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Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?


OP freebird  3 | 532  
9 Jun 2009 /  #181
what about this Sokrates
The UNO, the successor of the Geneva League of Nations, formally established on August 24, 1945
by less than 50 Nations, was dominated by the communist Block from the very beginning of its inception at San Francisco.
And it was the communist Block, a communist Poland in particular, that pressured the other Members of the "free world" to wipe the Free State of Danzig off the Maps, and sanction

" Genocide", better known today as 'ethnic cleansing' of her people.

"Genocide" and wholesale Terror, waged against the innocent, helpless and defenseless civilians.
Such Terror campaign had been going on since early April of 1945 in the territory of the Free State of Danzig, not only there, but and in all other German Provinces east of the Oder/Neisse line as well.

Please read the whole thing before w start discussing it
Salomon  2 | 436  
9 Jun 2009 /  #182
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausländerkinder-Pflegestätte
OP freebird  3 | 532  
9 Jun 2009 /  #183
pseudo-historical trash

and I say that what you've learned in your communist books is a damn lie.
I tried to run a reasonable discussion with you Poles but I see it's impossible like always. No matter what the subject is Poles know it all better. You're pathetic LMAO
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
9 Jun 2009 /  #184
And it was the communist Block, a communist Poland in particular, that pressured the other Members of the "free world" to wipe the Free State of Danzig off the Maps, and sanction.

Like i said the source you posted is a revisionist pseudo historical bit of trash that blatantly lies about historically confirmed facts, after WW2 there was no free state of Gdansk thats for one, second Poland never advocated genocide against Germans, there's no documented evidence for that with the explicit reason of Poland simply not doing it and apart from revisionists no one in their right mind claims so.

The primary culprits were the red army, i cannot adress this fragment because it could just as well claim "Poles are from Mars" claiming Poles did murder or advocated murder of Germans is not only a lie but a completely baseless one.

Now could you please give us a credible source with something documented rather than this speculative revisionist pamphlet?

and I say that what you've learned in your communist books is a damn lie.

Buddy i'm 26 by the time i've learned there were completely different books but thats pointless since there's no documents to prove or back up what you're sying, what you're presenting here is baseless bias both yours and of that ridiculous pamphlet.

I tried to run a reasonable discussion

No, you attempted a nasty piece of revisionism based on German apologetic pseudo-history without any historical basis whatsoever, to discuss it takes more then your personal opinion which by itself is fairly worthless especially when fueled by bias and prejudice.

You're pathetic LMAO

We're pathetic because you make up stuff as you go along?:)))
Salomon  2 | 436  
9 Jun 2009 /  #185
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_in_Germany_during_World_War_ II

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_through_labour
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11831  
9 Jun 2009 /  #186
No matter what the subject is Poles know it all better. You're pathetic LMAO

I told you so...

(And then they scream when other countries history doesn't fit with theirs...and then they protest and throw shoes...and Europe rolls their eyes again...)
Salomon  2 | 436  
9 Jun 2009 /  #187
Of course we should all move on but we can't change the history. What is more I find it disguisting that somebody tries to change it ...
Ironside  50 | 12387  
9 Jun 2009 /  #188
maybe for you, I bet most of people would agree with me (at least non Poles).

Well, all this because I called your bluff ?
You come here all mighty and you dare to lecture me ?
You who's only point in debate was - so Germans can too!
How much one has to know to say it? evidently not much!
Poland western border is not of our make, and WWII was because Germans started it !
Now, I'm saying that there are some lands which should belong to Poland - est!
And I don't see a reason to give to Germans their lands, which now belong to Poland!
For simple reason, their policy in occupied Poland, they caused so much harm and 50years of Soviet occupation that those lands are compensation.
You want to talk about ethnic cleansing lets talk Vietnam!!!!!
Want discuss something behave as adult!
You read something - hurray!!!- and so what ?
Where are your arguments ? Crap!? you talking crap!
You wouldn't find your ass without map when it cames to history!
OP freebird  3 | 532  
9 Jun 2009 /  #189
And I don't see a reason to give to Germans their lands, which now belong to Poland!

