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Poland: dont blame us its the Germans.


Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11710  
17 May 2009 /  #31
Oh pleeeeeaaaaase....blame if it makes you feel better! BLAME for f*uck sake...it won't change one yota but who cares....

*takes helmet*
Seanus  15 | 19666  
17 May 2009 /  #32
I agree, BB. Here we are, with 52 years of Europeanisation designed to build cordial ties and people are still pointlessly, um, pointing back to WWII :(

We won the war, relax guys :)
sjam  2 | 541  
18 May 2009 /  #33
it won't change one yota but who cares....

.... These people obvioulsy do.

Neo-Nazis screaming 'Heil Hitler' attack concentration camp survivors during memorial service for 345,000 dead [/url]
12th May 2009
dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1180599/Neo-Nazis-attack-concentration-camp-survivors-memorial-service-345-000-dead.html

Masked neo-Nazi thugs screamed 'Heil Hitler!' and 'This way for the gas!' at ten elderly Italian men and women, who returned to the site of the Mauthausen concentration camp in Austria.

The gang also fired air guns at a group of 15 French survivors, many dressed in the striped pyjama-style uniforms they wore as inmates. One suffered a head wound while another was injured by a shot in the neck. The four thugs managed to escape.

But the same spirit that kept them alive back then was still evident among the survivors who fought with the cowards who desecrated the memory of their dead comrades.

They even succeeded in ripping the mask from one of them and taking his picture with a mobile telephone camera.

people are still pointlessly, um, pointing back to WWII :(

Maybe if you were a victim/survivor it wouldn't seem so pointless.
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11710  
18 May 2009 /  #34
Neo-Nazis screaming 'Heil Hitler' attack concentration camp survivors during memorial service for 345,000 dead
12th May 2009

Blame the Austrians....

...or the Poles: polish neo nazis
Seanus  15 | 19666  
18 May 2009 /  #35
Yes, sjam, my point is crystal clear. The war ended 64 years ago, kapisz? That's over 6 decades. It took only 8 years after the war to form the ECSC. If I were a victim, I'd know it was due to a madman being allowed to rise to power and so-called experts not reading the warning signs. Chamberlain, the romantic, being first among them.
OP Wroclaw Boy  
18 May 2009 /  #36
Blame the Austrians....

Austrians, havent heard that one before.
Seanus  15 | 19666  
18 May 2009 /  #37
Well, they spawned Hitler :( Oh, and that Fritz guy.
sjam  2 | 541  
18 May 2009 /  #38
The war ended 64 years ago, kapisz?

In the context of Poland this depends which history books you are looking at—you could take a look at:
Atlas polskiego podziemia niepodległościowego 1944-1956 : Dr. Rafał Wnuk, Wydawca: IPN, Rok wydania: 2007
isthatu2  4 | 2692  
18 May 2009 /  #39
and the Von Trapps!! The biggest crime against humanity of the century.
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11710  
18 May 2009 /  #40
Austrians, havent heard that one before.

Well....read the link...
ZIMMY  6 | 1601  
18 May 2009 /  #41
people are still pointlessly, um, pointing back to WWII :(

Not "pointlessly"; people rarely seem to learn from history - and they should. As to winning the war, well, that's not true for Poland now is it? The people had to live under tyrannical communism while the allies celebrated.

The Polish 'beefs' are legitimate and still too close (timewise) to so many.
Seanus  15 | 19666  
18 May 2009 /  #42
I agree that the Polish beefs are legitimate and the wounds are still felt. Still, Poland has modernised itself and you have to go with the times.

Everything is politicised and that's what gets me. It is written in Auschwitz that we should learn and never repeat the mistakes, as you advocated. Of course I'm with you on that but the Balkans was one big mess, as was Rwanda. What compounded matters was that major institutions were behind it. The very people that should've prevented it.

I was just making the point that people pointlessly blame. Many of those Nazis are dead and gone. A missed opportunity to indict them.
jeep  - | 23  
19 May 2009 /  #43
Your mistake is to blame one race when many races were involved.

