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Poland and Ukraine


pawian  221 | 25292  
17 May 2009 /  #181
Ironside:My question if both Poles and Ukrainians were defending their territory - who was right ? both?
Still waiting for an answer.

Yes, they both had the right. The weaker lost, the stronger won. Simple.

Well, there is your interpretation and I know nothing about it.
And seriously I doubt your revelations about him

Let me answer with your own words:
don't expect me to go along with you on this path of self deny. :):):):):)

Look, according to today`s standards of IPN, Kuraś was just another butcher whose only bright side was that he fought against Germans.

******** action and reaction ?It wasn't reaction adequate to anything and I don't think that Poles would had done the some if the situation were reversed.

Let me answer with your own words:
Do you know that for a fact ? Can you prove it?
:):):)

On the said territory only 56% of the population were Ukrainian, most of the towns, industry, wealth and educated people were Polish,

Hmm, they taught me in primary school long ago that 56% make the majority. What percentage was Polish? 20%??? And you want to keep Ukrainian lands with such numbers? :):):):)

for one they could not be able to constitute proper government without cooperation from the Poles because there was not enough educated Ukrainians.

Hmm, I heard that Poles closed all Ukrainian schools and universities before the war. It is called educational cleansing. :):):)

They aspiration at the times were idiotic and dangerous to stability of any state, and considering that there were never an Ukrainian state it was impossible to do otherwise

Idiotic? How can the aspirations of 56% people be idiotic?
It was Poles who started the cleansing before the war - Ukrainian culture, organizations and religion were destined for removal, Ukrainians were to become Polish.

I hope you are constant in your very citizen like attitude.

Yes, I am. I have supported Ukrainian cause since 1991. I am realistic, unlike you. I understand what gains there are for Poland from independent Ukraine:):):):)

It just a thought but you and Nathan are coming across as one person - are you?

When you finally come to conclusion that we aren`t, I will also posikam się ze szczęscia. :):):):):)

pawian:
Come on, be realistic. Nothing like that is going to happen. That is what irritated me about you previously - your fighting for a lost cause. :):):):)


Do you know that for a fact ? Can you prove it?

:):):):):):):):) You are very romantic in your fight for this lost cause of retaking any lands for Poland. So Polish...... :):):):)

Secondly, what you call colonizations ?

By colonization I mean controlling the foreign land with an ethnic group which is larger than your own and which opposes your rule and wants to abolish it. Decolonization took place after WW2 when all ethnic groups larger than colonizers rebelled against their rulers. So was the case in Ukraine.

Ah but they do! Don't believe me? Ask BB!

Look, it would be funny to form our knowledge of contemporary Germans on the case of BB (who is pulling your leg most of the time, BTW), just like it would be funny to form it about contemporary Poles on your case.

As for 800 years - thats wrong, check your informations.

Giving dates to prove any rights? Very well. So, let me again remind you that the Polish state vanished from the map of Europe for 123 years - from 1795 to 1918. And it happened through Polish grave mistakes.

Really ? What about Northern Ireland? Crazy?

What percentage of Irish population in NI supports British rule? As far as I know, they make the majority, unlike in Ukraine.

And quite that nonsense about colonies , will you?

No, why? When you look at the map of Poland from 10 century, you will see that Poland expanded eastwards at the cost of Rusin population. If in 20 century Poles were still in minority in these lands, it meant a colonization failed.

If you bend backward to accommodate everyone it may happen that someone will take advantage of you.

Very well. You go your own path, I will go mine. We`ll see where we shall meet in future. :):):)

One piece of advise - Poland is a democratic country. In next elections vote politicians who desire to change borders with Ukraine. They might represent you in the parliament and continue your fight by political or military means.

