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Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?


Harry  
10 Jun 2009 /  #211
you got your ass handed to you again in "Operation Wisła" all you Ukrainians could ever fight was women and children since whenever our soldiers came you got served,

How surprising to see you crowing about Poland engaging in ethnic cleansing. Perhaps our mad Serbian friend is right and some Poles are from the same species as the average Serbian. Nevermind, at least the vast majority of Poles are homo sapiens.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
10 Jun 2009 /  #212
Sokrates, it took 44 years and a lot of work. An eyeblink it wasn't. Gomułka was a communist but just wanted communism suitable for Poland. The same with Cyrankiewicz. He denounced the communist party at one time and then wholeheartedly supported it.

So was there a form of communism suitable for Poland?:)

You can't deny that many Poles were happy to be offered full employment and some other things that communism brought.

Oh yes i can deny it, i'd agree that some were happy but not "many" if "many" were happy then you wouldnt get movements like Solidarność, the fact is that for the vast majority of Poles the cons of communism such as lack of freedom and democracy far outweighed regular salaries.
Salomon 2 | 436  
10 Jun 2009 /  #213
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
10 Jun 2009 /  #214
Salomon, you seem to educated enough, you should know that there were strong voices in Poland that wanted communism but just not as advocated and imposed by Russia. Just read up on Gomułka, he was the guy that spearheaded that movement towards a Polish vision of communism, sth more akin to socialism.

Yes, communism was imposed by force but many politicians were sympathetic to the communistic movement. You must remember that the reign of Cyrankiewicz lasted sth like 24 years. That's far longer than any US president or, I think, British PM. He definitely had communistic leanings and was friendly with the respective parties.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
10 Jun 2009 /  #215
and after WW2 when Polish army moved into Galicja you got your ass handed to you again in "Operation Wisła" all you Ukrainians could ever fight was women and children since whenever our soldiers came you got served

Operation Wisła (Polish: Akcja Wisła) was the codename for the 1947 deportation of southeastern post-war Poland's Ukrainian (including Boyko and Lemko) populations, carried out by the Polish Communist authorities[1][2] About 200,000 people, residing in southeastern Poland were forcibly resettled to the new territories in the north and west of the country.

It has been described as an ethnic cleansing by Polish[4] and Western sources[5] [6] as well as by Ukrainians.The operation commenced at 4 a.m., April 28, 1947

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula
Your "soldiers" even got decorations for beating and killing women and kids. Sick f*cks.
Salomon 2 | 436  
10 Jun 2009 /  #216
If you ask me if there were Polish communists ... I will answer ... yes Poland had some communists.

If you ask me if they would be able to take power in free Poland. I will answer no!

It is how free Poland fought against Communists in 1920. Poland beaten Soviet Union in 1920.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War



Soviet propaganda poster. Text reads: "This is how the landowner's ideas end."

A Soviet propadanda poster reading: "A Red present for the White lords" (1920).

Polish propaganda poster showing Polish cavalry and a Bolshevik soldier with a starred cap. Text reads: "Beat the Bolshevik"



Polish FT-17 during Battle of Daugavpils 1919
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
10 Jun 2009 /  #217
I'd tend to agree with you, Salomon, but Poland was hardly ever truly free, now was it?

Polish politics isn't entirely predictable and communism may have taken hold without the Russians. Communism was not a super new phenomenon at that time.
Salomon 2 | 436  
10 Jun 2009 /  #218
I'd tend to agree with you, Salomon, but Poland was hardly ever truly free, now was it?

Well ... Polish people defended 2nd republic as they could, it was heroic effort ... Polish people were dreaming about the end of imposed on them communism.

You can make speculations if communism would happen without soviets ... the fact is that communism was immposed by Soviets and Polish people were oppresed by this system for Polish ethicy.
Torq  
10 Jun 2009 /  #219
There is no historical support whatsoever about Polish origin of the city.

I think you'd be wrong here. The earliest mention of Gdańsk in "Żywot świętego
Wojciecha" comes from the late 10th century and describes the bishops visit to
the city. You should all write letters of complaint to Wikipedia and numerous other
websites who tell about the foundation of Gdańsk by Poles and demand that they
stop telling lies :) (providing historical evidence that they are wrong of course :))

And now after horrible "purge" of Germans civilians by Poles in 1945 (...)

How come running away from the bestiality of advancing Red Army can be
considered a "horrible purge by Poles" is really beyond me :)

(...) the city still has many German-speaking citizens.

Just as Lwów and Wilno have Polish speakers.

