Territories of eastern Germany should rightfully belong to Poland?

mephias 10 | 296

3 May 2009 / #61

by anology and by all what`s going on in continuity in (at least!) 1000 years we can note that all those invaders on Serbs has common interest to defeat us.

Another example of overestimation. Wake up Crow.

In general, they (Turks, Islamic world, Germans, complete so called west)

None of them needed an alliance at least to defeat Serbs.

OP Crow 154 | 9591

3 May 2009 / #62

Aha...and your answer is conquering western Europe and to assimilate the Germanics?
That makes you different to the "false westerners, the Turks, the islamic world" how exactly?

but, Slavs are different, true representatives of West. Slavs don`t need to assimilate anybody in Germany when most of Germans are assimilated Slavs.

Why is that impossible to you to imagine that situation can change that dramatically, that Slavs stop to immigrate on so called West (particularly in Germany) and to instead of that German citizens start to immigrate into Poland, Russia, Serbia,...?

Then, in one moment, when crisis of German economy and society escalates, easily, somebody from some territories (being aware of his Slavic ancestry) of today`s Germany may understand that it is time that absurd called `Germany` finishes... and then... collapse of Germany, territories declaring independence, joining to Poland or Czeska, etc options. Of course, positive propaganda of Polish radio in case with German Slavic origin can accelerate process of disintegration of German state. :)

Let us now continue to read more, how German state (not only German state, as we can note) was created/profited on occupy ground of defeated Slavs...

The Conversion and Destruction of the Wends

By E.L. Skip Knox

Chapter 5

The year 1169 also marked the entry of Denmark into the affairs of Slavia. After 1181 the Danes began extending their control, first over Norlalbingia, then over Rostock and Mecklenburg, and finally over Pomerania.

Many Wends died in these battles, which perhaps caused more damage in Slavia than the invasions of the previous generation.

The Drive to the East slowed in the fourteenth century and was all but spent by 1400. The fourteenth century was essentially a period of consolidation, with minor victories and minor reversals.

The second question with which we began asked why there was so much violence associated with the Drive to the East. We have been at some length to show that the facile explanations offered by most historians up to now, concerning Saxon avarice and the so-called natural bigotry and greed of the Christian Church,l6 are inadequate and misleading. First of all, it is difficult to say if the violence between the Germans and Wends was exceptionally bloody. The tales of massacres, treachery, and tortures related in the chronicles...

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11923

3 May 2009 / #63

Slavs don`t need to assimilate anybody in Germany when most of Germans are assimilated Slavs.

Well....even IF that were true, nowadays most Germans have a different opinion about that.
What are you going to do about them?

Why is that impossible to you to imagine that situation can change that dramatically, that Slavs stop to immigrate on so called West (particularly in Germany) and to instead of that German citizens start to immigrate into Poland, Russia, Serbia,...?

Well...when they do this you call it "Drang nach Osten" and don't like it...:(

Do you have an idea what 80 millions Germans would do to a Poland of barely 40?
Can you image who will assimilate whom???
Think Crowie, think!

Ironside 50 | 12488

3 May 2009 / #64

Well I am from Wessex ;)

Well I am curious about that -sex bit....

OP Crow 154 | 9591

3 May 2009 / #65

Well....even IF that were true, nowadays most Germans have a different opinion about that.

most Germans? who are we to judge what is good for them. Time would show

What are you going to do about them?

but let us presume that there are former Slavs who are abosolutely deluded that they are Germans and wouldn`t return to Mother Slavija in any circumstances ... what about them... let me see... well, i wish them luck in Eurabia

There is no alternative. Only logical choice is Slavija

Do you have an idea what 80 millions Germans would do to a Poland of barely 40?

first of all Polish nation is more homogenous, at least most of Polish citizens are Slavs. German nation consists from assimilated Slavs and from who knows whom (to put cross on myself)

Then, let us speak realisticaly... it is impossible that majority of German citizens abanden Germany and chose Poland for final destination, for eternal resting place. I would personaly expect that there are better chances that Germany collapse then that most of Germans abanden Germany. ;)

Yes, if Germany become ugly place for living, there are chances that German citizens turn to ideologies which would guide them in return to their Slavic ancestry, as i already said.