But, I am afraid you won`t find too many. They are not crazy..... :):):):):):)

I consider your demands very harmful to Poland. Even if there are more like you here and you formulate your demands formally and start political debate about it, you are going to gain nothing, but we and Poland may lose a lot. Anti-Polish sentiments might again rise in Ukraine. You are blind to such a possibility or don`t care and that was the second reason I was irritated at you in the past. But now I have calmed down. Weed smokers, as you say, happen. :):):):):):):)
OP Ironside  50 | 12383  
17 May 2009 /  #182
By colonization I mean controlling the foreign land with an ethnic group which is larger than your own and which opposes your rule and wants to abolish it. Decolonization took place after WW2 when all ethnic groups larger than colonizers rebelled against their rulers. So was the case in Ukraine.

Yeah keep dreaming. Your view at that issue is so wide of the mark that I won't bother to repeat myself, you are so bias probably due to your communist education.

Look, it would be funny to form our knowledge of contemporary Germans on the case of BB (who is pulling your leg most of the time, BTW), just like it would be funny to form it about contemporary Poles on your case.

I'm not forming my opinions on Germans from the Internet.

No, why? When you look at the map of Poland from 10 century, you will see that Poland expanded eastwards at the cost of Rusin population. If in 20 century Poles were still in minority in these lands, it meant a colonization failed.

No if anything Poland offered protection from Tatar and Turks.

I consider your demands very harmful to Poland. Even if there are more like you here and you formulate your demands formally and start political debate about it, you are going to gain nothing, but we and Poland may lose a lot.

In what way is harmful?

Anti-Polish sentiments might again rise in Ukraine. You are blind to such a possibility or don`t care

I don't care, to relay on kindness of the strangers is not wise policy.
In the politics that kid of attitude is dangerous.
Salomon  2 | 436  
17 May 2009 /  #183
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Lublin

The Union of Lublin (Lithuanian: Liublino unija; Belarusian: Лю́блінская у́нія Polish: Unia lubelska) replaced the personal union of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania with a real union and an elective monarchy

Lithuania had been increasingly on the losing side of the Muscovite-Lithuanian Wars and by the second half of the 16th century it faced the threat of total defeat in the Livonian war and incorporation into Russia. The Polish nobility (the szlachta) on the other hand were reluctant to offer help to Lithuania without receiving anything in exchange.

Within the Union Lithuania had to accept the loss of Podlachia, Volhynia, Podolia and the Kiev regions, former territories of the Grand Duchy that were transferred to the Polish Crown.

Pawian - they wanted to be part of Poland because they feared Russians ... later they murdered their protectors.

Again ? NO NO NO !!!!
McCoy  27 | 1268  
17 May 2009 /  #184
lwow.blox.pl/2009/03/seminarium-Jeszcze-dwoch-panow-w-lodce-nie-liczac.html

Please provide links in English.or Offer a summary of the text.
Salomon  2 | 436  
17 May 2009 /  #185
lwow.blox.pl/2009/03/seminarium-Jeszcze-dwoch-panow-w-lodce-nie-liczac.html

Czechs occupy Ukrainian Praga. Poles occupy Ukrainian Kraków ... professors on their universities talk like Crow.

Don't make mistakes from the past.
I am telling you:
Nathan  18 | 1349  
17 May 2009 /  #186
McCoy

Very funny article. These guys are obvious charlatans whose aim is to do the same as Ironside and Salomon are doing here - undermine Polish and Ukrainian relationship and friendship. Fortunately, absent-mindism is limited by minority of people.

What aspiration ? do you think in the prewar situation there was chance for existence of the independent Ukrainian state.

You said a lot. Pawian answered many of your questions. But read again what you said, look deep through the rust of your arrogance and chauvinism. For you there can't be any aspirations to be free, to speak your own language, to go to school were your language is taught when it is related to someone else - a person of different nationality. Imagine yourself in place of these people. What would you do? You can't fight politically because education and government with courts and executive branches are all against you, with no representation of whatsoever. Were these people interested in fate of some foreign culture and language? nation? - No. How would you fight?