This is all I was saying the whole freaking time, at least you admitted that this land used to belong to the Germans. This is all I wanted to hear. No one said you got to give it back to them.

If you read my posts you would know that it was exactly what I was saying.

Where are your arguments ? Crap!? you talking crap!

you wouldn't see any arguments even if someone would pin it up right in front of your face.
All you guys want is "my way or no way". Guess what, you ain't getting it. You don't accept other people and their opinions and this is your biggest problem.

You wouldn't find your ass without map when it cames to history!

I know it's not written by Poles so obviously it's not your history, LMAO

You want to talk about ethnic cleansing lets talk Vietnam!!!!!

Oh yeah, let's talk about it, our now Polish friends with their owners the Soviets together with the north Vietnamese against us. Let's talk about our friendship, lol.
Ironside  50 | 12387  
9 Jun 2009 /  #190
This is all I was saying the whole freaking time, at least you admitted that this land used to belong to the Germans. This is all I wanted to hear. No one said you got to give it back to them.

Well, I think it a case of the mistaken identity as I never denied it !
Its not a secret you know?
If you read my posts you would know!

All you guys want is "my way or no way". Guess what, you ain't getting it. You don't accept other people and their opinions and this is your biggest problem.

Are you talking to me??
or to a mirror ?
))))))

I know it's not written by Poles so obviously it's not your history, LMAO

Now you are ranting, are you sick?

Oh yeah, let's talk about it, our now Polish friends with their owners the Soviets together with the north Vietnamese against us. Let's talk about our friendship, lol.

What friendship ? We paid you for F-15 old junk about 4bilion $ !
We spend a lot helping you with yours wars!
And all we get is **** and then more **** from likes of you !!!
Sure as hell you aint our friends !
Tell me what were you doing in Nam ?
killing women and children ? And than you come and lecture us hahaha !
Don't be surprised if someone will call you arrogant and hypocrite.
OP freebird  3 | 532  
9 Jun 2009 /  #191
arrogant

it's hard not to be whene you face people like you

Tell me what were you doing in Nam ?
killing women and children ?

no, I was killing Poles and Soviets fighting along with north Vietnamese, do you like it better now. You asked for it you damn communist bastard so you got it.
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
10 Jun 2009 /  #192
Oh yeah, let's talk about it, our now Polish friends with their owners the Soviets together with the north Vietnamese against us. Let's talk about our friendship, lol.

Who's your friend? Personally i think that USa is a pile of shite and Poland gives US too much money, support and attention, we ought to enter a businesslike relationship with you instead of wiping your ass, i definitely do not consider myself friend of America or Americans who by and large are a moronic breed.

(And then they scream when other countries history doesn't fit with theirs...and then they protest and throw shoes...and Europe rolls their eyes again...)

Yes given great efforts your people go to diminish the fact that your nation commited greatest genocide in the history of our species and that families of virtually every german had direct or indirect part in it you're the one to talk :)

I know it's not written by Poles so obviously it's not your history, LMAO

No but since its also not written by you Gdańsk remains a historically Polish city and Wrocław remains built by Czechs not by Germans, of course you're here to prove your point of view which is detached from any historical credibility but hey, its yours :)

You asked for it you damn communist bastard so you got it.

You're a moron mate but besides that, why are you here, on Polish forums? Whats your purpose here?
Ironside  50 | 12387  
10 Jun 2009 /  #193
it's hard not to be whene you face people like you

Come now you are gettin tit for tat !Do you think I should bow cause yo are an American?

no, I was killing Poles and Soviets fighting along with north Vietnamese, do you like it better now. You asked for it you damn communist bastard so you got it.

If you had faced Poles you would not be here ...most likely you run for your life and then get even with some unarmed peasant and then they give you a medal!!!

And if Poles were communist you would have lost a cold war!

I told you so...

