Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

You have to create your slogan, I m not Russian, you told me not to teach you

You were given the explication some three times that there are many elements in chain between me and Putin. Many corrupted chiefs. You were given more than three times the explication that my main goal is to conquer my area and to oppose some magnates near me. I told you that the doubts in these magnates loyalty toward the president is one of the efficient arms.

No comments, no objections. Again about Putin that will go away next year.

You really think all depends upon one person? You have a peasant view on politics and at the same time try to teach Russians.


I'll be happy to receive good lessons but you don't give them.

I told you about main slogans and main steps possible today. You don't comment.

You started talking about the possible improvement of relations between Russia and EU. You were unable to find any Russian interest in this. Later you told that EU is unable to represent any interest to Russia. For what shall Russia improve its relation and in which direction?

You stated that Poland is an example for Russians. And quote the examples of some rebels and protests without the attention that the majority of protesting people are still loosers downstairs while those from communist system are still upstairs. So, their example is more convenient for active Russians.

Clear your ideas first

ok transformation hurts a lot of people ...

Look on veterans from vietnam, after their fight, forgoten, on the marigin of society ...

My family was always in oposition espesialy in 1945-52 and '80s. And whole family have won on transformation . But there were a lot of people who fighted against comunism and just were not so good in capitalism. Privatisation in some cases were unfair. But now throught young people there is no segregation of children of comunists and opposition. Yes some of the people are realy disappoited, Just imagine two friends form factory and one of them has his own bussines now and antoher one is working part time in factory. Even he live in better conditions he is disappoited because he was on the middle of ladder and now he is on the bottom.

And some of them are disapointed that they were fighting agains coumunism and they lost, and some of those who were in party becomed realy good in free market and they are on the top all the time.

Some of comunists just before transformation frauded some goods and had better start in new system.

We had post-comunists governemnt in our country but they used democracy and were west oriented.

But now we are going in right direction, and we have democracy and free market, our economy is stronger and stronger, and we have freedom of speach, free media ...

According Russia, you have much worst situation 0,1% of your society lives like medieval dukes, and rest just can look on it. All in all you havent fight for your freedom so you dont have the base to be disappointed.

You should made presure for more freedom, you make demostration in the defend of independent local newspaper, when you recive it you ask for more. If you dont recive it you notice your governemnt isnt as good as it pretends to be ... And you get more supporters... There will be monent when your society will see the real face of regime and your regime will notice that it is not possible to be on the top in this system and will think about transformation and their future after ...

Lukasz, that is the worst way.
No interest toward local papers should exist. Paper is quite an obsolete thins and quite expensive. Local protest is concentrated in Internet that doesn't require paper, poligraphic equipment ane even oficial registration. There are many dusputes ans protests in local internet. The most active people are all there.

There are some court disputes connected with local internet. In some places authorities accused internet activists in awaking hostility against police as profession and law-enforcement body in general. These allegations are rejected by activists and they receive supporters in the whole state.

This is only one of such examples.
Don't advice obsilete steps. Internet is ruling now, not papers.

paper was example, what I wanted to say is that you should fight :)))



;)

Why are you wasting force convincing a marasmatic man who spent some 43 years in the state without any notice of real face of rulling circles here?

The main challenge here is to protect against bydlo downstairs. Very littele Polish experience of contacts with this Russian class in 1944-45 impressioned them for three generations. Now imagine: they are always with us.

As to high class, active Russians want to be in union with them protecting collectively against lumpens and inactive people so dangerous in times of tensions.

Such union isn't easy but this is the goal for today.
Russia has a nice prospect to make the life of some 20% middle classers better than in each European state. The rest will also become happy using low-cost. And it will become undangerous in time of crisis.

That is the best way for today. But it requires other measures you mentoned


In 16-17 century it was at least clear what a fighter receives in comparison with inactive people. Inactive were slaves and iregulars - free citizens.

What about special prix for active position today?

so wait for Porshe for 2000$ and we will go our way ...

That is the challenge. Some 20% should gain Golden Liberty. But street protests and parties aren't for them.
Confederacies maybe


Lukasz why are you falsificating my words? You know well we are discussing low-cost not Porsh price reduction. Why are you rejecting the sane idea while many Poles are interested in it? Do you really think all Polish old ladies will agree that low-cost is for Moskals only?

You know Poland was waitnig only for the moment of weaknes of your country, without Soviet Union we would be democratic just after the WWII, now we can go our way. And we do it. You think your way is more proper for Russia, ok it is your choice. Go your own way. We will see who have chosen better

Everybody chooses the possible way. Polish farmers don't cultivate banans. Holland doesn't produce wood.

I think that this business will be a new attempt for russian revolution ;-)))

re: Captain's Daughter.

- I've read it countless times, also in Polish. The whole great Russian novel ( Turgenev, Tolstoy, Goncharov, Chekhov) sprang from Pushkin's prose and Gogol's prose (Dostoyevsky).

Truhlei, no I haven't read Barszczewski. Is it alright?