You see Ukrainians as uneducated, poor people who didn't aspire freedom. Look back at the history and tell me how much blood of both nations is buried in Ukrainian fields - thousand tons. Do you think if Ukrainians didn't aspire freedom, that blood would be there? No. You make mistake of the past - you try to colonize, to dominate, to find some pretext of Grand Duchy giving lands and Boleslaw's inheritance of Danylo Halyckij's kingdom in the present time. Some stupid dudes (Ukrainian and Russian) make a seminarium to build animosity in our relations and many fly like flies on shti because this is what they want - anger, blood, lands, domination - because "we are grand, we should always dominate others". You understand that seminarium like this is made for this only purpose - nothing else. And Salomon builds a fence immediately along our border - it is a celebration for this Russian ****. Ironside, I am not forcing you to take my or Pawian's side of viewing things. Just sit down and read on history of our both nations and think if there was another way of making things work out for the benefit of both. I said it already one time and I will say it again. If Poland didn't try to colonize Ukraine all the time, but made an ally on its eastern border, Russia would never been able to menace Lithuania, Poland or Ukraine, Sweden and Germany would never invaded Poland the way they did. And even if they did, it wouldn't last for long if we would have stood by each other. Remember hetman Sahajdachnij times - it was probably one of the most great co-operations between Poland and Ukraine. Moskow and Turks were defeated and both sides benefited from it. And this could have lasted for centuries if there were less arrogant and greedy people who always want to impose one's will on others. Think about it, Ironside.
pawian  221 | 25292  
17 May 2009 /  #187
If Poland didn't try to colonize Ukraine all the time, but made an ally on its eastern border,... And this could have lasted for centuries if there were less arrogant and greedy people who always want to impose one's will on others.

Yes, it is a great pity that the Commonwealth of 3 Nations didn`t arise. We would be invincible. :):) The elites of the times were too shortsighted for that and in result all parties lost and a sea of blood was spilled.

Think about it, Ironside.

It is a good opinion but I am afraid it will be lost on Iron. He seems to be personally prejudiced, he mentioned his family and losing someone in Wolyn or sth.

But it doesn`t mean you should cease defending Ukraine, of course.

Yeah keep dreaming. Your view at that issue is so wide of the mark that I won't bother to repeat myself, you are so bias probably due to your communist education.

If YOUR bias comes from the schooling you received in free Poland after 1989, I think your teachers should be fired immediately. :):):):)

In what way is harmful?

Poland and Ukraine working together will be a substantial power which might positively influence this region of Europe.
With hostile relations between us, separated, we will only cause trouble for ourselves and everybody around, with third parties winning their schemes in the region.
Salomon  2 | 436  
18 May 2009 /  #188
making things work out for the benefit of both.

If Poland didn't try to colonize Ukraine all the time

Lets face it, my proposal is form your deep dreams:
OP Ironside  50 | 12383  
18 May 2009 /  #189
Yes, it is a great pity that the Commonwealth of 3 Nations didn`t arise. We would be invincible. :):) The elites of the times were too shortsighted for that and in result all parties lost and a sea of blood was spilled.

Elites at the time were no different from those in Europe.
Point is they had no partner to talk to, as all the local nobility considered themselves as part of the Commonwealth no some peasants or cossacks.

Local aristocracy choose Crown.
I think you are not able to understand times you talk about, seeing it in the light of modern standards.

It's past long forgotten, what about our land back?

Poland and Ukraine working together will be a substantial power which might positively influence this region of Europe.

Right now Ukraine is a mess , nobody knows what will happen.It dream.

With hostile relations between us, separated, we will only cause trouble for ourselves and everybody around, with third parties winning their schemes in the region.

Well, first of all Ukraine should chose it way and so far is impossible to guess future direction of that country, Poland is not in the position to do something and Nathan could say that it is imposing .......

Really good relations should be built on mutual interests and understanding.
[quote=Nathan][/quote]
You always takl about colanisation and ......lots of things I don't agree
You don't offer any argument only facts interpreted in the light of your views, and you are saying that we should working together , fine but some issue from the past should be make clear,

Have you been to the Ukraine at all and for how long?
I wonder if your views are representative ......

