Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

Hemm, i think it's a Britany Spears favourite film, yes i know....

Are you kidding me? LOL
That was almost funny, CK! Bless your little Russkie heart! :)

Yes, it's true! I remember here interview on MTV in which she said that "Steel Magnolia" is here favourit movie!!!

Guys, guys - all polish colleagues for our controversion scattered!...

By the way, being a staunch supporter оа globalisation I nevertheles can't get the following: why Soviet invasion to Afghanistan was essentially invasion and US' - fight for democracy?

P.S. I like America. I grew up in the age of video in late 80s. Being a mative moscovite i wuz pretty sure that Manhatten is more familiar to me that the centre of Moscow (its historical part).

Well then you need to see it. It is what Britney would want you to do. Please, you must honor her. We can discuss it afterward. :)

It's very sad...but i got a preventive inoculation from American marasmus which you call video or am. movie at whole

CK stop being so overly dramatic. Watching a movie is not going to extract your soul or anything! :)

Movie? Like a "Red Heat" with Stallone, wich was popular in late 80? I think it's not movie, just a trash

How about Red Dawn? :)

Don't remember such.....and how about Russian movies from your side, he-he?

Ah stop, I remember! "The Dawn of the living Deads"! Nice film

That's what it is.....Russia and Cuba invade the US and a bunch of high school kids kicks their ass. Its a classic. :)
Sorry you seemed to have missed it...... :D

I know , just messin as usual

Puzzler, you are discussing Russians as citizens of Russian Empire? Russian Empire gone away before.
You are discussing Russians as ethnic group. Among Russians the percentage of people participating in Revolution wasn't higher than among for example Polish-speaking people here. Dzerzynski and Kosior (one of the authors of Ukranian hunger in 1933 - 10 millions of victins as some Ukranian say) were only the top of communist rule.

There were some ethnies who didn't participated in communist movement (islamic peoples for example) but as to Polish speaking people that is not so


Sometimes it is better than to be invided by internal revolutionaries. You may learn that reading the works of Polish clergymen of the end of the 19 century. Such liberational movements as Red fraction led by Kalinowski in `1863 frightened them more.

From my point of view he was mutineer and instigator. He deserved the fate of another one - Pugachev (he was quartered) and there was only one madman - poor Paul I, who not only released him from the jail but gave him a pretty good sum of money and even more, offered him a ministry in government of RuEmp.


It's not correct, there was an islamic republic so-called "Idel-Ural State" but thanks god it was crushed succesfully

A nice question...
Who is rulling after communism? People away from the previous system without any knowlege how to rile? Without arms and status of public servant?
You think such people can go to power immediately or at least in some 20 years without the same atrocities, rebels and witch hunts?
No, some political technologies are required. Technologies nobody in the West toughy us. Technologies from the past such as irregular troops of middle class people etc.etc. As American militia of 18 century (existed to prevent praetorian syndrome), as volunteer courps en England in 19 century, as szhlachta of centuries 15-17.

That could take force structures away from a possible rebel or plot and in some 15 years convert them into strictly professional structures of democratic society.

The point is that we the Russian middle classers didn't receive this algorytm from Mr Clinton as well as Mr. Bush. Now we have to take it only from our pessonal historic studies and even not young people could start that work only after 1991 by the reduction of access to all information in Soviet period.

16 years isn't enough for that process. People's old-fashioning should be also taken into account.
I wonder you make such questions. In Poland you have a similar situation. Read investigation on Polish military Intelligence. Pay attention to the fact that such structure had nothing to do in Poland. Poland didn't require NATO secrets by entering this organization. Military Intelligence was unable to learn anything in East Europe because its officers were well known in our region. Military intelligence "acted" and its people received good salaries in 90 when all East European people were obliged to survive economically. And Military Intelligence supported the business of its participants using oficial status.

That occured in Poland depending of West Europe. That occured in the army integrating Nato.
Imagine such situation in Russia to which the WEst is physically unable to impose its controle.
Military Intelligence is only a visible top of an iceberg. Each powiat has its own postcommunist clan. Friends and cooperators from families formed during communism and some former dissident integrated.

One should be patient to their influence if they in change start to respect traditional Polish values but the point is that they impose their opinion to the rest of population and not the vice versa.