The Nazi creed, the most vile plague that ever crawled this earth, established it's evil largely through racial hatred.
Nazis were the so-called Master "Race".
But it was only a matter of signing on the dotted line to become a member of the "Master Race". third class.

Race became a matter of party membership.

Nazis saw some races as a threat to the purity of the "Master Race".
They, Jews, needed exterminating, along with mentally ill, gypsies, etc.

Other races just needed their non-Nazi leaders exterminating.
The rest would be useful workers, incapable of original thought.
Nazi considered Poles fitted that category.
Big mistake.

The Nazis were happy to work "inferior" races to death as slave labour.
Polish Nazis were happy to work Polish slaves to death.
French Nazis were happy to work French slaves to death.

The creed is to blame not a race.

It's pointless blaming modern Germans for Nazi evils.
They are victims of Evil Adolph's crazy creed.
Modern Germans are not responsible in any way for the racial hatred that engulfed Europe after WW1.

Blaming Germans and Nazi-ism have much in common.
They are bloated with evil, and awash with racial hatred.

Blaming Germans for the Nazis is an Evil Creed.
Just as evil as Naziism.
And and spawned by the Evil genius.

Move on.
Attack Racial Hatred.
Attack Naziism.

There's probably less racial hatred in Germany today than in most other countries in Europe.
Harry  
19 May 2009 /  #44
Statistically speaking, a non-white person is far less likely to be the victim of racist crime in Germany than they are in Poland.
jwojcie  2 | 762  
19 May 2009 /  #46
No concept of vendetta in Polish culture?? I think some know the meaning of 'odwet' i 'zemsta' here, let's not kid ourselves.

Hm... I suppose it was ironic on your side :-) These are even two different words in Polish: 'wendeta' and 'zemsta'.
Seanus  15 | 19666  
19 May 2009 /  #47
Yeah, I'm not saying it's prevalent by any means, it's not Sicily we are talking about here. It's human nature for the most part :)
Foreigner4  12 | 1768  
19 May 2009 /  #48
Hooray! Let's play the "Time Machine Blame Game" Here's the rules, set up your time machine in your head. Pretend to go back in time. Play out scenarios as you imagine them. Pretend the picture of the place and time you go back to is completely factually accurate. Assume all things today stem from your pretend factually accurate imaginings. Place blame accordingly. It's fun, easy to do, you're always right and anyone who thinks differently than you is always wrong.

My turn to play:
If we could go back to any place and any time the world i'd be willing to bet people did worse things than the nazi war machine did. And, just like those events it will at some point stop being fashionable to blame them or pretend they did anything that any other group of people wouldn't have done given the circumstances. Likely that will happen when the next overt attempt at a large scale military takeover.

That is all.
Harry  
19 May 2009 /  #49
Prove it.

No problem.

In Germany there are the 2,080,000+ non-whites I have already mentioned and another 840,000 Germans of Turkish descent. That makes at least 2,920,000 non-whites. In 2005 (the last year for which data is available for both nations) there were 15,192 "politically motivated - right wing crimes" (a definition which includes things like giving the Heil Hitler salute or having a copy of Mein Kampf). That makes a total of one crime per 192 non-whites. In other words a non-white in Germany has a one in 192 chance of being the victim of racist crime.

In Poland we have 24,809 non-whites (if we make the over-estimation that all of the Other, English, French etc are non-white). In 2005 there were 172 'racist' crimes reported under different legal articles. That makes one racist crime for every 144 non-whites. In other words a non-white in Poland has a one in 144 chance of being the victim of racist crime.

The links to the sources used are in this post: https://polishforums.com/archives/2005-2009/news/racist-text-book-schools-34322/
Salomon  2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #50
In Poland we have 24,809 non-whites

First of all ...
Lets take Vietnamise: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Vietnamese

Probably more than 50,000 Vietnamese live in Poland, mostly in big cities.[citation needed] They publish a number of newspapers, both pro- and anti-Communist. Only some of them belong to three organizations.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_populations

Poland 15,000 to 50,000

... I could contiune ... but I don't have the time
Harry  
19 May 2009 /  #51
First of all ...Lets take Vietnamise:

