Communists, since then it is well known they have been hand in glove with USSR who have supported them economically, I cannot see how Ukraine grew stronger -they simply survived under this regime. Pro -Russian President of Ukraine at the time,Kuchma reversed the original plan of the pipelines- in 2004- thereby allowing Russian oil south to the Black Sea for export. In 2005 pro-Western President of Ukraine Yuschenko reverted to the original plan: now the Ukraine proposes : in conjunction with Polska that the pipeline running through Ukraine, from Odessa be extended to Plock- effectively bypassing USSR. From Plockit can be connected to an existing network, carrying it to Gdansk, thence to Western Europa.

So is this proposition the Ukraine hopes will get them into the EU? What else do they have to offer? What will be the repercussions from USSR- aside from cutting off their oil supplies in the middle of Winter.Poles paid the 23% hike- can the Ukranians?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
4 Feb 2007 /  #34
starting for example in WW2 Ukranians tied Polish children around the base of trees with barbed wire, inevitably dying, popularly known as a "garland"(ref Wikipedia)- under the auspices of the Communists, since then it is well known they have been hand in glove with USSR who have supported them economically

If anything such things were done by people supported by nazis, commies only used that in their divide and conquer policy, of course making that 10 times bigger than It really was.
semper_malus - | 21  
4 Feb 2007 /  #35
s far as I know Lwow was a Polish city, on Polish soil until in @1945 when the Communists gave Lwow to the Ukranians, and Wilno to the Lithuanians. At this time Ukraine was in effect a state of USSR.

Yes but area around the Lwow was inhabitant most by the Ukrainians. And Ukraine was earlier (before 1945) state of USSR.
miranda  
4 Feb 2007 /  #36
I think there is more underlying the point of whether Ukraine stole Polish land or whether Lwow is Polish or Ukranian- it is how we see each other, starting for example in WW2 Ukranians tied Polish children around the base of trees with barbed wire, inevitably dying, popularly known as a "garland"(ref Wikipedia)- under the auspices of the Communists

I am sure it has happened. Both sides murdered each other. I am not here to defend either side, because I wasn't born at that time and I really don't know what choice I would make. The truth is that boths side don't have clean hands and I will loose here trying to even argue about it. I am not sure that Wikipedia is a reliable source though. I am not questioning that source but in order to understand what really happened between those two nations I would either have to lieve during those times or read, read and read. The history is a bit different for every family, because some had more luck than others.

If anything such things were done by people supported by nazis, commies only used that in their divide and conquer policy, of course making that 10 times bigger than It really was.

I am on Grzegorz side here.

under the auspices of the Communists, since then it is well known they have been hand in glove with USSR who have supported them economically,

I don't think that Ukraine had much choice in that situation. Besides, there are a lot of natural receources in Ukraine, so it wasn't really one sided situation.

I cannot see how Ukraine grew stronger -they simply survived under this regime.

So did any other former eastern european country for that matter. I was referring to the fact that is't an independant state, effected by Russian influences and interests, but so is Poland (other countries influances and interests).

So is this proposition the Ukraine hopes will get them into the EU?

I don't know - you have to find that answer with the Ukrainian gov.

What else do they have to offer?

I don't k now - see above:)

You regard Lwow as Ukranian, Poles regard it as their own

I really know better than to argue about the above - it doesn't lead anywhere and is a symbol of both sides being in conflict.
anielka 2 | 84  
4 Feb 2007 /  #37
I am not sure that Wikipedia is a reliable source

I chose Wikipedia because is a neutral source over a Polish source as this could be construed as slanted in the Poles favour.
"read,read, and read" is what I have done- it's not that difficult if one has the inclination:books or Internet, both easily accessible.