Sorry, I will finish later - now I must go .....
тихо й, слухати Пісні.
youtube.com/watch?v=JDccFGGiO9I
Nathan  18 | 1349  
18 May 2009 /  #190
Have you been to the Ukraine at all and for how long?
I wonder if your views are representative ......

I was born in Ukraine and lived there most of my life. :) I don't know how representative I can be of the whole country :), but many will back up my opinions - no doubt.

You don't offer any argument only facts interpreted in the light of your views, and you are saying that we should working together , fine but some issue from the past should be make clear,

Sure, tell me the issues you have and we will talk them over. Please, don't make them about territories, because the borders will stay the way they are. UPA-AK issue we also dealt with, i hope. If there are any other ones - it will be a pleasure to discuss, Ironside.

тихо й, слухати Пісні.

Cool! :)
Salomon  2 | 436  
18 May 2009 /  #191
I am telling you :

Forghet about Ukraine ... don't make mistakes form the past ... they should deal with their problems themsleves.

I am so proud of current Polish goverment visa policy.

Don't make mistakes form the past ... don't buy houses there ... don't open companies in Ukraine ... it is colonisation :-))))
pawian  221 | 25292  
18 May 2009 /  #192
Forghet about Ukraine ... don't make mistakes form the past ... they should deal with their problems themsleves.

Nope! We shall never leave Ukraine! In good and bad times, Poland and Ukraine must keep together!!!

Solomon, I have nothing against Russians joining our partnership. But you must behave like civilised people, not Asian barbarians! Start from yourself!!! :):):):):):)
Salomon  2 | 436  
18 May 2009 /  #193
But you must behave like civilised people, not Asian barbarians! Start from yourself!!! :):):):):):)

Have you ever been to Russia ? In my opinion you should be very careful with name calling them ... what is more I am not from Russia but if I,ve been Russian and read all posts of people like you here ...

I just prefere Russians over Ukrainians ... what is more Russians don't have former colonial complex (what in Ukrianian case is very dangerous for us ...)

Btw ... I don't find Japan less developed than Poland ... Japan helped Poland so many times in the past ... be careful ... with your name calling

Nope! We shall never leave Ukraine! In good and bad times, Poland and Ukraine must keep together!!!

Well, lets agree to disagree ... I'd say that we should cooperate when it is needed, ... with Russia or with Ukraine ... but without dreams about commonwealth ...
McCoy  27 | 1268  
18 May 2009 /  #194
We shall never leave Ukraine!

good imperial thinking pawian

In good and bad times, Poland and Ukraine must keep together!!!

under the polish rule in Wielka Rzeczpospolita.
pawian  221 | 25292  
18 May 2009 /  #195
Have you ever been to Russia ?

Yes, I have. Russians were great people, but their food was horrible. Only eggs. Eggs for breakfast, eggs for lunch and for dinner too. :):):):)

what is more I am not from Russia but if I,ve been Russian and read all posts of people like you here ...

Nope. It was settled long ago that you are Russian! Stop these vain declarations! :):):)

I just prefere Russians over Ukrainians ...

It is natural. :):):):) If I were you, I would also think so. :):):):):)

what is more Russians don't have former colonial complex.

Of course, they do! Much worse than Ukrainians`! They have the Golden Orde slave complex. :):):):) It has been haunting them since 14 century. :):):)

Btw ... I don't find Japan less developed than Poland ... Japan helped Poland so many times in the past ... be careful ... with your name calling

Did you get annoyed by any chance? :):):):):)
I am sorry but you are receiving provocation for provocation. :):):)

Well, lets agree to disagree ... I'd say that we should cooperate when it is needed, ... with Russia or with Ukraine ... but without dreams about commonwealth ...