That occures within the EU in circumstancies of European countries mutual dependence. Imagine Russia away from EU.
I'm not sure Jaro Kaczynski will beate these clans. At least he doesn't offer any political technology with mass participation. At least he concentrated himself in lustration of ex secret service agents as if communist colaborators non-agents of secret service are less dangerous. As if secret contacts are with political police in the past is more dangerous than opened and agressive contacts op postcommunistas clans in present.

I don't think he will have any success.
Poland has nothing to teach Russians in thes sphere.


I'm sure the main progress in Russian social life (I wish it were forever) is that President in Russia is intouchable ian irresponsible as RP King in your tradition and in Constitution of 1791. The obedience is quite a different thing. I'm dealing with respect and safety of rulling person. One of the main reasons why 1917 became possible was the possibility to detrone Nicolas II and non admission of his son Alexis to trone despite legislature.

The head of the Nation is a ganantee of national unity even if he doesn't have power at all as Japanese Imperador now and sespite his personal assets. Rp is a nice example of that.

As to presidential power, it may be reduced in some years. A parlament and Prime Minister may exercise administrative functions, but now Russia still doesn't have at least a bipartisan parlament.

That's the reason why I voted in favor of Putin despite his past only because Eltsin ordered him and I'm going to vote in favor of anybody ordered by Pitin next year.

For the most ignorant people I shall respond. Thai in nothing that means obedience to Moscow. That is only question of Majestas not gouverning.
As to gouverning in my 43 years I came only to one conviction^ Szlachtic in his home is equal to vojewoda.


Do you know such nationalists? Mention their names. I know only one in Russian history (poet Tutczew) but I don't think many people follow his ideas. His nature peotical describing is more quoted.

As to the rest of nationalists they are convinced Russia should follow old European culture. First millenium in religion, past centuries in social life because moral was respected in West society. As to economy and technology Russia should be more pragmatic and folow today examples

But why we must feel shy of this? Yes, we had some prominent nationalists, Mikhail Muravev for example....;-))) but i know that Poles are not fun of this man and call him Hangman of Vilna....

Admit that Russians follow the same logic: We are not Poles. Why should we pay enormous attention to their troubles? We have ours.
Because we are guilty? Well who personally or familarly at least. Our ancestors have a strong alibi.
We are guilty because our ethnicity established communism? But representetives of different ethnicities participated in revolition. Polish speaking people also gave communists in Russia. Not the majority but correspondent to their percentage in lands non-occupied by Germans during WWI (In CzK-OGPU-NKVD before 1937 this persentage was higher than Russian one if we take into account ethnic Russian and Polish speaking shares of our population).


Nobody thinks on that. For what do we need a countri without Gas and petrileum and not an excellent well-developped economy?
Everything Russians need they have within their country. All Russian problems also exist within Russian territory. Some people think there are territories in for example East Ukraine that should be Russians by the desire of its population. But nearly the half of population are satisfied by our limits.

Russians aren't ideological now. We are more pragmatic. Not all, there are many marginal people especially among old people but the transformation goes toward pragmatism.

Being pragmatic Russians are more inderested in business with the world to the west of Odra.
Russians are afraid Slavic world between West Europe and Russii will become and obstacle in this business despite the ideals of free commerce.
By supporting the Baltic gas tube Western people confirm Russian fear. Russians come in the conclusion that if such polici is supported within the EU the unanimity doesn't exist end West Europe doesn't have enough force to impose its economical and political standarts to Slavic countries.


It is evident especially when you use such terms as otyebitsya


The majority of Russians are going to spend it within now Russian limits to construct a good life.
There are force bodies as secret services and Armed forces that prosper taking money from budget. They are interested in conflicts with the West to justify receiving money.

There are marginals that think a strong dictatorship will take money from rich people (in reality from middle-classers) and distribute it among lumpens.
No irregular troops of middle classers to defend free society.
West world provokes tentions and apparently justifies reaction forces activities


Not so now. For today Russians Germany is a symbol of Wealthy, Law, Order and Justice. Russians consider Germany France and Italy should lead Europe and teach Slavic nations within EU.