"history is a bit different for every family, because some had more luck than others"- I have taken into account my own family eg Mother, Father, Grandparents,etc tragedy by listening to the stories/opinions then verifying - to date I cannot find contradictions.
miranda  
4 Feb 2007 /  #38
"read,read, and read" is what I have done- it's not that difficult if one has the inclination:books or Internet, both easily accessible.
"

that's sound a little sarcastic or you just trying to repeat what I have said or, stating the obvious.

I have taken into account my own family eg Mother, Father, Grandparents,etc tragedy by listening to the stories/opinions then verifying - to date I cannot find contradictions.

I am interested in what you have found out.
anielka 2 | 84  
4 Feb 2007 /  #39
effected by Russian influences and interests, but so is Poland (other countries influances and interests).

Poland threw off Russian shackles, starting with Solidarnosc- to date they are now in the EU, others eg Russia, in conjunction with Ukraine refused to join.Poland is financially and economically better off than Ukraine eg Poland arranged for seaborne deliveries to help boost it's oil supply after Russia cut off deliveries via Druzhba pipeline. I doubt Ukraine would have finances - and this just 1 example.The EU's only terminal capabable of pumping seaborne crude shipments through the Druzhba pipeline is in Gdansk. Poles are ready to negotiate with Germany on this, but are stalling with the Ukranians on their proposition- perhaps because of Ukranian historical ties with Russia, perhaps because of the pro-Russian and pro-Western dissension in the Ukranian Govt. , the Govt. is perceived as less than trustworthy.

I don't know - you have to find that answer with the Ukrainian gov

: As an Ukranian Patriot I assumed You would know,even on a basic level how your Govt. works, yet You are unable to answer my queries.

You are right about the rich natural resouces-as has been pointed out by the Ukranians to the Poles re the rich soil and my post#37- perhaps this a symbol of the beginning of negotiations in regards to conflict.
miranda  
4 Feb 2007 /  #40
: As an Ukranian Patriot I assumed You would know,even on a basic level how your Govt. works, yet You are unable to answer my queries.

well, I don't agree, most of the poeple do not know what the governments polistics is and that applies to most of the countires:), but I am kind of getting tired of your superiority demure here and I belive that you are better off talking to yourself :) or, somebody else.
anielka 2 | 84  
4 Feb 2007 /  #41
qouote=miranda, Post #45 ]
, stating the obvious.[/quote]
You got me wrong- I am not being sarcastic towards You but I am stating the obvious- it doesn't cost much - time and inclination- for those interested eg public libraries( free)!

I am interested in what you have found out.

I assume You mean where I got info to back up my family's stories. Broadly speaking, I have read "Poland's Place in Europe General Sikorski and the Origin of the Oder-Niesse Line,1939-1943", "White Eagle, Red Star: The Polish Soviet War, 1919-1920", "An Army in Exile", "Rising' 44 The Battle for Warsaw", "The Murderers of Katyn", the Internet, "International Herald Tribune Europe" each address Ukraine in regards to Polska, I am sure there are other books which go deeper, I am too am interested in what You discover,Regards.
miranda  
4 Feb 2007 /  #42
You got me wrong- I am not being sarcastic towards You but I am stating the obvious- it doesn't cost much - time and inclination- for those interested eg public libraries( free)!

I am aware of that, but since I am a full time univesristy student and have tons to read I will not have time to read more. I read a few books a week, just to keep up with my courses. I also have an access to one of biggest academic libraries in the world.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
4 Feb 2007 /  #43
So is this proposition the Ukraine hopes will get them into the EU? What else do they have to offer?

Excuse me, but what Poland had to offer EU ? Not that much, so as for now any "superriority" to other nations is funny at best... or sad...
anielka 2 | 84  
4 Feb 2007 /  #44
well, I don't agree, most of the poeple do not know what the governments polistics is and that applies to most of the countires, but I am kind of getting tired of your superiority demure here and I belive that you are better off talking to yourself or, somebody else.