Can you image who will assimilate whom???

i told you. Numerous Germans are assimilated Slavs. It would be abominable that our Lord Jesus Christ let them to assimilate more of other Slavs. It would be simple too much

No, no another assimilation. Only willingly self-re-Slavicization. It should be personal act, dependant on personal self-conciseness

Think Crowie, think!

eak

i think, i think, i doing my best

:)

Salomon 2 | 436

3 May 2009 / #66

I have video about region's situation in 10th century.

I agree with Crow that Slavic people of todays eastern Germany were assimilated by Germans. Even Otto von Bismark mentioned it in one of his speaches.

He probably desired only to have them acknowledge dependency in some way, as Henry II did with the Poles. In time the goal became the direct possession of Slavia.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

After bloodily suppressing a revolt of the citizens of Pavia, Henry remained there until May 25, when, feeling that Italy could be considered settled, he decided to return to Germany through the Saint Gotthard Pass. From Germany he launched a second campaign against Boleslaus, allying with the pagan Liutitians against the Christian Poles and waged successful campaigns that culminated in a lasting compromise peace with the Poles in 1018: Boleslaus was allowed to retain Lusatia and Meissen as fiefs, but had to give up Bohemia, which he had recently conquered.

People that Crow talks about were Polabian Slavs :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polabian_Slavs

Polabian Slavs is a collective term applied to a number of West Slavic tribes who lived along the Elbe, between the Baltic Sea to the north, the Saale[1] and Limes Saxonicus[2] to the west, the Sudetes and Franconia to the south, and Poland to the east. They have also been known as the Elbe Slavs and as Wends. Their name derives from the Slavic po, meaning "by/next to/along", and the Slavic name for the river (Labe in Czech)

Some people saved their heritage :

The Polabian language is now extinct. However, both Sorbian languages are spoken by approximately 60,000 inhabitants of the region and the languages are regarded by the government of Germany as official languages of the region.

Crow is right Germans are much more mixed than some people would think ...

In my opinion there is no need for new wars ;)

dannyboy 18 | 248

3 May 2009 / #67

Not sure if the OP is a troll, but just wondering if the OP is aware that Lithuania was at one stage the biggest country in Europe?

Austro-Hungarian Empire?

How about giving Poland and France back to Germany?
Or to Russia?
French Empire under Napoleon?
Persia?
The British Empire was the biggest Empire the world has ever seen, why not put it back together too?

The only people who determine what rightfully belongs to where are, the democratic majority or the people with the biggest guns.

OP Crow 154 | 9591

3 May 2009 / #68

well,...

In honor to all fallen western Slavs that died in medieval massacres, as a result of so called `Drive to the East` (Drang Nach Osten), I suggest that all of us give one minute of silence to those martyrs. Let me as a Serb from Balkan suggest that after that minute of silence melody and words of Polish ROTA reach as preyer hearts of our Lord Jesus Christ and his beloved Mother.

No, my intention here is not to call on violance and revenge but to warn what happened in past so that younger generations remember and that future generations avoid same destine.

here it is... [Serb from South stand for the Serbs of North, Racowie stand for Poles and for all other western Slavs.... eternal peace to all who died just because they were Slavs and defended their way of life]... pozdrav (salute)...

Download ROTA (2nd Polish Anthem) in RM format:

usc.edu/dept/polish_music/repertoi/rota.rm

Rota

Nie rzucim ziemi, skąd nasz ród,
Nie damy pogrześć mowy!
Polski my naród, polski lud,
Królewski szczep Piastowy,
Nie damy, by nas zgnębił wróg...
- Tak nam dopomóż Bóg! }bis

Do krwi ostatniej kropli z żył
Bronić będziemy Ducha,
Aż się w rozpadnie w proch i w pył
Krzyżacka zawierucha.
Twierdzą nam będzie każdy próg...
- Tak nam dopomóż Bóg! }bis

download ROTA:

ROTA`s words:

Nie będzie Niemiec pluł nam w twarz
The German will not spit in our face

Ni dzieci nam germanił
Nor Germanize our children

Salomon 2 | 436

3 May 2009 / #69

of Polish ROTA reach as preyer hearts of our Lord Jesus Christ and his beloved Mother.

There is one problem. Henrry II is Catholic saint :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

OP Crow 154 | 9591

4 May 2009 / #70

Germans are much more mixed than some people would think ...