I didn't hear any different opinion in Rissia today


For Russians that wasn't the Polish question. The point is that NATO violated its gentleman word given in 1989 not to expand NATO.
What happened? The loss of credit to gentleman word and marginalization of liberal movement in Russia that had persuaded Russians to trust the West. Nothing more because Nato even being expanded isn't dangerous to Russia by its impotence to establish order even in a small territory of Kosovo.

But as to changes in the mind Russiaans don't believe the West that can violate its honest promise.
Before that Russians didn't believe their Soviet leaders only. After NATO expansion and similar collisions came the turn of the West.
It should be repeated that liberal people here are as a moral hostages in case of such violations and nobody want to become pro West except some marginal circles


Imagine such people are still here in Russia. That's the reason why Katyn doesn't attract Russian attention. There are other problems


Well, notice Germans don't accuse Russians as Pole do that despite your statement.
Why?
I think they are more developped and more realistic than romantic Slavs


Happy to hear that. It is high time to give up penetrating into other states and the affairs of other countries. It is high time to pay attention to Russian internal affairs.

The western politicians will give up provoking Russian agressive forces and lumpens? They seem to be interested in choosing Russians as enimies in order to take attention away from theis own losses within the EU.

Western budget vampires (army, military economy, secret services) willl support Russian volonteer pacification? USA vampires take nearly 600 billion USD for defending national interests of a country separated from all possible enemies by oceans. American secret services take 90 billion dollars.


My desires aren't fulfilled by intermal problems. As to Americars no force is required to beat them because they are committing a suicide now. They are too strong but their idea to put all the Universe in order requires the force they will never have. Sooner or later they will spend all their force. As to young Americans they are more interested in national self-existence. US will abandon its friends sooner or later.

Armija Krajowa veterans will tell you what does it mean to be abandoned when you are surrounded by barbarian forces


What are Polish soldiers doing in Irak now? Still looking for nuclear weapon?
Are there any Russians in Afganistan now? Which foreign troops are there today?

I wonder no Pole commented on my post in https://polishforums.com/archives/2005-2009/history/poland-russia-ending-story-11550/3/ beginning with the words Grzegorz Poland and Litwa for Politology is the same thing that Roman Empire for Law.. Including the proper Grzegorz.

Dear Poles, is it quite a frequent thing when a moskal starts to doubt about the humillation of RP past?
Your opinions are very important. Please comment if possible.
Well, I'll repeat my post:
Poland and Litwa for Politology is the same thing that Roman Empire for Law.
You can give a term to each process in politics using only Polish and Lithanian History, their political system. Till today you can understand any political process if you know RP political system and history.

RP democracy managed to resist so great attack as Potop and English or American democracies could only fail in such circumstancies. There were no adecuate survivals of any democratic or non-democratic Nation. You know? I'm ignorant. Sritish and American traditional politology is nothing in comparison with algorytms of RP. They were happy to be separated from enemies by seas and oceans, but their internal Civil wars were terrible. I'm deeply convinced in that

But neither in Polish history nor all over the world nobody respects Sarmat perioud. A great perjury in historical researches. Sometimes RP is even not mentioned in history of democratic development.

I should laught at the idea that anarchy killed RP. But see there is nothing in the world that is accepted with such unanimity as this idea. Even the idea that 2X2=4 can find more oppositors.

Polish endowments translate into Russian only historic researches that claim that anarchy was the reason of RP trouble in 1795. Even a moskal can't observe such self-humilation. in case the most RP deficiencies were more common with its neighbours (rokoszy, magnaty corruption). Nobody of these historians can even imagine that Three Black Eagles Union was a strong power. RP as well as each Nation in such situation was unable to reject. That a possible strong regular army could rebel, kill all liberties in RP kill half a population in Spy suspect take all resources of the country and then debilitated RP could be a more comfortable victim for enemies. Nobody noticed that.

Many democrates exist all over the world but when they look at RP they become to teach Tirania. Elected King is bad, reduced superior power is worse, Sejm votation in favour of war or against it is the worst thing. Nobody asked why the poor szlachta was eager to defend Golden freedom although among poor people were no Romantics. Sarmat obscurantism opposed to Enlightment is condemned all over the world - do you know the price of Enlightment, this pre-communism?