Which to believe: official figures from the Polish government (i.e. 1,808) or unsourced numbers ("probably more than 50,000") from a website which anybody can edit? I wonder which might be more accurate.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_populations

Again, do we believe Wikipedia or the Polish government? Well, the figure from the Polish government is more up to date than the source quoted in wikipedia (2002 census vs "the early 90s"). But let's say that we do take the wikipedia source [countrystudies.us/poland/32.htm] as being accurate (unlikely, given that the author doesn't even know the correct name "Roma), it says " Estimates of the Gypsy population in Poland range from 15,000 to 50,000." Which means that the estimate given there could have been correct as of 1992 and by 2002 the Roma population had fallen to 12,900. But if your blessed source is 100% accurate, how do you explain the bit which says "Nevertheless, negative stereotypes remain strong in Polish society, and acts of violence and discrimination against this most visible minority are common in Poland. In 1991 a mob destroyed a wealthy Gypsy neighborhood in central Poland."?

... I could contiune ... but I don't have the time

You mean you could continue to provide rubbish sources of inaccurate figures? Please do that.
Salomon  2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #52
Which to believe: official figures from the Polish government (i.e. 1,808) or unsourced numbers ("probably more than 50,000") from a website which anybody can edit?

You are liar ... because in source you used before ... sometimes you cn find statments that there is propably 500 000 of people with such origin but only 5000 claimed to be non Polish citizen of Poland. ... You manipulate ...
Harry  
19 May 2009 /  #53
I'm quoting figures from the Polish government. Feel free to phone them and tell them they're full of sh*t.

Do please point out the part of the 2002 Polish census which states "that there is propably 500 000 of people with such origin". Either that or just admit you're lying yet again.
z_darius  14 | 3960  
19 May 2009 /  #54
I'm quoting figures from the Polish government. Feel free to phone them and tell them they're full of sh*t.

1. German stats you quote wikipedia but you consider the same source not good for Polish stats? Interesting.

2. You use 2002 numbers of minorities and compare them with 2005 incidents? Was there the same rate of increase of minorities in Poland and Germany in the 3 year period? There must have been some influx of minorities in both countries during that period. Without those precise numbers the data is iffy and only somewhat reliable. Add the margin of error and we loose the clarity altogether.

Your method shows a clear tendency to show what you want to show. This may me a reflection of reality but the proof is weak at best.

3.

In other words a non-white in Germany has a one in 192 chance of being the victim of racist crime.

That makes one racist crime for every 144 non-whites.

Two potential problems with these numbers:

- was the number of minorities in Germany subtracted from the general population stats in Germany? When you decrease the number of Germans by some 3 Mil (the number of minorities) then the stats will be different. After all the number of potential "criminals" will increase for Germany.

And then, the numbers show that a German is more likely to commit a racially motivated crime than a Pole. Using your numbers:

1 of out 5,397 Germans committed a racially motivated crime
1 out of 263,888 Poles committed a racially motivated crime

In other words a German is 48 times more likely to commit a racially motivated crime than a Pole.

The numbers clearly show that Poles are way ahead of Germans in racial tolerance.
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11710  
19 May 2009 /  #55
We will just send our 3 mill turks over and then we will see how the numbers change...:)
z_darius  14 | 3960  
19 May 2009 /  #57
We will just send our 3 mill turks over and then we will see how the numbers change...:)

Further to that; given that Poles have a very short experience with ethnic minorities on the scale comparable to that in Germany, I'd say Poles are doing great compared to the wonderful tolerance withing the borders of their western neighbor. Poles have had little time to learn to accept "the others" while Germans have had the chance to embrace the wonderful benefits of the multicultural society for some 60 years.
irishdeano  5 | 304  
19 May 2009 /  #59
I can see why they still have blame on germany. It happened not that long ago really an many people have lived though it who are still alive today To tell of what happened to there parents,to them an so on.

They had alot of trouble from the era of Hitler an stalian it was less than 70 years ago
Seanus  15 | 19666  
19 May 2009 /  #60
I see what you are saying but ask yourself this. Why haven't those Nazis at large been caught and brought to justice by now? Most of them are dead too.

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