If You do not know the present political situation, perhaps You know Historical aspects between Ukraine and Poland that we could discuss.I see little evidence of either on your part

Your perception of my superior demure is disappointing. I approached this dicussion with Historical facts and knowledge: faced with this you sulked and terminated the discussion. Pity.
miranda  
4 Feb 2007 /  #45
I have never expressed a desire to have a duscussion with you, but since you quoted part of my conversation with David, I felt that I had to explain what meant by it. I really don't have time right now to disuss anything since I am beind with my readings and I would be happy to do it in the future, perhaps 2 year time - since my degree is my priority.
Kochana_Babcia 2 | 70  
4 Feb 2007 /  #46
Historical aspects between Ukraine and Poland

I get the impression that you harbor a dislike for Ukrainians..if I'm mistaken..please do not get offended.

I know that Poland and Ukraine had problems years ago but I thought that by now, the wounds would have been healed. Maybe not with the older generation who lived through the difficulties but with the younger generation.
anielka 2 | 84  
4 Feb 2007 /  #47
have never expressed a desire to have a duscussion with you,

:Point taken
Po

I really don't have time right now to disuss anything since I am beind with my readings

Apolgies for taking your time.

I get the impression that you harbor a dislike for Ukrainians

Dear Kochana-Babcia, I assume You have read all my posts: from the bickering over Lwow, the atrocities of WW2, kissing Communists feet over many years in order for the USSR in order to support them- these observations were examined from an Historical point of view- not as a personal dislike for the Ukrainians-further their newest proposition to the Poles re the pipeline, along with clamoring to enter the EU is met with caution - for obvious reasons. Regards.

Excuse me, but what Poland had to offer EU ? Not that much,

Since 1989: The strategic objectiveof Polish policy was membership into the EU.
In 1990:They filed an application to begin negotiations with Europa Communities.The Poles were aware of the required high standards of the EU and began preparing, rectifying the problems.

In 1994: the Agreement came into effect, so on 1st May 2004, they were smoothly accepted into the EU, having had in effect 10 years to prepare.

Excuse me, but what Poland had to offer EU ? Not that much

1/ Fruit: Poland in 2003 was the largest producer of apples, 60% were processed into concentrate, the rest exported. Same with strawberries,cherries,raspberries, etc.
2/ Veg, main export were potatoes, beetroot, sugarbeet.
3/ Rye, barley, oats another main export.
4/ In 2004, 53,000 tons of cheese were exported- 72% higher than in 2003, 33% of Edam ended up in Finland.
5/ The quality of beef, pig, and poultry rose sharply in demand, leading to an expansion of export. So , there was a rapid increase in exports of meat, milk, fruit & veg as on average they were 30% cheaper than those produced in the EU. The common market as well as foreign investment generates growth.

6/ Heavy industry.Copper mines producing non ferrous metals for export and ferrous( nickel, cobalt, iron) in moderation.
7/In 2005, the main producer of yachts(up to 7.5m) in Europa.
8/ Manufacturing and technical skills of cars, electronics and chemicals.
7/ Confectionary-exported.
8/ Polish beer-exported.
9/ Crystal and jewellry-exported.
10/ Education: amongst of the best educated societies in Europa, the Uni's and technical colleges producing students well acquainted with foreign languages, IT, Biotechnology, etc- the quality of Polish scientific and technical achievement reflected by the worlds largest corporations locating their R&D centres there.These graduates, with the research and entrepenerial skills can be harnessed to create new business focus on

EU market, Professionals can look abroad for jobs, prosperity.
11/ Young educated workers- in view of the aging EU societies and willing to work in different EU sectors are regarded as cheap labour.
12/ Tourism.
13/ The willingness to work closely with the other nations within the EU- despite differences.
Huegel 1 | 296  
5 Feb 2007 /  #48
Well said Anielka. :)

13/ The willingness to work closely with the other nations within the EU- despite differences.

You see, compromise is not a dirty word! :)
anielka 2 | 84  
5 Feb 2007 /  #49
Czesc, Pan Huegel- and Thank-You:) :)
Anielka
miranda  
5 Feb 2007 /  #50
13/ The willingness to work closely with the other nations within the EU- despite differences.

