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Poland-Russia: never-ending story?


Puzzler 9 | 1,088  
22 Sep 2007 /  #361
Oh, here comes my Russian buddy Truhlei. Nice to see you again. Have you got Davies's God's Playground already? Right now I'm reading Pushkin's poetry (in Russian) and his stories (in English translation). Sorry for cutting in like that, I just wanted to say hello and really nice to see you.

;)
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #362
Puzzler,

I left a great amout of posts especially for you since page 12.

Right now I'm reading Pushkin's poetry (in Russian) and his stories (in English translation).

Have you read Szlachcic Zawalnia by Jan Barszczewski?

Have you got Davies's God's Playground already?

Not yet. I'll do that. But don't forget^ many people all over the world can'r read thei book because it is out of Internet. Copyright is a good thing but sometimes it can damage History

I'm reading Pushkin's poetry (in Russian) and his stories (in English translation).

Read Captain's daughter. The novel was previous to Sienkiewcz books. It seems to be of the same dtyle. I'm sure H.S. read it

And theory about good nation leaded by bloody regime is true

That never occures.

Lukasz I'm in opposition to Russian authorities today. Not to Presidential status because his status is the only thing that can unite all Russians i.e. people of very different views.

I'm liberal in internal affairs. I also defend the principle of future Russian permanent military neutral status (like Sweedish one). Russia has to withdraw all its troops from other states and concentrate its attention in the defence of its own territory only, abandoning all military unions with other states because these unions are quite expensive for Russia and not efficient.

I'm sure Russia should ignore US provocations and protest only by words. Sooner or later USA will spend all its force teaching democracy in Iraq or Iran and miltipolar world will come.

These are my ideas. Some 30% of Russians can share them just now.

But I hate those who teach Russians from a secure distance as they taught AK earlier.
I hate those who received democracy as heritage and don't know its mechanisims. Those who give Russians absurd advices and considers that everything depends upon the process of votation.

I hate those who support today Russian "opposition" of Kasparow & Kasianow because such support is very similar to Soviet support of Communist parties in the West. This opposition is marginal. Besides that some of them use National-Bolshewick Party of Limonow (nazi-communist in my opinion) because they don't have enough agressive members and Limonow's fellows are in my opinion like SA in Germany.

All your posts show you take information from such mass media as Wpost for example. Loosers are sent to Russia to write about our reality. Very few specialists such as A. de Lasari are experts but they stick more to cultural issues. Nie is out of critics. To receive defence from them is worse than condenetions from the others.

The way Polish journalists describe Russia is subordinated to their own complex. They look for poor people in the province and listen to their sad stories about poverty. Nobody notices they are lumpens.

As to politics, only stereotypes are repeated. All journalists think all depends upon President in Russia and all depends upon a good choice of a man to this post. That is quite a totalitarian way of thought. People surrounding President and many chiefs downstairts are very interested in this. They don't limit themselves by subordinating and do much despite orders but they are always ready to make a presidential sacrification, to detrone him if necessary (or if he starts controling them) and to show themselves as executive only, as people who onle filfilled orders. The same thing was in 1917. That was by the way the reason why Poland didn't receive independence as promiced in 1914 and became socialist.

An approach like Japanese one of 1945 (King is innocent servants will pay for all) is required in today Russia. That will be the beginning of democratic changes.

But that is rather complicated for narrow minded Polish journalists sent to Russia. They repeat marasmatic ideas of other mass media. It is rather dangerous for reputation and career to contradict worls mass media.

I'm also mass media servant. I know this

The EU is looking for common Enemy. It is quite uneasy to make a European community without this element. New approaches are required. What for? If eurobureaucrat can receive a great salary using the exploitation of old fears. Are they interested in democratic and peaceful Russia? No. In this case they will become unable to keep European attention away from their problems.

We mentioned low-cost as one element only. The situation is rather marasmatic here ans millions of people may feel that. But low-cost means hard activities and possible confrontation with today manufacturers.

