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Why we talk about Nazis not Germans


Patrycja19  
29 Sep 2008 /  #91
Your grandmother was Polish (probably?)?.

my grandmother in law is german ( my husbands grandmother)

my grandmothers ( both polish) :)

Ofcourse those who didnt support him were not in comfortable situations..

thats how it was for them..she pretty much said they would kill those who
didnt support him.

I have some history aswell about this war...

tell us
Lodz_The_Boat  
29 Sep 2008 /  #92
Read my Post# 34 and 36 on page 2 here dear... you will see some clips... some very important ones.

Its about my grandfather... how he saw the events that changed his life... and how I saw that fear mixed with rage and anger all over him. He couldnt tolerate the word 'Germany'.

My father ofcourse... have done business with Germans and he does think like me that this is a new generation and we must move forward with the feeling of friendship and brotherhood. But does these change the facts? History cannot be wiped out.

Germans often these days either deny or cut aside from that dirty past. But its just the fact that they have played their parts. This great Evil called hitler did awaken monsters inside most of them. A big most of them.

There are Jewish people our family knows who have lost all. Miserable and pathetic were the conditions of the survivors. They also had stories to tell in which they clearly mention how enormous and how many in numbers were the Germans 'who hated' were. Such big numbers that the good souls were hard to trace.
Warsaw8  
29 Sep 2008 /  #93
The studio audience were asked to say whether they would vote for a politician that made these promises, the majority voted yes. They revealed the name of the politician who had made these promises. It was Adolf Hitler, long before the war. The audience were shocked. When politicians make promises, people will listen to the ones that benefit them.

Yea but the difference is, that the Fuhrer actually delivered those promises. Creating over 1 million jobs in the 1st year as chancellor...Hard to slap the hand that feeds yah.............While years before the Traitors of Versailles-France and Briton did all they could to keep the people of german nations down and starved to death.
Matyjasz  
29 Sep 2008 /  #94
There is a tendency to depict pre-WWII Germans as Hitler’s innocent victims and Adolf as the only guilty man of the whole evil that happened during the war. I'm not entirely convinced about it though as one man couldn't have done it himself. And Hitler didn't only promise full employment and better public transport. To quote our friend BBoy:

Well...for many Germans he was the saviour! The situation after WWI was downright ****** for many, Hitler promised to make it right again...

Of course what's good for the Germans wasn't necessarily so for those that regained independence as a result of the treaty of Versailles. For Poland it only meant trouble.

The whole situation is complex though. I don't believe that all Germans at that time were fanatic mass killers just like I don't believe that they were people of innocent intentions that merely got manipulated by Hitler and that he is the only person to blame. The truth is somewhere in between.

And to blame only the Nazis is just a way to better the image of Germans this days. I never heard people blaming Napoleonics for the misery inflicted upon people of Europe during the Napoleon wars. They were French damn it. But than again, no nation in the world got as bad press as the Germans got just after the WWII, even though Germany wasn't the first country to start a war and do ethnic cleansing.

Not that they didn't earn for this image…
Lodz_The_Boat  
29 Sep 2008 /  #95
Germany wasn't the first country

Yes... but we are talking about modern history...

In the dark times... or pre-19th century history we have pariods which we can say were periods of the way back. WW2 is not such an old event. Its a great big scar on the very cheeks of the modern man.
Matyjasz  
29 Sep 2008 /  #96
Yes... but we are talking about modern history...

When did the modern times start?
yehudi  
29 Sep 2008 /  #97
The tendency to focus blame on Hitler and Nazism is obviously to allow other germans to claim innocence. But there is another strange phenomenom that works the other way: On a visit at the Auschwitz museum I heard an American lady say "We're all guilty for Auschwitz. All of mankind." She thought she was being very philosophical and compassionate. But by diluting the guilt to something vague she was absolving the people who did it. The Germans. Hundreds of thousands of ordinary people, soldiers, police, judges and industrialists were willing participants in the holocaust. The german nazi program had enthusiastic supporters and helpers among peoples all over europe, but it was Germany as a nation that initiated, supported and executed the "final solution" and the conquering of most of europe. No german alive then can look in the mirror and deny this.
Lodz_The_Boat  
29 Sep 2008 /  #98
When did the modern times start?

With the Industrial Era.
Seanus  
29 Sep 2008 /  #99
Yes yehudi, there was a majority who voted for Hitler but that wasn't unanimity. There were those who dissented, albeit hush hush.

The American woman had a point. The world community had to stamp it out ASAP and political concerns superceded humanitarian ones. America showed the power it had in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The problem was finger pointing.