I don't speak in details about menor lie. When for example it is written that Liberum Veto killed RP, but only very few researches state that Liberun Veto ended in 1764. Many examples of the sort.

Everybody in the world condemnes RP in generar and sometimes glorifies some romantic heroes. Everybody says there was the worst in Europe the System that gave at the beginning of 16 century right to vote to a higher percentage of people than England in 1832 300 years later.

Polish literature about sarmat perioud isn't translated into Russian and even English. One cannot take from Internet in Russian or English books of Pasek or Rzewiski. Poland is fighting for Belarus democracy but it doesn't give texts on common past (Belarus ruling circles dismiss people researching Litwa history).

Many Polish public servants receive good salaries for Polish propaganda abroad but detailed Polish history isn't translated yet in the leading languages.
Everybody in the world hates RP history or loves it in some perverted forms: Many heroes bad political system.
Grzegorz, Imagine some similar is with Russia. Russia has sins but few people abroad know them (although we don't keep silence - you don't want to listen). And deficiencies you think the main sometimes are only the consecuencies as Soviet soldiers in Poland - they didn't have another way, everything started 30 years earlier. Why? By lack of democracy, poverty? Before 1917 there was a huge economic and political progress and Russia was winning a war.

I'm sure you weren't told about the reasons of communist victory.

I defend him because he is a man of his word... if a man does not have his word
he has nothing.. at least when he says something he doesnt back out on it.....

I cant say the same for you.

Preventive ? Yeah sure...Like German invasion of then neutral Dutch, Belgium. They were also pre-emptive ? Invading them before British could... Finland was similarly neutral.

Stalin wanted to enslave Finland like he did with Baltics, it was just that a) war became too costly for SU b) France and UK had also promised help to Finnish.

Despite this I really cant hate Russian people, it was Soviet Union that caused whole thing.


finnish were also vocal communist movement (also in the american communist movement). But Stalin didn't trust them and killed most of them 30s. But one was pretty influential even after Stalins death: Otto Ville Kuusinen, perhaps you have heard/read about him. And Lenin was hiding in Finland just before revolution...

All people who made revolution were killed exept very few personalities. Without any interest to ethnicity. It is a French revolution phenomenon: Revolution eats its sons

Yes, and Stalin didn't like any of his "old friends" to be around because they could use something in his past against him.

There were also other reasons. They were fighting for detronement in past and didn't have any obstacles to "detrone" Stalin.
A praetorian syndrome was a real danger. I'm sure there was a plot among militars. The text or Trial of Tuhachevski is still a secret.

In ChK-GPU-NKVD I didn't manage to find even omly one man of State Security who entered political police before 1935 ind honorably came to pension after 1957, a typical situation for law enforcement bodies all over the world

Besides that a sanation was required because the majority was composed of criminals. I read many researches on Soviet History and only two or three times met the mentioning of Red Guard (Russian SA analogue in 1917) veterans as Soviet servants in 30.

As to Kuusinen (in Soviet Union he was Otto not Ville), we know very few facts about him. To be invissible is the mail mean to survive in Soviet Nimenklatura.

I only know all his familiars (wife and daughter) were fanatic communists and also very unhappy people. His only grandson died in childhood. Kuusinen died being one of 10 Soviet leaders but he was so lonely.

Maxxx Payne you are from Suomi? I have some questions on Shutskor (irregular Suomi troops in 20-30). It is away from this forum. My e-mail is truhlei@mail.ru I'm speaking English Spanisp and a little Portuguese


Why do you think so? Do you know the principle of bicycle race? To be the second. Less force. The leader spends more force. USA are comfortable for Russia and many other ex rivals. But sometimes it seems USA are comitting a suicide as superpower. They don't have enough force to controle all the world and pay more attention to democratic propaganda and direct actions without any attention to creation of social and economic circumstancies dor democratic development

Hemm? Max! Sure, this war is not great boast, and i say more it was shameful war, but be honest pls, Suomi was on the Hitler's side during WWII, may be falsely but it was !!!

Let us returned to the topic Poland-Russia: never-ending story?.
Soviet-Suomi relations is a good topic for a detailed discussion apart.