Confrontation with Russia is better.
As to Russia, the same thing. Lots of polititians who exploit old stereotypes. They are quite rich to share the interests of the men in the street. For them it is more easy to use obsolete slogans about superpower and past victories (they won't pay their own blood for next victories). They are quite invulnerable becaude the use US precedents in Iraq and EU in Kosovo. They are going to spend the rest of Russian resources for new battles. They all hate middle class because these people may become free and work as in the West and in this way to keep away from inferiority complex. But that will be the end of slavery and magnate dominium.

The only way is to separate middle class (some 20% of population) and to create irregular service for them. In this case businesmen, managers, public sevants military officers and law enforcement bodies officers, i.e. middle classers well feel themselves together and some independence upon magnates. Besides that such Organization will prevent Praetorian rebels and politics in defence of lumpens. That will make many reforms possible because now they aren't carried out by fear that magnates KGB and militars may rebel.

Those who gain money and serve to society will be able to defend themselves.
That was the best way to democracy in European and American history. Consult historians if you have doubts. Besides that extremism never won in stater with irregular bodies.

And what do I hear from the West? I hear that ruling circles should have a zooligic duty to take care of human rights. A crazy idea. Papers and freedoms in papers mean nothing (as well as oppositions and elections) if middle classers don't know how to defend themselves.

Your posts show that you can't imagine a state of 142 mln residents it a great territory isolated from EU and quite invulnerable. Only balance of forces can give freedom. Not a crazy liberast opposition but new structures and a real army (irregular) of middle classers. Only in this case Russia will become softer and concentrated in economic development. Only in this case Russia will be able to survive next gas prices fall without damage to its citizens and neighbours. Only in this case it will become neutral and indifferent.

As to Western mass media, nothing of similar analysis you can read. Only stereotypes. So don't repeat.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
22 Sep 2007 /  #363
Ok truhlei

I see you have positive attitude towards Poland.

So I will give you personal advice. Never count on others, you can get some help but the most important thing is hard work. To be honest nobody will give you "low cost cottages" for free, to make Russia stronger, you should take your opportunity coming from gas and petrol for develpoment. Educate your kids, make taxes lower, promote succesful people (in positive way), And try to change your coutry yourself, invest your money, run your own business, and vote for change. Putin is old KGB spy, you dont need that kind of leader.

You dont have real opposition ?

So why dont you try to make your own political party, when you think that 30% of your society wants liberal Russia living in pace.

No body will do it for you, your own society must do it. And just try to do it, and you will see why we consider Putin as authorative ruler ... Yes try to make local commiety for democracy in Russia, or liberal Russia, you will see ...
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #364
Putin is old KGB spy, you dont need that kind of leader.

Russia needs an intouchable and irresponsable President (terms of Polish Constitution of 1791 you are so admired).
To make the rest touchable and responsable.

To be honest nobody will give you "low cost cottages" for free

You don't read my posts. I wrote that coordination may be in EU or USA. Because such priojects can't be national. That is ab obsolete approach. Why are you again back to the idea that low-cost is smth. like present. You are so charmed by EU present that keep your attention away from the necessities of Poles?

Educate your kids, make taxes lower, promote succesful people (in positive way), And try to change your coutry yourself, invest your money, run your own business, and vote for change. Putin is old KGB spy, you dont need that kind of leader.

These things are on now. Stimulated by Putin. There are some dissapointed people away but 80% of Russians are for today changes despite many negative points

You dont have real opposition ?

So why dont you try to make your own political party, when you think that 30% of your society wants liberal Russia living in pace.

Well I'll answer. I'm 43. Some 17 years I spent only to learn mechanisms of democratic process. Reading and studying European and American past. These lessons don't come from the West. We, the Russians have to learn ourselves democratic technologies Europeans forgot.

That requires much years.Notice: I don't mention the lack of money and the fact that it is very uneasy to find support of ruling circles. That is my problem.

I only mention that many Russian years are lost for the study of democratic technilogies that should be in many books but in reality are only in RP history.

And just try to do it, and you will see why we consider Putin as authorative ruler ...

Try to read I wrote to you and you will see why we consider EU as hostil organization.

So I will give you personal advice. Never count on others, you can get some help but the most important thing is hard work.