Yes, it is a nice dream. If we believe hard, it will come true one day. Poland, Russia, Ukraine - Slavic Commonwealth!
But if Russia tries to f...king dominate over anybody again, she`ll be kicked out the moment she does!!! :):):):) Bear it in mind and tell it to your bosses in the Kremlin. :):):)

Nope! We will be partners. In united Europe.

We are already partners and friends.

g
Salomon  2 | 436  
18 May 2009 /  #196
Nope. It was settled long ago that you are Russian! Stop these vain declarations!

I have to worry you but I am not Russian and I don't care about Ukraine. I'd say that sooner or later Poland is going to see that all projects planed with them were one big mistake ...

Nope! We will be partners. In united Europe.

In my opinion they will never be part of EU ... and not because of Polands "for or against" in this case ... but lets say that one day they would be part of EU ... I know whose the best friend they will be and for sure it will be not Poland.

Eurovision 2007 - Ukraine - Verka Serduchka - Danzing
pawian  221 | 25292  
18 May 2009 /  #197
I have to worry you but I am not Russian and I don't care about Ukraine.

So, where are you from, Mr Darkman? Is it such a secret? :):):)

I'd say that sooner or later Poland is going to see that all projects planed with them were one big mistake ...

It is a typical Russian trait to be a pessimist and fatalist. Come on, act Polish way - cheer up! Show more enthusiasm! :):):)

In my opinion they will never be part of EU ... and not because of Polands "for or against" in this case ...

They will in our lifetime. I am a believer.

but lets say that one day they would be part of EU ... I know whose the best friend they will be and for sure it will be not Poland.
Eurovision 2007 - Ukraine - Verka Serduchka - Danzing

Thank you for bringing up this song. I always liked it - crazily funny. Yes, Danzing and Russia Goodbye. :):):):):) But let me remind you that Poland is in European Union and NATO partnerships with Germany. :):):):) If Ukraine creates such partnership with Germany too, do you think it will sadden me? Of course not. I am not jealous... :):):):)

You can`t suppress my enthusiasm! :):):)
OP Ironside  50 | 12383  
18 May 2009 /  #198
Sure, tell me the issues you have and we will talk them over. Please, don't make them about territories, because the borders will stay the way they are. UPA-AK issue we also dealt with, i hope. If there are any other ones - it will be a pleasure to discuss, Ironside.

But the issues include also border. You saying that we can talk over about everything and then you make preconditions. All mean All!
You might ask why!
It's very simple, border between our country's were drown by Stalin.
You are happy with it I'm not - I think there is ground for discussion.

Next, property left by Poles in the Ukraine.

Question of the Wolyn massacres - are you going to face up responsibility or look for excuses ?

Thats all "problematic" issues in the relations between Ukraine and Poland as I see it!
As for pawian he is
a dreamer not to be reckon with, because sooner or later those question will have to be answered.
So far politicians in Poland are self serving bastards but any government being "really" polish will address those issues.

Nathan it is reality and those issues are real, so stop claiming that I'm some kind of chauvinist or something.
Well, of course you can ignore it as some immaterial ramblings of loony but you know better.
porzeczka  - | 102  
18 May 2009 /  #199
It is not true - read the following

60 000 is the number of victims in Volhynia, I wrote about all Polish victims of UPA (120 000 - 150 000). It's from IPN site too.

IPN has big problem with credibility nowadays. If you live in Poland, you should know sth about it. It has released or sponsored too many controversial publications recently.

I've heard only about one. IPN released one controversial publication about Wałęsa (by Gontarczyk). Does that mean the number of UPA victims is not correct? As for Zyzak's book - it was not published or sponsored by IPN.

If you consider to condemn and ban the organizations just on the basis of some retarded animals wrongdoings, then we have to ban them both so you can't see even those who never killed any innocent and put their head for their country.

Look, there should be no doubt that genocidal policy was pursued and implemented by the OUN/UPA. It's not about some random killings or few instances but about consistent, well organized actions of exterminating Polish civilians. The OUN equated Ukrainian independence with ethnic homogeneity. The way the killings were commited makes UPA hardly comparable to any other organization.