And what do you mean by many? 0,01% of all inhabitants of Gdańsk? 0,05%?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442  
10 Jun 2009 /  #220
It is pity that many hands were left in our cemeteries.

ha, ha, good one;)
Salomon 2 | 436  
10 Jun 2009 /  #221
What can be interesting. Western Ukraians 20 years before the WWII ... formed units for Poland in Polish -Soviet war ... so using stupefying Soviet propaganda they prefered "lords"

Petlura withdrew to Poland December 5 1919, which had previously recognized him as the head of the legal government of Ukraine. In April 1920, as head of the Ukrainian People's Republic, he signed an alliance in Warsaw with the Polish government, agreeing to a border on the River Zbruch and recognizing Poland's right to Galicia in exchange for military aid in overthrowing the Bolshevik regime. Polish forces, reinforced by Petlura's remaining troops (some two divisions), attacked Kiev on July 5, 1920

PlasticPole 7 | 2,649  
10 Jun 2009 /  #222
All that aside we all know the truth about Gdańsk. Germany wanted it to keep Poland from getting ahead. Germany was in a frenzy trying to figure out ways to keep Poland from becoming an economic force in the region so they pounced on Gdańsk. It's glaringly obvious and quite simple to detect the real motivation.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
10 Jun 2009 /  #223
What the fock Sean? Bataliony Chłopskie and communists were a small minority in 1945, how would communism hated by 90% of all Poles and associated with Russia taken hold without the Red Army? Please just stop writing.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
10 Jun 2009 /  #224
Yes but you are missing one very simple point. Poland has always looked outwith for support (Dmowski and Piłsudski both did it). In this case, from Belarus and, to a lesser extent, from Ukraine. Many historians overplayed the Jewish communistic element but it was there.

Poland also likes charismatic leaders. They could have replaced the likes of Bolowski (KPP) with another, sparking a resurgence in communistic sentiment.

There was potential there, Sokrates, and that's what I was trying to say. All it needed was one concerted movement.
Ironside 50 | 11,110  
10 Jun 2009 /  #225
On the other hand, it is so easy for you to justify everything , even when defending two different points contradict themselves.

Point - everything that belonged to Poland in the year 1772 should belong to Poland and is not greedy or stupid - its your attitude which is really stupid, Ukraine allied with Poland have every chance to became truly strong and independent country, quarrel with Poland and you will end as Russian province, about what a few square miles ? What it is compared to Ukrainian territory?

You could have find stronger voices in Britain doing the same - Kim Phillby and friends !

think

About Gdansk - archaeological evidence proved that town was built by Poles.
And regardless ethnic Germanic majority in the later history of the town, it belonged to Kingdom of Poland, till partition.

Your "soldiers" even got decorations for beating and killing women and kids. Sick f*cks.

See, you getting excited but what about Poles murdered brutally by your heroes ?
You don't give dam or you are glad?
Seems to me Nathan that you have serious problem to solve !
Condemn Wolyn massacre or not - yes or no!
If you refuse you are hypocrite!

ha, ha, good one;)

thinks so? moron !

the biggest crap I ever heard about, lol

Should record your monologues .))))

yeah, Ukraine has no culture because Ukrainians disagree with Poles, lol

Thanks a lot my American friend our soldiers are killed fighting in your wars !
Yet you side with everyone but Poles - great, friend ))))))
Yank!
Any southerners here?
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601  
10 Jun 2009 /  #226
"communism may have taken hold without the Russians"

Ain't no way Jose. Historically, Poles have been too independent for that.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 Jun 2009 /  #227
Yet you side with everyone but Poles - great, friend ))))))

It is not about sides, it is about facts.

See, you getting excited but what about Poles murdered brutally by your heroes ?

UPA killed scum like some AK soldiers who were killing women and kids and tortured prisoners in concentration camps like Germans in WWll

thinks so? moron !

Try to be more respectful, especially to ones who said nothing offending to you.

Point - everything that belonged to Poland in the year 1772 should belong to Poland and is not greedy or stupid - its your attitude which is really stupid

Everything that belonged to Kijevan Rus' should belong to Ukraine. France should be within 1812 borders. Germany should be with 1940 territories. Austrian should be in 1914 lands and so on... Do you mind? Were will you be? 4th partition - give me a break! ;)

Ukraine allied with Poland have every chance to became truly strong and independent country

We are independant and we don't need any chances. Go ahead ally with Russians. Nobody gives a fu*k. Anyway, from what I see on this forum, you will always be enemies and along the history line you always were in cohoots with Russians. I don't think anyone expects much from you, save a stab in the back (Riga 1920, Andrusiv Treaty 1667 etc.)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Jun 2009 /  #228
There was potential there, Sokrates, and that's what I was trying to say. All it needed was one concerted movement.

Sean Poles wanted freedom, they craved freedom, it was one of our most principal basic national themes, thats why noble democracy happened, thats why first democratic constitution happened, in Poland any movement that aimed to limit or take away peoples freedom was absolutely impossible regardless of people trying to sell it, the only way you could install it was with an army backing you, which has happened.