Golden words for a primitive indian from Amazonas...
Do you really think Russians are still waiting smbd will help them? What is it? Superiority complex or you want to repeat the words Poles heared in Bonn 15 years ago?
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #365
Limonow's National - Bolchewick Party banner. These are those who form opposition with Kasparow. You are admired by this union. The banner doesn't seem similar to anything?



Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
22 Sep 2007 /  #366
truhlei, make your own liberal party, You said that there is about 30% support for real liberals, and they dont have party to vote. 30 % it is good groud ... Why dont you try ?

according EU if you think it exists only because of Russian thread ... no comment.
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #367
Lukasz,

I gave you my vision on today Russian situation. My view of the possible ways to reach democratic progress in the state.
I told you something about how I understand democratic theory in general as well as the secure base of free society. I spent much time describing all this.

Yes, I may be wrong. I'm looking for criticism because that can perfect my vision.
Tou didn't analyse my ideas. You didn't look for weak points or contradictions.
The only thing you did was teaching. Using common words any European can tell some african pagan tribe.
What does it look like?

The second question:
If you have such opinion on Russians, why you hate millions of Poles. We are discussing low cost that is also necessary for many Poles?

Do you really thenk an old Polish woman may buy a 2500 USD second-hand and repair it later?
Do you really think each Pole prefers working abroad even if a cottage for his family is available while he works at home? Do you really think Everybody wants to pay 25 years for a little flat in case if a 17000 cottage is available?

according EU if you think it exists only because of Russian thread ... no comment.

EU servants can live easier while they exploit fears. That is what I said. It was written that efficient work for EU people and new approaches are more difficult. Read that again.

truhlei, make your own liberal party, You said that there is about 30% support for real liberals, and they dont have party to vote. 30 % it is good groud ... Why dont you try ?

I'm trying to do that. But the technology should be unusual for you.
Tell me about your work and I'll give you some marasmatic examples of opinions how to make this business. That will help you to understand me what I mean while discussing Polish mass media about Russia.

By the way the translation of Polish articles about Russia and making it public among Russian internet users is supported by Russian officials.
They want Russians to know what is written about their state. You think Russian authorities keep criticism in secret from society...
The vice versa. They do their best to let Russians know. Western mass media read by Russians is the best Russian govermental propaganda.
southern 74 | 7,074  
22 Sep 2007 /  #368
Trabant a low cost vehicle will be set in production again to satisfy african people needs.
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #369
I don't think it is a good idea. Trabant is quite obsolete and new plastic techlologies appeared.
New investments in research are required. Old people's cars are old. New masterpieces are required.

Trabi in Africa is one of the examples that social need in low-cost exists and new research isn't in adecuate process.
Let us see Renault Nissan for USD 3000. In may be interesting but I doubt they will make the best model for this price bacause the research didn't attract billions of dollars.
southern 74 | 7,074  
22 Sep 2007 /  #370
In China they produce and use some very cheap General Motors mini vans.They cost about 5000$ but they are not allowed to export them to other countries.
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #371
That is not a serious approach. For serious one billions of dollars are required but the number may be more than some 200 million azll over the world.

For a really low-cost masterpiece many new know-how are required. The main challenge is unexpensive plastic body without painting. Its parts should be replaces without difficulties by owner. After accidents body should be rapaired quickly and cheeply. That influences in assurance.

Low cost should have such a construction that may permit it production even in very little plants without great investments. And so on.
That is very expensive.

Safety without expensive airbags also requires a new construction ob body. That is the reason why such cars as Trabi aren't convenient today - a shotr distance between the driver and front crystal.

Besides that Trabi was expensive in reparations. He had a duroplast body that mechanics found quite uneasy to repair. Reparations may cost the same as works with BMW.

New low-cost vehicle should in my opinion have tube body of sections user can substitute and plastic panels. That will make reparations less expensive and the car won't meet rush as it happened to another great ;ow-cosr Citroen 2CV.

Besides that plastic will take manufacturer away from painting. That is quite expensive at production as well as at reparations.