It's said that some A.K soldiers from Wohlynia were destroying Ukrainian villages in retaliation. The estimated number of killed vary from 2 000 to 20 000. I haven't heard about any investigation concerning it. But these killings don't define A.K. Armia Krajowa never pursued genocidal policy.

Do you know that people living in Jedwabne where the biggest massacre took place refuse to admit it or express regret? So, if Poles can`t accept their dark past, why do you expect it from Ukrainians???

You're talking about ordinary people and their reactions. I'm talking about responsibility of authorities to ensure that genociders and their deeds are officially condemned. Kuchma made mistake, Juschenko's attitude makes situation only worse. New monuments of UPA leaders, war criminals responsible for mass-murders of Poles: Stefan Bandera's, Roman Szuchewicz's, „Wohlyn butcher's” - Dmytro Klaczkiwśkij's are popping up in western Ukraine. Roman Szuchewicz was awarded the highest honour - the title „hero of Ukraine”. This is what Szuchewicz wrote in one of his orders:

„Śmierć jednego Lacha to metr wolnej Ukrainy, albo będzie Ukraina albo lechicka krew po kolana, Polaków w pień wyciąć.
W związku z sukcesami wojsk sowieckich konieczne jest przyspieszenie likwidacji Polaków, muszą zostać całkowicie zgładzeni, ich wioski spalone (...) ludność polską należy zniszczyć.”

Why do you see Ukrainian monuments and forget about Polish? Polish controversial figures, including murderers of innocent people, also have their monuments in Poland and Poles don`t care when foreigners criticize. So, there is a draw.

A monument of a person responsible for genocide of thousands of innocent civilians. Where is such monument in Poland?

Anti-Polish sentiments might again rise in Ukraine.

Judging by their national 'heroes'... I would not be surprised if anti-polish sentiment was prevalent there.

I believe Polish politics in Ukraine was incredibly stupid and blind. And it finally brought about the massacre.

If you can justify ethic cleansing/genocide conducted by OUN/UPA, then you can do the same with Polish politics in Ukraine. Just put it in the right context.

It just couldn`t end another way. I am so sorry...

It could - you had Andrii Melnyk, OUN-M or even Taras Bulba Boroviec...

Nope! We shall never leave Ukraine! In good and bad times, Poland and Ukraine must keep together!!!

We are already partners and friends.

That's crazy. With such friends, who needs enemies?
Salomon  2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #200
So, where are you from, Mr Darkman? Is it such a secret? :):):)

I am form Poland. Ile razy mam ci to powtarzać chłopcze.

Thank you for bringing up this song. I always liked it - crazily funny. Yes, Danzing and Russia Goodbye. :):):):):) But let me remind you that Poland is in European Union and NATO partnerships with Germany. :):):):) If Ukraine creates such partnership with Germany too, do you think it will sadden me? Of course not. I am not jealous... :):):):)

I support Polish membership in EU it doesn't change the fact that Germans don't care to much about Poland when it comes to central - eastern europe and their foreign policy here...

You can`t suppress my enthusiasm! :):):)

I am worried that Ukrainians will suppress it.
pawian  221 | 25292  
19 May 2009 /  #201
As for pawian he is
a dreamer not to be reckon with,

Who knows? Maybe I am a dreamer....

So far politicians in Poland are self serving bastards but any government being "really" polish will address those issues.

Now we are both dreamers..... :):):) And God save us from a really Polish government...:):):):):)

I am form Poland. Ile razy mam ci to powtarzać chłopcze.

Where did you learn such good Polish? :):):):)

I've heard only about one. IPN released one controversial publication about Wałęsa (by Gontarczyk). Does that mean the number of UPA victims is not correct? As for Zyzak's book - it was not published or sponsored by IPN.

OK, only one. So let`s assume IPN is correct.