The Polish government should seek some kind of understanding with Putin...he is flexing
his/Russia's muscles right now, and he is very cold-blooded towards their enemies, but
this was neccesary after certain 'alien elements' tried to bleed Russia dry during the
Yeltsin years...He doesn't want US missiles in Poland, and this is completely understand-
able...but he is a Slav, NOT a Communist, and Russia is Poland's most powerful neighbor
and sometimes nemesis...say no to the missiles, and maybe seek Russian help in building up Poland's defense...Poland does not have to kow-tow to the Russians, but it

must be pragmatic, and not depend on the US, which is run by an organized crime syndicate.

Ok, sorry off-topic, I'll end my part here but tell last: Finland was not a German ally in 1939 by any means, even the far-righted Finnish condemned Germany for taking over Czech in 1938 and like said, UK and France supported Finnish fight and even promised troops as did Polish. Almost everyone else but Germany supported Finnish. What happened after the Winter War is another story, and Finland really did some bad choices and we paid costly for those in the end.

I'm sure Suomi heroism during 1939-1940 was the main Reason communists gave up even thinking about its sovietization after 1944.
My grandfather's brother participated in the war 1939-1940. He told that at the beginning of the war soviet militars were told Finland is becoming a Soviet republic (later soviet archives confirmed that), but as he told me in 1980 occupation was possible only in case of murder of all Suomi people.

He was stroken by Suomi heroism.
My relative died in soviet epoch. He was a man of his epoch and didn't know secret for soviet population information we know now. He thought that war although being bad attempt to occupy Finland helped to defend Saint Petersbourg in 1941-1944 because before the Finish border was only 30 km from the city and it was easy to take the city by sudden avance.

Now I know 1939-1940 was the only reason of Suomi participation in the WWII and that without 1939-1940 the troops circle surroundinh Saint Petersbourg was impossible as well as hunger in the citi and more than a million of hunger victims.

But my relative didn't have access to that information. Despite that he told me: I'm happy I didn't kill any Finish soldier. Believe me: these words mean much when they are pronounced by a Russian man in Russian province closed for foreigners (Nizny Novgorod Volga region) in Soviet period.

As to Suomi mistakes, I shall mention its participation in that hunger blocade and cynic cooperation with Soviet power in 1960-80 not only by fear but by economic interest

Maxxx Payne
I have some questions on Suomi history. My e-mail is truhlei@mail.ru

Hunger blockade ? No, Finland did have internation camps in Eastern Karelia, but there was no participation in siege of Leningrad, Field Marshall Mannerheim was asked by Germans to take part but he refused.

But anyway thanks for your comments, we shall continue it by email.

sorry for OT again

You see I am still ignorant

I like Russians as the pepole, I think we are in some issues similar (language, cusine, traditions ect.) But our coutries has different abitions, intersts.

I have met alot of Russians or Ukrainians and we had good time together (vodka ;) )

I was born in eastern Poland (now I live in Poznan), and fore example Białystok was always full of easten slavs, who come to trade or work (illegaly) as we did in western Europe 3 years ago. And it realy disturbs me when somebody is trying to sort them in way STALIN = PUTIN = COMUNISM = RUSSKIES. I dont like when somebody hates me becase of Rydzyk Kaczysnki or Giertych.

What is more those people are realy friendly, hard working, and please stop behave like Germans in relationship with Poles.

All in all i think that history is history, politicians are politicians, but PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.

I FORGIVE BUT NOT FORGOT

What i want to admit, in relationship on the level of goverment (not people) we want Russia to live their own live and leave alone coutries like Poland, Ukraine, Baltic states. We are independent countries!!!!

What is more, ambitions of Russian authorytary government looks very funy I would say it was faltstart made by Putin .Russiaan coutry even has gas and oil, isnt strong enougt to play the game it stared plaing. And those bombers sended close to UK ... ;) some time ago Russia tried to show Poland as sick coutry in realtionships with them, but afer the rumors in Estonia, braking ati nuclera agreements, sending bombers very close UKs terytory, because of accusing them of their special agents ...

When i talk to Russians they are very often jealous, because we can change our government in election. And they can be only happy when new authorytary leader is better than last one. It is very sad because without democraic Russia it will be very hard to be calm about their aims and ambitions.

But what I want to underline : relationships betwen Polish and Russian people are much different story than relationships beetwen our governments.