Low=cost isn't for Chinese car manufacturers. They can only copy western and Japanese models. New solution isn't still for them. Only Western and Japanese constructors can do that.

But many leading car manufacturers aren't interested in low-cost despite the graet number of future consumers.
Look: Car manufacturere receives some 3000 USD of profit from each BMW. From Dacia Logan gives as profit only 400 USD.
Low-cost for 2500 USD will give some 40 USD of pure profit. Besides that the equipment of their traditional plants in which they invested won't be useful for low-cost.

So only manufacturers of details and engines may be interested. The engine today is of some 10% of car price only. Nobody will save money producing a low-cost engine. So engine manufacturers will receive many new consumers if low-cost appeares. There are other interested manufacturers but they all depend now upon the interests of car manufacturers and don't want to have problems. And they can't attract billions of dollars for research.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
22 Sep 2007 /  #372
Is it ok ? :)))
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #373
That occures when:

To be honest nobody will give you "low cost cottages" for free

That cars will appear in EU if you conflict with Gasprom. They will come in such vehicles to solve conflicts. Be careful.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
22 Sep 2007 /  #374
ok I have some interesting data, according partners size

data is from 2005 but we have made similar progres

Russia 140 mln people whole GDP (not per capita) 385.3 mld EUR (you have here : gas, petrol, industry, services just everthing)

Poland 38 mln people GDP is 243.4 mld EUR.

So all in all in Polish economy isnt much smaler than yours.

when we take GDP per capita (per person)

Russia GDP is about 2752,14 EUR
Poland GDP is about 6405,26 EUR

source: EUROSTAT

do you know what do we think when we see you sending space rockets, or building new strategic bombers, or missiles ...

Just take take our expirence ... and become more or less but democratic country, using free market. And just stop talking about "low cost" something ... whole world works every hour to produce cheaper and better products.
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #375
do you know what do we think when we see you sending space rockets, or building new strategic bombers, or missiles ...

I suppose that the same thing as Russians hearing abour USA agression in Iraq and anti missil projects.
I can feel that
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
22 Sep 2007 /  #376
no my dear truhlei,

USA GDP is about 10037,1 mld EUR

... politely we think, yes they are spending they money on S*** they are to weak to use.
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #377
You really could use our expirence ... and become more or less but democratic country, using free market.

In quite an uncontroled state of 142 mln residents where the law is forest and a bear is justice? Don't be crazy. Europe could influence in Poland and you became better. Your posts show that by your own force it would be impossible.

You didn't oppose to my posts. You didn't notice weak points. You didn't try to make even a brief analysis.
You only want to show you are better but if it was your merit you would comment on my ideas with more professionalism.

And just stop talking about "low cost" something ... whole world works every hour to produce cheaper and better products.

That was my information I told you. You didn't mention anything concerning low-cost although you were the man describing prospects of EU. Before I mentioned low-cost you were admiring by western politics only.

When low-cost was mentioned you compared it with communism (Henry Ford and Levitt family are communists).
When this idea was shown as absurd, you immediately became sure the West is already inventing something.
First make your ideas clear and millions in Russia will follow you.

no my dear truhlei,

USA GDP is about 10037,1 mld EUR

... politely we think, yes they are spending they money on S*** they are to weak to use.

Sorry I thought you are for peace and military activities don't enthusiast you as it is in my case.
I didn't imagine you are admired that some GDP permits wasting money on military.

... politely we think, yes they are spending they money on S*** they are to weak to use.

Sorry I didn't notice that
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
22 Sep 2007 /  #378
Quoting: Lukasz ... politely we think, yes they are spending they money on S*** they are to weak to use.

it was about Russia ... personaly i think that USA is doing the same S*** but they can use their power
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #379
And just stop talking about "low cost" something ... whole world works every hour to produce cheaper and better products.

What an anti-west totalitarian control! Stop talking about the real changes all over the world thanks to Western organization, industrial lewel, responsability. Yor are like Kim Il Sung. You want to stop any information about future Western great victory all over the world!