The Lusatian Sorbs remained independent to a large extent. They were temporarily subdued by Charlemagne, but upon his death the links with the Franks were broken. In a series of bloody wars between 929 and 963 their lands were conquered by King Henry the Fowler and his son Otto the Great and were incorporated into the Kingdom of Germany. By the 14th century, the majority of Slavs living there had been Germanized and assimilated. However, the Sorbs, the descendants of the Milceni and the Lusici, have retained their identity within Lusatia, a region divided between the German states of Brandenburg and Saxony.

Despite their willing conversion to Christianity, the Slavic language was spoken by the descendants of the Drevani in the area of the lower Elbe until the early 18th century.

Source: Polabian Slavs

Map of Central Europe from 919-1125, by William R. Shepherd. The territory of the Polabian Slavs is outlined in purple near the top, with the Obotrite and Veleti groups in white and the Sorb groups colored purple

The Limes Saxoniae border between the Saxons and the Slavic Obotrites, established about 810 in present-day Schleswig-Holstein

Trevek 25 | 1699

5 May 2009 / #71

And then it'll turn up Germans want to join with Serbia and Crows brain goes *POP*

Why not? They've already joined up with Croatia!

S

Salomon 2 | 436

5 May 2009 / #72

Sabaton - Attero Dominatus

OP Crow 154 | 9591

5 May 2009 / #73

let us learn more...

Drang nach Osten

Drang nach Osten (German for "yearning for the East", "thrust toward the East", "push eastward", "drive toward the East" or "desire to push East") was a term coined in the 19th century to designate German expansion into Slavic lands.

In some historical discourses, "Drang nach Osten" combines historical German settlement in Eastern Europe, medieval military expeditions like the ones of the Teutonic Knights, and Germanisation policies and warfare of Modern Age German states like the Nazi lebensraum concept. In Poland, the term ties in with nationalist discourse that put the Polish nation in the role of a suffering nation, particularly at the hands of the German enemy, while on the German side the slogan was part of a wider nationalist discourse celebrating achievements like the medieval settlement in the east and the inherent idea of the superiority of German culture.

In Polish and Panslavic discourse

The phrase is most often used to suggest a basic continuity in German history from the eleventh century to the present...

Salomon 2 | 436

7 May 2009 / #74

Crow we need More Nietzsche in east Germany and we will make uprise there.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche

Even by virtue of my descent, I am granted an eye beyond all merely local, merely nationally conditioned perspectives; it is not difficult for me to be a "good European." On the other hand, I am perhaps more German than present-day Germans, mere citizens of the German Reich, could possibly be-I, the last anti-political German. And yet my ancestors were Polish noblemen: I have many racial instincts in my body from that source-who knows? [...] When I consider how often I am addressed as a Pole when I travel, even by Poles themselves, and how rarely I am taken for a German, it might seem that I have been merely externally sprinkled with what is German.

In it Nietzsche is even more adamant about his Polish Identity. "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood."

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11923

7 May 2009 / #75

In it Nietzsche is even more adamant about his Polish Identity. “I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood.”

Why don't you keep him??? Wasn't he a real Nietschekowski? LOL

OP Crow 154 | 9591

7 May 2009 / #76

Nietzsche

Nietzsche was always interesting to me

Salomon 2 | 436

7 May 2009 / #77

Why don't you keep him??? Wasn't he a real Nietschekowski? LOL

Bratwurst :) Now Sarcasticly tribalism or Eastern Germany ? :)

Nietzsche was always interesting to me

Yes, I agree he had very colourful personality.

OP Crow 154 | 9591

7 May 2009 / #78

an article about Lusatians, last natives on the territory of eastern Germany that survived cruel germanization of western Slavs... interesting info in case with their language...

Sorbs

The very existence of the Sorbs, a Slavic minority in Germany, may be a surprise to many.

No reliable statistics are available as to the number of Sorbian speakers today and their distribution. The traditional figure is 100,000. It is estimated, however, that only about 30,000 people are able to use the language, virtually all of whom speak German too. Indeed, one of the results of long years of bilingualism among the Sorbs has been that Sorbian no longer serves as an essential language of communication in the region.

Lower Sorbian (dolnoserbski) is spoken in the marshy Spree Forest of Lower Lusatia around the town of Cottbus (Chosebuz), about one hundred kilometres southeast of Berlin. It is used by far fewer people than Upper Sorbian and seems to be well on the road to extinction.