I'm starting reading your posts from page 12 on, and replying to them.

re: I think that this business will be a new attempt at russian revolution ;-)))

- It wasn't the Poles who played the main role in preparing and carrying out the revolution in Russia, but entirely different than us, certain little nation. Who were they, this nation, Constantine? Guess. :)

On the other hand, it was the Russians who invaded and destroyed our national order, including our monarchy, and took away our independence in the late 1700s....

ehhh ...

The percentage of Polish-speaking people that participated in Communism was the same than Russian one and in communist secret police even higher (before 1936)


That is the truth but one cannot also deny that the main ideals of RP were previously abandoned by the most influential Polish-Lithuanian groups. Bar confederacy on one hand and Enlightment on the other were ruling before 1795. These parties lost RP, not Sarmats.

In Poland comunists were in prison (before WWII)

but no no no not again history

I'm writing about Polish-speaking people within the cSoviet Union. Before 1936 they were highly represented in NKVD and their persentage in Soviet structures corresponded to the percentage of Polish-speaking population or was higher.

We don't discuss Nations now by the reason that Russia as state didn't exist in Communist period. There was a republic within Soviet Union called as RSFSR but it didn't have any army and secret police and even its Communist party (there were no such structures existing in other Soviet republics such as Ukraine or Belarus).

So we should give the analysis of ethnic groups only. Russians and Polish-speaking ethnies were as taken by their percentagies were at least equally represented in Communism within the Soviet Union. Dzerzynski or Kosior (Ukranian communist leader during great Ukranian hunger of 1933) were only the top of these activists.

One of the wrong thing Polish historians commit is the lack of interest toward Polish-speaking people life within the Soviet Union despite the fact there were mollions of such people. Not all people had enough possibility to use Optation and return Poland in 1921-1922. Only some people from west regions.

The majority of them were out of Communist activities or NKVD service (as the majority of Russians). Their difference with Russians consisted in the fact that they were by some 90% middle classers. There were also lumpens that integrated Communism and some bolchevists romantics (if romanticism can be even mentioned while we are discussing communism).

The rest was opressed by Soviet power. There were many times more victims among them than at Katyn.
I was unable to find Polish-speaking relatives of my mother despite the fact they are mentioned in Internet. The point is that all relatives mentioned are in list of those murdered in 1937-1938.

But the same situation was with Russian middle classers. I didn't feel any difference between my father's Russian ancestors and my mother's Polish speaking relatives.

The same life in fear, the same attempt to keep past in secret from children by the reason that children can tell smth. at school. The same losses of houses and lands.

The only difference was that Polish-speaking ancestors had relatives abroad and that could become known to NKVD.

What? Where did you see the order in Poland in 18 cent.? You destroyed your "national order and monarchy" yourselves, and even earlier, in 16 cent. Remember Henry de Valois!

You have started repeting lie which was discuter here, (3rd May constitution !!!)

I think that you want discuss it again to hide your "way of thinking" we have seen on last pages... no ,no my dear ConstantineK, last pages show exactly what all the people should know about our relationships.

Hemmm, dont think that I am antisemit or polonophob, but main revolution elements were Jews and Poles!

3rd May Const.? Sorry, but it was too late to reorganize RP! Moreover Russia, Prussia and Au-Hu were too inflamed by appetite at this moment...

be careful with your appetite ... Soviet Union beaten by Poland

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War

as to history, do you remember ?

You were on the knees only on front of Poles

You will remember them as well :

le views. Moreove here depicted Pskov sage, but at that times Pskov had centrifugal forces

Lukasz,

The appetite was quite common with all Nations before (and still today if we take USA military activities into account).
Sweeden, quite a modest state now, formerly was trying to convert Baltic sea into its own local lake. Germany, Austria and Russia were all enthusiasric in indea of receiving new territories as well as France or UK.

As to RP it didn't have enough force to follow these examples. That was the reason of being the victim, not any profound convincing that agression and opression is negative.

In cases RP was able to opress, that was done without any hesitation.
Very few stone (not wooden) Orthodox churches were built in Poland and Great Lithuania. Each of these churches was a great event.
RP imposed Greek Catholisism and closed many Orthodox churches. Greek Catholic Church was also disciminated in RP and no one of its bishops was senator.

That was the attitude towards minorities in RP. Fore more opression and expansion RP didn't have enough force.
Poland between WWI and WWII is also famous by opressing minorities. There are many facts that show Orthodox Polish citizens were discriminated and after high school found it very uneasy to receive an adecuate job being Orthodox.

Many discriminations of Orthodox minorities were noticed not only by Eastern residents but also by Western Europeans. There were also problems not only with Orthodox people but also with Slovak minority.

For more Poland didn't have force. Only to participate in such actions as Czesz partition in 1938.

Is it a good way to condemn those who had force to opress is the only reason why RP and later Poland didn't follow that examples was the lack of force only?

pain :)

ok so maybe Russian tsar, who came to Cracow asking Polish king for help , we werent interested so he converted into catolic religion and gained support of some Polish nobels who helped him to take moscov and were using him as a puppet :) we were there before Napoleon and we were much longer there (Polish flag was on the top of kreml) ...