UPA killed scum like some AK soldiers who were killing women and kids and tortured prisoners in concentration camps like Germans in WWll

Since you're so keen about facts, UPA murdered women and children, after the war when Poland could and did concentrate its military effort on UPA your wannabe SS fighters got squashed within weeks via operation Wisła, i'd appreciate if you didnt ll our women and children "scum" since they were primary UPA victims.

We are independant and we don't need any chances

You're weak, militarily, politically and economically, Russia wants to dominate you, Western Europe doesnt give a shite about you, whether you like it or not Poland is the only country that can save you from becoming a Russian province or a backwater poverty stricken craphole on the outskirts of Europe.

Poland is possibly the only political option that can save and preserve Ukrainian sovereignty.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 Jun 2009 /  #229
Russia wants, Poland wants - all you want, but you will never get. If the Polish forum is representative of Polish people's opinion - which I think is to a great degree the truth - then I feel more secure, because I know the face of the enemy. Conniving one, as was the case in the history many times. You are a malignant tumor, one that can't be cured and that spreads its BS into the future generations. You tried for centuries and what did you end up with? Whining a*s-holes like yourself claiming about all-suffering Poland. Nobody needs your support - shove it up into your arse.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Jun 2009 /  #230
Russia wants,

but you will never get.

You have absolutely no tools to oppose Russia, many of Western politicians like Romano Prodi dont even consider you a part of European community, without Polish promotion the question of Ukraine in EU would never even arise, national pride or not alone you're absolutely defensless and without Poland you are alone.

Poland wants

Thats the good part, while i'm baiting you here on the forums Poland doesnt want to take anything from Ukraine, sooner or later you will be forced to come clean with UPA issue but thats a minor thing, Poland and Ukraine do not have conflicting interests yet we both have very similar ones, the problem here is that you're an inherently unstable country and at the moment not suitable for closer relations.

I know the face of the enemy.

Buddy, if history is any indicator and we were really an enemy then your country might have become somewhat territorialy leaner, Ukraine as such has virtually no serious relationships, Poland has twice your GDP, three times your military spending, about ten times as much international leverage and we want strong Ukraine because its in our best interest, if you people were smart you'd learn to love us as the third best thing after sex and vodka since we are THE key to your national well being.

Nobody needs your support - shove it up into your arse.

Actually you do, if only because no one else will support you and alone you're too weak to oppose Russia and even you Nathan should know by now that any "alliance" with Russia at best going to wreck your country, at worst make you lose half of it.
Ironside 50 | 11,110  
11 Jun 2009 /  #231
It is not about sides, it is about facts.

you are naive)))))

UPA killed scum like some AK soldiers who were killing women and kids and tortured prisoners in concentration camps like Germans in WWll

also you have been a brainwashed, I guess you can helped being so wrong!
never the less you didn't condemned Wolyn massacre - it make you hypocrite and others can see what you really are.........!

Try to be more respectful, especially to ones who said nothing offending to you.

YOU lecture me? Maybe try to justify ethnic cleansing, yet again and then lecture me some more?

Everything that belonged to Kijevan Rus' should belong to Ukraine. France should be within 1812 borders. Germany should be with 1940 territories. Austrian should be in 1914 lands and so on... Do you mind? Were will you be? 4th partition - give me a break! ;)

Do you believe that you actually make same point in here ?
If so, you are not very bright))))))

Well, Ukraine is divida in partes tres, so far we are talking with one part.
See maybe others Ukrainian have something different to say?
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 Jun 2009 /  #232
many of Western politicians like Romano Prodi dont even consider you a part of European community

I knew it! I felt that something is fishy here. Thanks, Prodi, now I know for sure that Ukrainians are living in Wonderland! Sh*t, these teachers of mine were lying all the time, bastards.

at the moment not suitable for closer relations

We want it so bad...closer relations. Ahh!..

Ukraine as such has virtually no serious relationships

No, Ukraine is in love, deep unconditional love with you..;) You are so romantic, Socrates.

if you people were smart you'd learn to love us as the third best thing after sex and vodka since we are THE key to your national well being.

You need this love badly, I know it, Sokrates, you dirty little monkey. Sorry, I am straight. :(

Actually you do, if only because no one else will support you and alone you're too weak to oppose Russia

Don't ya worry. We have some important partnerships and step by step Ukraine will be there. Again shove your "friendship" into your arse. ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
11 Jun 2009 /  #233
I knew it! I felt that something is fishy here. Thanks, Prodi, now I know for sure that Ukrainians are living in Wonderland! Sh*t, these teachers of mine were lying all the time, bastards.

He's not alone, the West would love to forget you exist, that Poland you hate so much prevents that.

We want it so bad...closer relations. Ahh!..

Thats your issue, Poland will keep rolling without Ukraine, Ukraine will not continue to be sovereign without Poland, we have a lot less to lose than you if our future relations fail.