The fact is, there was indifference, even glee, that Jews were being killed. A ridiculous state of affairs really. There wasn't enough of a vested interest in the initial termination phase. The international community can hang its head in shame rather than basking in its post-war glory.
yehudi  
29 Sep 2008 /  #100
Yes yehudi, there was a majority who voted for Hitler but that wasn't unanimity.

It was not a majority in 1933 - he was appointed chancellor because of the complicated coalition politics of germany at that time. But the vote isn't the only thing that indicates support. After Hitler was in power, his popularity and the support for his insane program grew till it became almost universal in germany. And then Austria enthusiastically unifed with germany. By then the whole "Volk" was on the bandwagon. Funny how they went on and on about the "Volk", and then when the war was lost it became just a few individuals who did the nasty stuff and the "Volk" suddenly disappeared.

The international community can hang its head in shame rather than basking in its post-war glory.

True. But that point shouldn't divert the attention from the actual perpetrators. If everyone is guilty then no one is guilty.
Seanus  
29 Sep 2008 /  #101
Well, I'm still disappointed in the 33 or 43%, whatever the figure was. £odz is right, Mein Kampf was published b4. I guess it was in widespread circulation. Now that I think about it, Somerled had a point about the sheep. It was an easy solution.

Well, most of the actual perpetrators were either brought to justice at Nuremberg, or have died. Eichmann was caught, the Mossad was just too smart for him.

As I said b4, no RIP for hateful minds!!
southern  
29 Sep 2008 /  #102
Nazism could arise only in Germany

how about Italy?

No.Mussolini did not even take measures against Jews.(he proposed some law after huge pressure from Berlin,he was reluctant to oppose Jews).
ParisJazz  
29 Sep 2008 /  #103
Its a great big scar on the very cheeks of the modern man

Allow me to disagree. Most people have moved on. Its only the Poles and the Russians that keep on banging on WWII forever, and ever, and ever..

It's like as if the war ended in 1945, and then u lot went into collective coma until 1990, u then woke up with WWII timeline still so vivid in your heads.

I say move on, get a life.

I suppose people in the west have had about 45 years more than u did to indulge themselves, enjoy liberty and the fruits of private property and free enterprise, which by now have made WWII a distant memory.

PJ
Bratwurst Boy  
29 Sep 2008 /  #104
Most people have moved on. Its only the Poles and the Russians that keep on banging on WWII forever, and ever, and ever..

Maybe they need that???

*waves back to Pat*
Lodz_The_Boat  
29 Sep 2008 /  #105
WWII a distant memory.

It will remain a fresh memory...it should remain a fresh memory. Not for the purpose of hatred, but the purpose of education.

The Dutch Broadcasted in BBC once (on D-Day) to record all the events in diaries and letters etc... so that our future generations read... read and remember... remember and learn...learn and be aware of how sick and sadistic racial prejudice and religious hatred can be. How an Evil might wake up the secret devil in the hearts of sleeping conscience...

We have new immigrants in Europe... we have new minorities....we have new times... new problems... but we need to understand our past...accept it... and then join hands knowing what we should do and shouldnt do.

This WW2 is a lesson... a great lesson and must be remembered.

People have not forgotten...those who have been effected could never forget. It will not be forgotten.

I say move on, get a life.

If you read the above posts...its not a hate thread against germans...but a fact file of our dark past...
Bratwurst Boy  
29 Sep 2008 /  #106
What are you talking about Lodz???
Who wants it to be forgotten??? Who tries to forget??? Is someone forcing you to???

What is your or Lukasz problem???

Call it German or Nazi or whatever you want, who cares!
BubbaWoo  
29 Sep 2008 /  #107
learn and be aware of how sick and sadistic racial prejudice and religious hatred can be

judging by the number of racist, homophobic and anti semetic posts made by your countrymen on this forum its quite clear that this approach doesnt work and that many have infact learnt fuk all

leave the past behind and drag yourselves into the twenty first century
celinski  
29 Sep 2008 /  #108
It's like as if the war ended in 1945, and then u lot went into collective coma until 1990, u then woke up with WWII timeline still so vivid in your heads.

While the "Holocaust" was able to speak of the crimes directed on Jewish, the Polish in "occupied Poland" had to remain silient. While Germany took responsability, (with Soviets as judge and juror) the Russian's refuse to look at their role. While Germany showed remorse over Hitler actions, Russia to this day idolize Stalin.

Although today the lies are being brought to light, Russia's flaunting Stalinism in Poland's face is adding insult to injury.
Lodz_The_Boat  
29 Sep 2008 /  #109
What are you talking about Lodz???