I'm sure it must be proclaimed everytime! The best Western asset in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
22 Sep 2007 /  #380
Oh my god, western, eastern, totalitarism. I dont understand you. There is nothing like one western world. Europe tries to be one partner for USA. Japan is democratic as well. Ther isnt one western democratic world.

In quite an uncontroled state of 142 mln residents where the law is forest and a bear is justice? Don't be crazy. Europe could influence in Poland and you became better. Your posts show that by your own force it would be impossible.

First make your ideas clear and millions in Russia will follow you.

We were much poorer than you are now, without "low cost" cars or cottages

solidarity poland
truhlei 10 | 332  
22 Sep 2007 /  #381
There is nothing like one western world. Europe tries to be one partner for USA. Japan is democratic as well. Ther isnt one western democratic world.

Sorry I don't mention in any case the West and Japan-Korea
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
22 Sep 2007 /  #382
i changed my previous post I hope you noticed

look esp. on 2nd quote
truhlei 10 | 332  
23 Sep 2007 /  #383
We were much poorer than you are now, without "low cost" cars or cottages

We all today need low-cost.
Russia with average salary of USD 500 as well as Poland that may be much more rich
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
23 Sep 2007 /  #384
Russia with average salary of USD 500 as well as Poland that may be much more rich

average salary is about 2800 pln (data from this mounth) dolar costs about 2,6 pln so we earn about 1076 $ per mounth (without tax), but... but it doesnt mater.

truhlei EU, USA or Putin are not going to give you democracy, you have to go on the street and finght for that
truhlei 10 | 332  
23 Sep 2007 /  #385
you have to go on the street and finght for that

Is that your idea?
Do you really think it is enough to go on the street? Without any militia, without total control over residential sector and places of work and business? Without any technology?

Lukasz, you don't read I wrote to you. Yuo don't comment on that. You don't reject.
The only thing you do is the repeating of thesis about popular protest and freedom. Only those who have organization can win.

average salary is about 2800 pln (data from this mounth) dolar costs about 2,6 pln so we earn about 1076 $ per mounth

Can you see the dates on Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria?

you have to go on the street and finght for that

Another question:
Which are the slogans for protests in the street now? Your opinion...
truhlei 10 | 332  
23 Sep 2007 /  #386
There are constructive manifestations in Russia now. The majority of them are against construction of new buildings when residents think it can make their life less easy.

Today another type of street protests is developping. The protest against unjustified price on new technologies. In Province against internet high-cost because some local telefonic monopolists established high price on ASDL trafic. Such manifestations give results and price usually goes down in protesting cities. It will be down in all Russia soon but new motives for protest against prices on new technologies will appear. I'm sure.

As to Russian political opposition, well...
I'll show one of its slogans again:



Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
23 Sep 2007 /  #387
Look on histoy of our fight

1945-52 open military fight against red army and comunists

more significant riots, protestes, manifiestations against comunism:

1956

1968

1970

1980-81

and the end

1989

We know It was your system, and we were only waiting for your weaknes, I give you our expirience, you can use it or not it is your choice.

But what I have noticed, Russia which pretends to be so strong ... and Russian society ... weak and not able to resistance.
truhlei 10 | 332  
23 Sep 2007 /  #388
We know It was your system, and we were only waiting for your weaknes, I give you our expirience, you can use it or not it is your choice.

You don't give me any experience That is not the experience. Only romantic history quite brief bacause you don't mention rebels of 1830 and 1863 as well as 1944.

As you rightly notice everything depended upon first relations among three Black Eagles and second upon weakness of Communism. All victories came when the West started influencing in 1989.

Russia is quite a great state and EU is unable to control it.
So this experience is not for us.
Besides that the majority of protesters are still downstairs in Poland and as to Party activists of Polish People's Republic they were the first in integrate into new system and they are more wealthy now than before 1989.

This experience is more evident and useful for Russians. That is one of the reasons active people don't protest.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
23 Sep 2007 /  #389
yes yes count on Putin
truhlei 10 | 332  
23 Sep 2007 /  #390
But what I have noticed, Russia which pretends to be so strong ... and Russian society ... weak and not able to resistance.

That is the main challenge that makes us anxious. But you didn't mention any slogan...

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