Putting petrol into a fire ? Germans !
Nathan  18 | 1349  
10 Jun 2009 /  #194
Ironside

Ironside, you are a piece of work, you know that?! Freebird presented you with facts about Gdansk and its history and you jumped to Vietnam and stuff. It is history and Gdansk was German by origin, population, architecture...Its population was predominantly German the last 1000 years and there is nothing to be defensive about. I don't think anyone is going to take it from you. I didn't have time to learn more about beautiful Marien church in Gdansk (I saw it last summer) - now I know a bit more. Germans built it in 1224 and most of the writings inside are done in German. The city was in Polish hands less than 300 years and in that short period majority of its habitants were not Polish. I know it is tough to accept the truth. Sometimes, I put myself likewise, but facts are facts and you can't do a thing about it.

On the other hand, it is so easy for you to justify everything , even when defending two different points contradict themselves. Sometimes history will catch you again. Pray it won't make you bleed because of your blind greedy stupidity.
Ironside  50 | 12387  
10 Jun 2009 /  #195
Come on Nathan, its not about Gdansk, he implied that Poland has something to do with ethnic cleansing and then again his attitude, don't know some bad experiences from Poland, but smart people are avoiding generalization.

And if justice prevail Poland will get what rightly hers !
Socrates
They are just people, nothing wrong with them!
It's they federal government and ruling class ......
As for friends - not pay, no gain - our politician are the ones to be smitten !
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
10 Jun 2009 /  #196
Freebird presented you with facts about Gdansk and its history and you jumped to Vietnam and stuff.

Actually thats the problem, Freebird presented a lot of his own opinionated rubbish and an article that blatantly ignores the uncomfortable facts from Gdańsk' history, such as it being built by Poles.

It is history and Gdansk was German by origin, population, architecture...Its population was predominantly German the last 1000 years

No wonder Ukraine has almost no culture :)))

According to archaeologists, a stronghold was built at Gdańsk in the 980s by Mieszko I of Poland,

First recorded settlement, oh we named it Gdańsk as well :))

Germans built it in 1224 and most of the writings inside are done in German. The city was in Polish hands less than 300 years and in that short period majority of its habitants were not Polish.

Quite the opposite, the city was in Polish hands untill late 16th century, even though it was for a time under Teutonic rule the population and city goverment was Polish, the majority of Polish troops serving for the Teutonic order came from the region of Gdańsk :)))

but facts are facts and you can't do a thing about it

Except present them here so you wouldnt be able to rewrite history, ps Lwów is a historically Polish city too, enjoy it mate your military spending is twice smaller than the Polish one :)))
OP freebird  3 | 532  
10 Jun 2009 /  #197
such as it being built by Poles.

the biggest crap I ever heard about, lol

No wonder Ukraine has almost no culture :)))

yeah, Ukraine has no culture because Ukrainians disagree with Poles, lol

First recorded settlement, oh we named it Gdańsk as well :))

check it out before you make yourself look stupid. The name Gdansk was never mentioned in the past centuries, not even on Danzig coins from the Polish occupation period. It was Gedanensis.

Quite the opposite, the city was in Polish hands untill late 16th century, even though it was for a time under Teutonic rule the population and city goverment was Polish, the majority of Polish troops serving for the Teutonic order came from the region of Gdańsk :)))

go sell your post communist books. It's time to learn the real history

Except present them here so you wouldnt be able to rewrite history, ps Lwów is a historically Polish city too, enjoy it mate your military spending is twice smaller than the Polish one :)))

when I was in Krasnik area there was a village (really close to it) where people spoke Ukrainian, I wonder why?
aphrodisiac  11 | 2427  
10 Jun 2009 /  #198
go sell your post communist books. It's time to learn the real history

be gentle with him since not much history was being thought in Polish schools during the communist times and he is obviously a good example of such a neglects.
Torq  
10 Jun 2009 /  #199
such as it being built by Poles.

the biggest crap I ever heard about, lol
(...) go sell your post communist books.

Well, you better write a letter of complaint to Wikipedia in that case...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gdansk

...don't forget to call them communist too :)
Seanus  15 | 19666  
10 Jun 2009 /  #200
Communism and disinformation went hand-in-hand. Just look at the need to clutch onto power, they will distort and fabricate at the drop of a hat. When I read Scottish history, for example, I was mindful of the tendency to glorify things and twist the real impact.