Together with Czech, Slovak, Polish, Kashubian and the now extinct Polabian language, Sorbian constitutes part of the Western group of Slavic languages.

Raed more... Source:
Anthology of Sorbian Poetry
Robert Elsie, ISBN 0-948259-72-8
Forest Books, London & Boston 1990
84 pp.
rastko.rs/rastko-lu/umetnost/knjizevnost/relsie-anthology.html

Germanisation

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanization

Germanisation (also spelled Germanization) is either the spread of the German language, people and culture either by force or assimilation,...

Historical Germanisation

Early Germanisation went along with the Ostsiedlung during the Middle Ages, e.g. in Hanoverian Wendland, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Lusatia and other areas, formerly inhabited by Slavic tribes - Polabian Slavs such as Obotrites, Veleti and Sorbs. Relations of early forms of germanization was described by German monks in manuscripts like Chronicon Slavorum.

Lüchow-Dannenberg is better known as the Wendland, a designation referring to the Slavic people of the Wends from Slavic tribe Drevani - the Polabian language survived until the beginning of the 19th century in what is now the German state of Lower Saxony.

Kosovo, Crowie! Concentrate on Kosovo first!!!

You are OUT man. Serbs and all Slavs already knows simple truth that Kosovo is Serbia and Slavija.

But, Kosovo isn`t topic of this thread. If you want start another thread and I WOULD GIVE YOU MORE

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11923

7 May 2009 / #79

But, Kosovo isn`t topic of this thread.

Well...when I see Serbs taking care of Kosovo we could take you seriously about Sorbs, till then it's just a joke! :)

Torq

7 May 2009 / #80

Talking about Kosovo, Germany and all - wasn't it the former foreign minister
of Germany, Hans Dietrich Gensher who said that the fall of Yugoslavia was
his biggest accomplishment in life? (I think I read it on some political/historical
forum ) Do you know anything about Germany's role in the fall of Yugoslavia, BB?

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11923

7 May 2009 / #81

Do you know anything about Germany's role in the fall of Yugoslavia, BB?

Yugoslavia (and what became of it) is not on the mind of the average German day in day out, regardless what Crowie thinks :)

This morbid obsession is absolutely one-sided, I can assure you!

OP Crow 154 | 9591

8 May 2009 / #82

Germany's role in the fall of Yugoslavia

it is story of old/new Drive to the East (Drang nach Osten) and that can be analized in context of this thread

but, tomorrow... good night for now

Ziemowit 14 | 3936

9 May 2009 / #83

Löcknitz must remain German ! - under this heading the German party NPD runs its electoral campaign with an aim of winning 7 seats in the council of Uecker-Randow, Kreis in eastern Germany. According to the newspaper Rzeczpospolita, the NPD fears that the Polish settlers whose number in the Kreis has amounted to one thousand already, could soon challange the German character of this region. About one third of the settlers live in Löcknitz (once known under the Slavic name of £ęknica), town of 3000 inhabitants to be easily reached from Szczecin (Stettin). With houses and flats being cheaper, schools of good quality, and calm everywhere, the region attracts many Poles. "No one is ready to guarantee that if things go on unchanged, the Kreis will end up becoming part of Poland" - says Tino Mueller, leader of the local NPD. He insists the Germans have enough of Polish settlers and are much afraid of Löcknitz following the fate of the nearby Stettin, a "German town taken away from Germany by Poland". Stettin will some time return to the motherland - tells the Rzeczpospolita daily Michael Andrejewski, one of the six NPD deputies to the parliament of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

Hors Heiser, deputy mayor of Löcknitz is of different opinion. "Polish settlers are a chance to the region. They do not take jobs away from us, Germans" - says the man and points to the example of the Polish company "Rago" employing six Germans and three Poles in the nearby town of Pasewalk. Its owner, Jarosław Wieczorek, stands for a seat in the election to the Kreis council which is to be held on the 7th of June. "The NPD has made no comment as yet" - he adds.

OP Crow 154 | 9591

9 May 2009 / #84

Löcknitz must remain German ! - under this heading the German party NPD runs its electoral campaign with an aim of winning 7 seats in the council of Uecker-Randow, Kreis in eastern Germany.

germanization is process that still live?