I was replying to PJ

your countrymen

I am not talking about the hooligans. They will remain there whether we forget or not. Probably they know less anyways.

Its just that this is a lesson. A lesson which prevents us from going into the words of more genious hooligans.

drag yourselves into the twenty first century

We are there. And we dont hate Germans (atleast I dont).
Bratwurst Boy  
29 Sep 2008 /  #110
And we dont hate Germans (atleast I dont).

And even if you would WHO THE F*UCK CARES!!!!

(you are repeating that to often for my taste btw. If there is something suspicious to me it's that lefty goodytwogoodshoes "I love you all"-attitude, it's always a big fat lie!)
Lodz_The_Boat  
29 Sep 2008 /  #111
lefty

I have no interest in politics.

You attitude and language is not to the mark for a decent conversation. I have nothing to say... feel the way your feelings come about!... probably you cant help it.
Bratwurst Boy  
29 Sep 2008 /  #112
I have no interest in politics.

But somehow you manage to fill the pages here anyway...

probably you cant help it.

Yeah...must be that german soul thingie...can you see my fiery eyes as I type???
z_darius  
29 Sep 2008 /  #113
She thought she was being very philosophical and compassionate. But by diluting the guilt to something vague she was absolving the people who did it.

Like some others, I disagree with your take.
Humans are blood thirsty. Death is in our genes. We kill others for whatever justification we can put in a poem, political speech or religious writing.

Sure, Germans did it and they paid for it. Still the atrocities of WW2 was a collective effort, so to speak, of all mankind, including the ALL victim nations. Of course, this approach is not very usable for lawsuits and financial gain, so individualizing the culprits is but a tactical move.

Other than on a philosophical level, serious mistakes have been made by politicians, which allowed Nazism to thrive, and kept refugees from reaching the safety of some countries. And these were not Germans at all.
ParisJazz  
29 Sep 2008 /  #114
so that our future generations read... read and remember... remember and learn...learn and be aware of how sick and sadistic racial prejudice and religious hatred can be. How an Evil might wake up the secret devil in the hearts of sleeping conscience...

If anything that everyone should learn from WWII, communism and other other atrocities, is to fear your own government more than anything and to never depend on them for anything. Governments are incompetent, corrupt, expansive and coercive, and only the sick and mental accesses the ultimate power.

And frankly, no point in big solemn speeches, people have already understood that. Over a million Pole chose not to wait for their government to sort out their country and voted with their feet. Most of them will never come back to settle. And this in time of peace.

Also the only way of making sure "this will never happen again" is to make sure to have the means to f off right in time before it happens.

PJ
OP Lukasz  
29 Sep 2008 /  #115
It is not about money it is about history.

I suppose people in the west have had about 45 years more than u did to indulge themselves, enjoy liberty and the fruits of private property and free enterprise, which by now have made WWII a distant memory.

We discusse which term is more proper Nazi or German.

Some people disagree with this issue so some people care. I will stick to my version.
celinski  
29 Sep 2008 /  #116
It helps to not call both Soviets and Nazi's.

Gazprom Changed Venture in Italy
Gazprom will set to direct shipment of gas to power plants of Italy from October 1, supplying 900 million cu meters a year till 2022. The supplier is a venture, where Gazprom is represented by German ZMB and A2A and Iride will stand for Italy. It is the first accomplished deal of Russia's gas monopoly on retail gas market of Italy. Another project, the joint venture with Enia Energia, hasn't materialized.

kommersant.com/page.asp?id=1033083

Russia Rides the German Rails

Russian Railways intends to buy 5 percent of the shares in the German Deutsche Bahn railway, when it holds its IPO in the coming weeks, Russian Railways president Vladimir Yakunin told The International Herald Tribune. "For us, integration is an essential part of our strategy. Obtaining a stake in Deutsche Bahn's international public offering would be a good investment," Yakunin said. He did not comment on the deal further.

kommersant.com/p1031475/r_529/Deutsche_Bahn_IPO_Russian_Railways/
ParisJazz  
29 Sep 2008 /  #117
We discusse which term is more proper Nazi or German.

Well then, how about using the "Krauts" instead ?
OP Lukasz  
29 Sep 2008 /  #118
Ok to make thing clear. We strongly disagree with Germans on Nord Stream and some other issues. Germans have new debate about history (it is fact) and we have the right to debate about it. I think that many facts are not well known. I don't have pure hate towards Germans (as ethnic group) many of mine friends have German surnames (I live in PoznaƄ).

We discusse history.
ShelleyS  
29 Sep 2008 /  #120
Who is "We" ?

Pff, you never heard of the "Royal" "We" ;-)

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