Don't ya worry. We have some important partnerships and step by step Ukraine will be there. Again shove your "friendship" into your arse. ;)

What important partnerships? European Union doesnt even want you in, Belarus is too deep with Russia and Russia itself wants you as its pawn, so apart from Poland who's going to reach out to you?

You need this love badly, I know it, Sokrates, you dirty little monkey. Sorry, I am straight. :(

Your petty sarcasm aside improved relations with Ukraine would be great, while we are a key to your sovereign existence you are our key to international power but like i said you're a nation thats seriously underdeveloped in more ways then one and sadly you're not growing up anytime soon.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 Jun 2009 /  #234
the West would love to forget you exist, that Poland you hate so much prevents that

Ukraine will not continue to be sovereign without Poland

so apart from Poland who's going to reach out to you?

we are a key to your sovereign existence

Wow! Thank you, O Great Poland. Art blesseth Thee! ;)

Well, Ukraine is divida in partes tres, so far we are talking with one part.
See maybe others Ukrainian have something different to say?

Trust me, Ironside, I am the only "part" that still has some interest to debate with you. Others wouldn't even bother to waste their keyboards on this BS.
Ironside 50 | 11,110  
11 Jun 2009 /  #235
Trust me, Ironside, I am the only "part" that still has some interest to debate with you. Others wouldn't even bother to waste their keyboards on this BS.

oh blessed me ! Such great person as Nathan the Great BS Digger is interested.
Thank You!
By the way is there any other massacre you would like to justify as in Wolyn?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
12 Jun 2009 /  #236
Wow! Thank you, O Great Poland. Art blesseth Thee! ;)

Sarcasm aside tell me what country besides Poland has benevolent interests associated with Ukraine?
osiol 55 | 3,922  
12 Jun 2009 /  #237
what country besides Poland has benevolent interests associated with Ukraine?

Russia probably thinks it does, rather like a strict father who means to be cruel to be kind.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
12 Jun 2009 /  #238
Sarcasm aside tell me what country besides Poland has benevolent interests

What is benevolence? It is good will, correct? So how there can be benevolent interests?
If there is such a thing, then benevolence doesn't exist. It should then be called kind business, if such a thing is possible.

Russia probably thinks it does

And Poland likewise. You imagine yourself saviors of the world. Kind of the kindest. After you are satisfied with your false image (is it possible?), keep on licking it and let me laugh.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
12 Jun 2009 /  #239
What is benevolence? It is good will, correct? So how there can be benevolent interests?

I asked you a question Nathan, your country is absolutely alone in Europe, no one will support you in case of Russian agression, no one except Poland is interested in the very existence of your state, who do you think will come help you against Russia or agressive EU economy?

kind business

Call it how you want, the fact is its in our Polish interest to see you survive and grow strong however we can manage without Ukraine, Ukraine cannot continue to exist as it is currently without substantial Polish support in the future.

And Poland likewise. You imagine yourself saviors of the world.

Who the hell says we're saviors of the world, in any alliance Poland would lead through more dynamic culture and more powerfull economy but still an alliance with Ukraine is good business for us and an absolute neccesity for you, if you want to avoid utter marginalization and domination by Russia.

if such a thing is possible.

Our countries have no conflictint interests so yes, the problem is severe underdevelopment of Ukraine and your national sentiments.

You're a weak and poor country without any major supporter and with a neighbour who wants to dominate you, looking for friends should be your major priority.

And Poland likewise.

No Nathan, an alliance with Russia would most likely end with you losing large parts of your country and having your economy drained leaving your country a 3rd world ruin, an alliance with Poland means economic ties, international recognition and significant leverage in defence of your interests on the international arena, a potential alliance with Poland can grant you things you could never have on your own and in exchange we get cheap labor force that can be easily polonised, a close military and economical partner.
Borrka 37 | 594  
12 Jun 2009 /  #240
"I feel more secure, because I know the face of the enemy"
Nathan

And I feel it was rather paranoid reaction.
Nathan, you have been asked several times some simple questions but unfortunately enough your only answer were sarcasm and some wounded national pride.

Stop this hair-splitting.
Stop discussing Danzig or Gdansk.

Say Nathan what is wrong about Poland considering good relationship with Ukraine to be a strategic objective of our politics ?
BTW it's not about Ukraine only - so called Giedroyc's doctrine refers to Belorussia and Lithuania as well.
We don't mean any form of confederation or "commonwealth".
It's over.

It's a healthy political business.
Win win option.
I do not overestimate Polish position in NATO or in the Union.
But for the time being we 've got better political and economical cards than you, Ukrainians.
Giving you some political support we do not expect anything in exchange.
Or maybe our wish of politically stable and democratic Ukraine is too much for you ?

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