False Dimitry case shows us an opposite example. He wasn't supported by szlachta and qualified by the majority of Poles as usurpator. Unfurtunately Zygmund Wasa helped him despite RP interests buy nothing condemning szlachta in general.

The same situation with Wladyslaw Wasa invitation by Moscow in 1610. That was Zygmund's game when he didn't wasnt to follow Pacta Conventa with Moscow and decided to rule in Moscow himself.

In both cases only some RP aventurists participated (invited by False Dimitry in the rirst case and employeed by Zygmund in the second one). Including such personalities as Lisowski sentenced to death in RP.

On the oter hand Russian defenders used RP models for liberating the state. Minin and Pozarski militia was a real RP military confederacy (the use of this model is quite evident). The election of Michail Romanow used in much RP electoral model. There was also a Pacta Conventa approach in 1613.

So RP was a winner. Not by its force but in more glorious case: by its model.


That was the idea of Zygmund, not of the majority of RP szlachta.
Zygmund complicated much for RP. He was under jesuit influence.
There are some historians thinking that Royal powerty in RP was quite weak. This example shows us it was abundant.

During Zygmund jesuits not only imposed Catholic faith. They attracted Russin szlachta not to Greek Catholic Church but to Roman one telling illiterate people that Easern rite is only for chlopy.

They destroyed checks and balances in in Ukraine and that was the main reason of rebels there.
Wladyslaw Wasa was much better. He did his best to correct his father's mistakes but it was too late.

Agree we were so stron because of our model, everybody wanted to join us to get the same rights as our citizens. That is why our neighbours were so furious about our contitution in XVIII century ...




Oh yes minorietes had easy life in our neighbours countries ... espesialy in Hitles Germany, or ortodox in soviet union ... That is why they were coming to Poland

Yes I agree.
But when even a telegraph was still out of existence, such democratic rules could be only in a limited territory. Even in RP real democratic state existed in a limited territory of historical Poland and Central part of Great Lithuania. In territories organized in 14 century to oppose German agression.

Kresy were out of democracy. They were always wild.
Human history doesn't know examples of democracy in great territories before some 1850 when telegraph and railway appeared. USA were quite a separated states before.

If it takes elected parlamentarians more than 3 weeks to reach catital no popular representation is possible. Only metropolian oligarchy.
Russia received the opportunity to become democratic only in the second part of 19 century, but that was the perioud of revolutions in all Europe.
There were many attempts to establish democratic rule before. During Wassily Szujski (1605-1610), Michail Romanow (since 1613), Anna (in 1731) but they all were blocked by little nobility. Middle classers reasoned their opposition by the reason they can't participate in ruling the state from province and democracy will mean the dictatorship of some magnates only.


Do you really think it is good for reputation of any state to compare inself with bolchewicks?


When RP democracy was in action that was a nice example. In the late 18 century that tradition was abandoned in RP

we play the same games all the time ...

Look on the map, terietories which belonged to Poland votes for democracy, especially those which were in Poland in 1918-39 . they tasted life in Poland and in Russia.



It could go better, but it seams that Ukrainians catched the rules of free election ... so it is good step. We had our Oleksy as well, so maybe Jankuwicz will not be so bad. We will see after up coming elections. But the people on the streets knows what they want ...

Why in this case the reputation of Poles is so different in 16-17 centuries and in 19-21?
Formerly Poles were enemies for many its neighbours but highly respected enemies. Nobody told about Polish-Lithuanian szlachta anything common with today opinion in Germany for example.


Ex Polish territories were Juszenko voters. That is the West Ukraine. It is Greek Catholic in its majority. They are a separated ethnic group. I don't think that occures only because they were Polish. Austrian influence is more sensible there. By Austrian inspiration they became murderers of Polish-speaking people. Poland will have problems with them again.

Ukranian Central territory didn't belong to RP or Poland since 18 (sometines 17) century. They were Timoszenko voters. The East Ukraine was never Ukranian before 1917. They are Janukowicz voters. Among them only Janukowicz family was Polish before 1939 by the reason they were West Balarus residents.


The first serious conviction of the sort I hear. Are you sincere?

LOL Germans were always Polonophobic with anty-Polish propaganda. Read some books ...

We dont worry they were on the knees as well :)))



Do you know that after smashing your army in 1914 near Tanennberg they told that it was the revange for Poles (there were some Lithuenians, Tatars, and Smolensk troops) smahing them in 1410 in the bigest medieval battle (Grunwald very close to Tannenberg).



The true is that for them slav is slav

I'm sure Poles and Lithuanians had a different reputation among Germans in 16-17 centuries. As to Russia I'm absolutely sure bacause I read lots of opinions of that perioud. RP was a respectable enemy and szlachta was the main example of behaviour.

All that ended by the second half of 19 century when Russians started to imagine Poles as an ordinary Slav ethnie.