You see, compromise is not a dirty word!

nice one H:) :)
Sulamir  
6 Feb 2007 /  #51
I believe Lwow/Lviv belongs to Ukrainians as much as to Poles.
I'm not a historian so I won't quote any smart sources here, but if one used some logic here you could agree that:

1 ) Poles and Ukrainians have common Slavic roots-namely we are brothers and sisters
2 ) We are neighbours always were and will be
3 ) We have a hate/love relationship
Poles/Ukrainians would take each others posessions from the dawn of time believing it's rightfully theirs, eg. Lviv was founded by a Kievien Rus's Prince and named after his son Lew, right? True, but the fact that this RUS Prince just invaded this land which was in Polish hands-Czervienskie Grody and land around them, or taken back depending which side of fance you look from, would make the act of building a new Horod (Lviv) filled with his fighters as an atempt to keep what you just took from your new enemies the Poles.

HOW did POLES become the enemies of RUS?
RUS was a name Slavic people would give to Vikings from Sweden-namely RUS means Pirate; Vikings from Sweden go all the way from Novorgod to Kijow installing themselves as the Lords of the the land and the Slaves. Viking Rulers give orders to attack and take land from other Slaves, these vikings have slavic wifes, whose children with time speak the language of their mothers, but continue the haterage ideology of their pirate fathers.

HERE we go POLES become the Enemies of Pirates. Before this pirates there was no division between Poles and Ukrainians we were all Slaves speaking one language, daughters and sons of one slavic parents-look at language, traditions, folk dress, and old believes. As such Poles would live in Ukrainian Lands and Ukrainians would live in Polish lands no restrictions as one people and one land. If you tell me this is an ethnic Ukrainian land I say its ethnic to Poles as much as Ukrainians. These lands were stretched as far as East Germany. Some people believe we came here together with Attilla the Hun who kicked Germanic ars in IV century. This may be, but whereever we came from we came here all together as one family Ukrainians,Poles, Lemko,Sorbs, Croats ETC..
ogorek - | 165  
6 Feb 2007 /  #52
Sulamir for the new President of UkranoPolska!!!
miranda  
6 Feb 2007 /  #53
An intersting concept I must say:)
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544  
7 Feb 2007 /  #54
3 ) We have a hate/love relationship

I like the way you put it, but you are right. We do have a hate/love relationship. It's good that it's more love than hate now. Pozdrawiam. :)
ale39  
9 Feb 2007 /  #55
well Ola, I am Ukrainian born a raised in Poland and i will always consider Lwow as an Ukrainian city, however I know that there were a lot of Polish living there, as well as russians receantly, Jewish and so on.
It is an Ukrainian city and it always will be.

As far as Polishness of Lwów is concerned, according to the census from 1920 in Lwów there were 227521 people and among them :
136519 Polish
60431 Jews
19866 Ukrainians

roztocze.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=
nataliya  
5 Jul 2007 /  #56
Attention with Ukrainians!
nataliya  
5 Jul 2007 /  #58
I think, you have forgotten, that when the Polyany savage tribes were running in the fields, our Kyiv has been already the state of the most powerful country in the Europe. 10th century.

And we appeared to be slaves of the less cultivated, but more savage neibours - poles, russians. One thing I will never forgive to poles, is their comportement on our blessing land.

F.....ing LYAHY!!!!! Viva Ukraina!!!XXXX
Lady in red  
5 Jul 2007 /  #59
One thing I will never forgive to poles, is their comportement on our blessing land.

That's your view and your right to hold such a view. Just don't be so surprised that everyone will not agree with you.

I don't agree with you .
southern 75 | 7,096  
5 Jul 2007 /  #60
our Kyiv has been already the state of the most powerful country in the Europe. 10th century.

As a capital of russian empire.

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