For all the ambitions of the likes of Piłsudski and Dmowski, they were largely ineffectual in acheiving their objectives due to external factors. Nonetheless, their efforts were greatly appreciated and rightly so.
Torq  
10 Jun 2009 /  #201
Communism and disinformation went hand-in-hand.

That's true. However, in the 10th century when Poles founded Gdańsk,
communist were only a very small and insignificant minority LOL
Seanus  15 | 19666  
10 Jun 2009 /  #202
I was talking about more recent times. Communists have played a part of the national fabric for quite some time in Poland. Look even as close as 1999 when Kwaśniewski was in. He was off saluting Ukrainian communists with vodka shot after vodka shot.

Look in 2009, you will find some too.
Nathan  18 | 1349  
10 Jun 2009 /  #203
However, in the 10th century when Poles founded Gdańsk,
communist were only a very small and insignificant minority LOL

History wasn't made until 20th century, Torq. But it is good to know more about Gdansk. There is no historical support whatsoever about Polish origin of the city. It is clear that it is full of German history and traditions. And now after horrible "purge" of Germans civilians by Poles in 1945, the city still has many German-speaking citizens.

Actually thats the problem, Freebird presented a lot of his own opinionated rubbish and an article that blatantly ignores the uncomfortable facts from Gdańsk' history, such as it being built by Poles.

I think he presented in your face unconfortable facts.

No wonder Ukraine has almost no culture :)))

"Jadzia suknie polokala
w oko Jasia mucha wpala - hopca-ca"
You are far ahead of the whole world. ;)

Quite the opposite, the city was in Polish hands untill late 16th century, even though it was for a time under Teutonic rule the population and city goverment was Polish, the majority of Polish troops serving for the Teutonic order came from the region of Gdańsk :)))

Who are you talking to, kids?! Never heard of more blunt lie in my life.

enjoy it mate your military spending is twice smaller than the Polish one :)))

Because we produce our own tanks and don't buy them from Germans. It is good that you replaced your TH-1(;) with German Leopard-2.
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
10 Jun 2009 /  #204
the biggest crap I ever heard about, lol

So wikipedia and every history book (apart from the German ones) as well as every historical source about Gdańsk is lying? I'm sorry but Americans on this forum are really morons, together with JohnP you're probably the most preposterous poster here:)

yeah, Ukraine has no culture because Ukrainians disagree with Poles, lol

Or because it exists as a state or nation for less than 2 centuries, US is young and has no significant cultural achievement as well:)

check it out before you make yourself look stupid. The name Gdansk was never mentioned in the past centuries, not even on Danzig coins from the Polish occupation period. It was Gedanensis.

Really? Gall Anonimus as well as a number of other medieval chronicers do mention it quite a lot, in fact the name Danzig becomes official only in late 16 century when Germans become an influential group :)

go sell your post communist books. It's time to learn the real history

I'm sorry but these are the facts in every history book worldwide that treats on the subject, not only Polish ones :) Also calling people who single handedly toppled communism as communist is not very fitting is it? But then again you're an idiot hellbent on insulting us once your lack of reason was revealed.

I was talking about more recent times. Communists have played a part of the national fabric for quite some time in Poland. Look even as close as 1999 when Kwaśniewski was in. He was off saluting Ukrainian communists with vodka shot after vodka shot.

Of course but the fact remains they were enforced upon us and it took military force to even keep Poland communist, once this military force proved unable to help communism was toppled in an eyeblink so calling the country communist..well he's an American so i'm not even mad :)
Nathan  18 | 1349  
10 Jun 2009 /  #205
Or because it exists as a state or nation for less than 2 centuries, US is young and has no significant cultural achievement as well:)

I now understand what BB wanted to say. ;) I hope some day you will spill your wisdom and culture upon the world so that we could enjoy the greatness of your complete enlightenment.

single handedly toppled communism

Cool. What else did you do single-handedly? ;)

But then again you're an idiot hellbent on insulting us once your lack of reason was revealed.