Look, there should be no doubt that genocidal policy was pursued and implemented by the OUN/UPA. It's not about some random killings or few instances but about consistent, well organized actions of exterminating Polish civilians.

Hmm, I think it doesn`t matter to victims if they were killed by random butchers or organised ones. Ukrainians killed Poles and vice versa.

It's said that some A.K soldiers from Wohlynia were destroying Ukrainian villages in retaliation. The estimated number of killed vary from 2 000 to 20 000.

Hmm, 100.000 killed Poles is genocide, 20.000 dead Ukrainians are random killings.

Killings are killings. If AK had been stronger and better armed, there would have been more dead Ukrainians.

I also find it interesting how you describe Polish actions: It is said, some....

I haven't heard about any investigation concerning it. But these killings don't define A.K. Armia Krajowa never pursued genocidal policy.

Some detachments of Polish armed underground did.

You're talking about ordinary people and their reactions. I'm talking about responsibility of authorities to ensure that genociders and their deeds are officially condemned.

OK, Ukrainian authorities should condemn brutal massacres of Poles in Ukraine. I am for. At the same time, Poles should condemn the policy of brutal polonization carried out in Ukraine.

Do you think you will be able to swallow it? Or do you insist Poles were flawless???

New monuments of UPA leaders, war criminals responsible for mass-murders of Poles: Stefan Bandera's, Roman Szuchewicz's, „Wohlyn butcher's” - Dmytro Klaczkiwśkij's are popping up in western Ukraine.

Hmm, now you are using the method of collective responsibility. Why do you list Bandera as a mass murderer if he was arrested by Germans in 1941 and during Wolhyn massacres he was kept in the concentration camp??

Roman Szuchewicz was awarded the highest honour - the title „hero of Ukraine”. This is what Szuchewicz wrote in one of his orders:
„Śmierć jednego Lacha to metr wolnej Ukrainy, albo będzie Ukraina albo lechicka krew po kolana, Polaków w pień wyciąć.
W związku z sukcesami wojsk sowieckich konieczne jest przyspieszenie likwidacji Polaków, muszą zostać całkowicie zgładzeni, ich wioski spalone (...) ludność polską należy zniszczyć.”

Excuse me but this in only a more brutal version of what Polish leaders thought and said about Ukrainians before the war. They intended to perform the rapid polonization of Ukrainian majority, especially by closing their schools and organizations, destroying Orthodox churches and converting believers into Catholicism. Also by pacification of Ukrainian villages suspected of rebellion.

Simply speaking, the Ukrainian minority (majority in Western Ukraine) in Poland was to be destroyed. New Eastern Poles were supposed to be born out of them.

As I said, during peace time Poles did things which were only repeated on a much larger scale by Ukrainian nationalists during the war.

A monument of a person responsible for genocide of thousands of innocent civilians. Where is such monument in Poland?

There aren`t yet.
But Polish partisans who massacred Ukrainian villages are revered as heroes and memorial plaques are put in churches.

Judging by their national 'heroes'... I would not be surprised if anti-polish sentiment was prevalent there.

I don`t think so.

If you can justify ethic cleansing/genocide conducted by OUN/UPA, then you can do the same with Polish politics in Ukraine. Just put it in the right context.

So you see nothing wrong with Polish policy towards Ukrainians....

That's crazy. With such friends, who needs enemies?

I am not against the discussion about massacres. I want Ukrainian leaders state clearly that massacres were criminal acts.
But I also want Poles to acknowledge that for centuries they conducted a policy of colonization in Ukraine and the polonization methods used before the war were a grave mistake.
Salomon  2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #202
Well Nathan can post stories about Cossacks ... but unfortunately they share Polish point of view on what happened in Lwów. He claims that because of short period between years 1918 - 1939 ... ukraine was exploated nad hadn't developed... I thought that it was the Austraians who occupied Lwów in whole 19 century and just after 1918 whole region started to develop.

He can post names of Polish murderes who he claimed to be Ukrainians in previous debates ...