PRESSURE ON SLOVENIANS >>>

Ethnic Cleansing, European Style

aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/200109/10918-003-trae-lju.htm

Joerg Heider, head of the Austrian Freedom Party and administrator of the Carinthia region, is again giving Austria's southern neighbor a headache.

AIM Ljubljana, September 7, 2001

The Heider policy of pressure on the diminishing Slovenian minority in the Austrian part of Carinthia has never changed its nature and goal, though it used to change form often. As of recently, Heider has begun to play the open and charming politician, joyfully touring Slovenia, developing and nurturing good relations with Slovenia's officials, and promoting good neighborly cooperation, whereas at home, through administrative measures and decrees, he is gradually eliminating the remnants of the Slovenian minority living on the other side of the Alps.

spot this... should we speak about megatrends????

PRESSURE ON CZECHS >>>

FPOe labels Czech tourism promotion as offending Sudeten Germans

prague.st/upload_ctk/articles/austria-czech-diplomacy-tourism-mozart-sudeten-2nd-versi_20051214F02919.php

(adds reactions by the Greens, Czechtourism in paras 8-15)
VIENNA, Dec 14 (CTK) - The Vienna branch of the junior ruling
Freedom Party (FPOe) today attacked the Czech billboard campaign
that highlights Mozart's stays in Prague as an aspect to arouse
Austrian tourists' interest in visiting the Czech Republic, and
said it is 'distorting history and defaming Sudeten Germans.'
'W.A.Mozart stayed in Czechia five times. What about you?'
read the billboards that the Czech agency Czechtourism has had
installed in Vienna.
'This is the largest thinkable extent of distorting of
history,' the Austrian press agency APA quotes Johann Herzog, the
FPOe's spokesman for the post-war German deportees from
Czechoslovakia, as saying.
According to Herzog, the Czechs are trying to arouse an
impression as if Czechia has always spread on its present
territory, which is 'evidently not true.'

speaking about situation in modern times...

PRESSURE ON LUSATIAN SORBS >>>

In Defence of the Sorbs....Deustchwelle compares Sorbs to Turks
August 13 2005 at 11:09 PM

network54.com/Forum/65102/thread/1123988976/last-1124784827/In+Defence+of+the+Sorbs....Deustchwelle+compar%20es+Sorbs+to+Turks

Peter Philipp is a journalist for Deustchwelle and wrote an article claiming germans have nothing to fear from Turkish immigrants after the 'hysteria' of the Van Gogh attack. He claims that Sorbs are as much of a threat to German society as Turks.

Salomon 2 | 436

9 May 2009 / #85

Ziemowit

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Löcknitz

Since 1992 the bilingual German-Polish Gymnasium is visited by pupils from Germany (526 in 2008) and Poland (161), leading to the German Abitur as well as to the Polish matura. In 2008 the certificates were handed over by the foreign ministers of both countries Frank-Walter Steinmeier and Radoslaw Sikorski[1]. Since Poland joined the Schengen Agreement, the population of Löcknitz is growing, as rates and costs of land acquisition are lower than in Poland. Many commuters from Szczecin are living in Löcknitz [2] and the first economical investments are made in Löcknitz by Polish enterprises [3] [4], supported by the Löcknitz administration[1]. Children of Polish parents, born in Löcknitz receive a "Welcome grant" of 500,00 €

Well Löcknitz becomes Szczecins bedroom. Szczecin is much bigger and it is natural that this city radiates on both sides of the border. In my opinion it is in both sides inerest to develope togehter.

It has nothing to do with "Drang nach Westen" or "Drang nach Osten".

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11923

9 May 2009 / #86

In my opinion it is in both sides inerest to develope togehter.

We should just merge! :)

Salomon 2 | 436

9 May 2009 / #87

Why ? :)

Piorun - | 655

9 May 2009 / #88

We should just merge! :)

Sure, just like this.

No Germany

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11923

9 May 2009 / #89

80 Millions Germans to 35 Million Poles and what a coool big country! We would so rule!!!
:)

We could ask the Czechs and the Austrians to join us too...they are Germans anyway...whoa!!! :)

Our football team would win every tournament! YEAH!!!

Piorun - | 655

9 May 2009 / #90

You mean 66 million the rest are foreigners, besides there is a clip on youtube somewhere showing how the German is licking shoes of one of the foreigners in Germany. You guys are not a big bad wolf anymore.