In your head the surrounding world looks idiotic, guess why?
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
10 Jun 2009 /  #206
Cool. What else did you do single-handedly? ;)

Took Lwów after WW1 :-))))
Nathan  18 | 1349  
10 Jun 2009 /  #207
Took L'viv after WW1 :-))))

It is pity that many hands were left in our cemeteries.
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
10 Jun 2009 /  #208
Yes civilians, and after WW2 when Polish army moved into Galicja you got your ass handed to you again in "Operation Wisła" all you Ukrainians could ever fight was women and children since whenever our soldiers came you got served, we were too lenient to you in the past :)))
Seanus  15 | 19666  
10 Jun 2009 /  #209
Sokrates, it took 44 years and a lot of work. An eyeblink it wasn't. Gomułka was a communist but just wanted communism suitable for Poland. The same with Cyrankiewicz. He denounced the communist party at one time and then wholeheartedly supported it.

You can't deny that many Poles were happy to be offered full employment and some other things that communism brought.
Salomon  2 | 436  
10 Jun 2009 /  #210
As to reality:

It is pity that many hands were left in our cemeteries.

UPA was active in the ethnic cleansing actions of ethnic Poles from areas of Ukrainian autonomous settlement through terrorist acts and the mass-murder of Polish civilians.[56] Ethnic cleansing operations against the Polish population began on a large scale in March 1943.[57]

Brutal methods such as beheading, disembowelling, and killing with knives and axes were employed against Poles. In addition to the UPA, Ukrainian peasants also participated in the violence,[58] and large groups of armed "bandit" marauders, unafiliated with UPA, brutalized civilians.[59] so the exact number of Poles killed specifically by UPA is unknown. The UPA also killed ethnic Ukrainians who were believed to be associated with communists, as well as those Ukrainians who had intermarried with Poles[citation needed]. In anti-Polish actions from Autumn 1943 in Halychyna, the UPA conducted cooperative actions with detachments from the Galician Division.[60] The estimates of the number of Poles murdered in Ukraine range from 100,000 (Edward Prus, 2006)[61] to 500,000 (Norman Davies, 1996);[3] many more Poles fled the area because of the post-war chaos.

Post WWII Gdańsk

After the final Soviet offensive began in January, 1945, hundreds of thousands of German refugees, many of whom had fled to Gdańsk on foot from East Prussia (see evacuation of East Prussia), tried to escape through the city's port in a large-scale evacuation involving hundreds of German cargo and passenger ships. Some of the ships were sunk by the Soviets, including the Wilhelm Gustloff after an evacuation was attempted at neighboring Gdynia. In the process, tens of thousands of refugees were killed.

An unspecified number of young (mostly underaged) inhabitanst of Gdańsk, both male and female, was rounded up by the Soviet NKVD in 1945 and placed in provisional camps in Grudziądz, Ciechanów, Działdowo and Iława. All of them were soon deported to Siberia by the Soviet secret police, as revealed by the Institute of National Remembrance in 2000-2002 investigation

I don't understand people from country which had nothing to say after WWII and durring WWII ... debating about this issues as if Poland had as much to say as for example Soviets...

Anny way Poland was one of the biggest vicitmes after WWII.

You can't deny that many Poles were happy to be offered full employment and some other things that communism brought.

Without Soviets Poland would never be communistic country. Communism was imposed on Poland by force.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_(19 39-1946)

In the aftermath of the German and Soviet invasion of Poland (September, 1939) the territory of Poland was divided between the Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union (USSR).

Both powers were hostile to the Polish culture and the Polish people, aiming at their destruction.[1] Before Operation Barbarossa, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union coordinated their Poland-related policies, most visibly in the four Gestapo-NKVD Conferences, where the occupants discussed plans for dealing with the Polish resistance movement and future destruction of Poland.[2]

There is some controversy as to whether Soviet policies were harsher than those of the Nazis.

In 1940 and the first half of 1941, the Soviets deported more than 1,200,000 Poles, most in four mass deportations. The first deportation took place February 10, 1940, with more than 220,000 sent to northern European Russia; the second on April 13, 1940, sending 320,000 primarily to Kazakhstan; a third wave in June-July 1940 totaled more than 240,000; the fourth occurred in June, 1941, deporting 300,000. It was determined based on Soviet information that more than 760,000 of the deportees had died-a large part of those dead being children, who had comprised about a third of deportees


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