Of course murdering of Poles, Armenianans, half-breed childs, Jews ... and Ukrainians who were against ethnic cleanisng or who intermarried with Poles ... using axes in capital punishment for being Jewish, Armenian, Polish or half breed child ...

This was caused by polonisation in years 1920 -1939 ... but Polish point of view is shared by half of Ukraine... who see them as Nazi collaborators... According to British historician Normad Davies they murdered 500 000 people...

as to education ... it is enought to listen their porfessors claiming that Czechs occupy Ukrainian Prague ...

I have nothing agains Ukraine being independent country. I just want to notice that they are not Polish protectorate ... they governthemsleves ... but I would be very carful with them.
OP Ironside  50 | 12383  
19 May 2009 /  #203
I am not against the discussion about massacres. I want Ukrainian leaders state clearly that massacres were criminal acts.

Well, everyone should be thankful for that, you are very generous.

But I also want Poles to acknowledge that for centuries they conducted a policy of colonization in Ukraine

Sure, and eastern Germany should rightfully belong to Poland(Crow and you are in the same league).

the polonization methods used before the war were a grave mistake.

I concur there is nothing better like good ethnic cleansing.

And God save us from a really Polish government...:):):):):)

I see you don't wish to have government which would have been doing it's duty, working in interest of Poland.
Duly noted!

Excuse me but this in only a more brutal version of what Polish leaders thought and said about Ukrainians before the war.

Excuse me but those Ukrainians were forming terrorist organizations with the foreign governments help, and they were planing to rebel and that territory of Poland was never part of any Ukraine in any sense.

So if Mexican in Michigan will feel like it they should be granted right to form independent state Aztec ?! According to your logic they should but nobody sane would agree!
Nathan  18 | 1349  
19 May 2009 /  #204
So Ukrainians in L'viv, or generally in western part of Ukraine are like Mexicans in Michigan who want to build an Aztec state? You are a pathetic loser. There is no point for me to spend time of arguing with you anymore.

I think our government will recognize massacres in Wolyn, when Polish recognize massacres of Ukrainians they did in 16th, 17th, 18th centuries as well as in 20th, including Polonization which destroyed so much in my country. I think it is fair.

Also I saw AK veterans on a Pulaski parade the other day. They were given flowers by young kids etc. Why don't you condemn AK, they massacred as well, but you look with fallen jaw on UPA and their monuments in Ukraine? You want to be fair - be fair.
OP Ironside  50 | 12383  
19 May 2009 /  #205
I think our government will recognize massacres in XX century, when Ukrainian admit they are Aztec!

There no point to take you seriously anymore, I just wonder how many Ukrainians share your biased and distorted views.
Do you know what fair means?
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11820  
19 May 2009 /  #206
I think our government will recognize massacres in Wolyn, when Polish recognize massacres of Ukrainians they did in 16th, 17th, 18th centuries as well as in 20th, including Polonization which destroyed so much in my country. I think it is fair.

I don't think the Poles are ready for it yet. Still clinging to their goody-two-shoes image!
Ukraine shouldn't wait for Poland to admit something but just go forward like Germany does too (center).
Honor your Heroes and remember your dead regardless what they say!
OP Ironside  50 | 12383  
19 May 2009 /  #207
Ukraine shouldn't wait for Poland to admit something but just go forward like Germany does too (center).

Sure, hand in hand you have a practice boys!
Go for it!
thebear45  1 | 66  
19 May 2009 /  #209
Lvov is Poland!

Honor your Heroes

Honor common criminals who tortured, raped and murdered innocent women and children? Yeah, good call, moron...
McCoy  27 | 1268  
19 May 2009 /  #210
Lvov is Poland!

Lvov is Russian, Lviv Ukrainian, Lwów Polish and finally Kosovo is Serbia.

Honor common criminals who tortured, raped and murdered innocent women and children? Yeah, good call, moron...

.. and finally lost the war. cant disagree this time.

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