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Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried?


1jola 14 | 1,879  
9 Feb 2009 /  #31
", they just had the party card because without it, life really sucked"

Exactly, life really sucked for 90% of the people. Yet, they didn't join. "Partyjny" in my circle was a badge of shame. Trust me, we had no friends who were in the Party; we just didn't associate with them. They were weak people who would turn to whichever the wind blew. They had no principles. They were the type who would snitch on their friends since the system required it. They were trash. I'll grant not all were nasty, but they were at the service of the enemy.

One thing you got right, though. Many people are finding out now that a close friend was writing reports on them. Watch "Trzech Kumpli" to see the reality of the totalitarian system.
BubbaWoo 33 | 3,510  
9 Feb 2009 /  #32
"Partyjny" in my circle was a badge of shame. Trust me, we had no friends who were in the Party; we just didn't associate with them. They were weak people who would turn to whichever the wind blew. They had no principles. They were the type who would snitch on their friends since the system required it. They were trash.

yes, but strangely enough isnt that exactly what someone who joined the party would say...?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
9 Feb 2009 /  #33
What would they have said? I'm sure they knew they were trash, but unpricipled men make excuses and basicaly just look out for their own interest. They are easily bought.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
10 Feb 2009 /  #34
Even Wałęsa? It is well documented he was a commie stooge and played his part well in the smooth transition from communist rule.

An interesting post...I am also reading between the lines here, as to who would put 'imbeciles in charge of Poland', and who 'controlled the real economy'...Certainly not Poles...And the point about Walesa is well taken.
plk123 8 | 4,149  
10 Feb 2009 /  #35
but unpricipled men make excuses and basicaly just look out for their own interest. They are easily bought.

you're being way one dimensional here. many people did because that was a selfless thing to do, actually. think about...

Even Wałęsa? It is well documented he was a commie stooge and played his part well in the smooth transition from communist rule.

thanks for making my point.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
10 Feb 2009 /  #36
A personal point. My late parents didn't join the Party although that would have made their life much easier. They were encouraged to do so, but not forced. Later, when we emigrated to the West, I would have never been able to obtain the necessary security clearances for my jobs had they been communists.

And you're right, there were many who joined just to play the game; no one had thought that communism would end. It's interesting that the ones who were part of the system did so much better in free Poland.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
10 Feb 2009 /  #37
basicaly just look out for their own interest.

we emigrated to the West,

With respect it is a very rare person indeed that doesn't look out for their self interest ;-)
1jola 14 | 1,879  
10 Feb 2009 /  #38
Escaping communism and joining it not exactly the same thing, wouldn't you say?
Harry  
10 Feb 2009 /  #39
Both are selling out your country for a better life.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
10 Feb 2009 /  #40
Emigrating is selling out your country? To whom?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
10 Feb 2009 /  #41
Escaping communism and joining it not exactly the same thing, wouldn't you say?

Forgive me but you were trying to make a point about Poles joining communism purely in self-interest and should be reviled for that and I am merely pointing out that emigrating to the 'west' was also an act of pure self-interest, so one could equally say this should also be reviled, wouldn't you say? Maybe one rule for one and one rule for another?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
10 Feb 2009 /  #42
Right then. Joining the enemy and fleeing from the enemy is equally detestable. Which one would you choose? Which choice would allow you to have a clear concience, provided you had a consience to start with?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
10 Feb 2009 /  #43
1jola: I repeat it was your assertion that Polish communists were to be somehow reviled for acting in their self-interest when you appear to have done exactly the same thing in your situation, by emigrating to the west. So how can you argue that there was no self-interest in your own personal situation and there was self-interest for Polish communists? Simply that.

Luckily for Poland the vast majority of Poles stayed to fight for their eventual freedom from communism and Poland is thankful for it I think you will agree?

But even the most reviled Poles such as Jozef Swiatlo played some part in this. most likely purely from his own self-interest, but Swiatlo's defection and later co-operation with CIA in Operation Splinter Factor did have some positive influence in softening the Polish communist regime in mid-1950's whatever the rights and wrongs of the man. The Polish section Radio Free Europe based in Munich was also intsrumental in the anti-communist propaganda war and included former cichociemni commentators and leading figures from the 'emigre' Polish government and armed forces personnel.
Harry  
10 Feb 2009 /  #44
Emigrating is selling out your country? To whom?

The people you left it to. Instead of fighting for your country you just fought for yourself. Very much like joining the communist party really.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
10 Feb 2009 /  #45
So how can you argue that there was no self-interest in your own personal situation and there was self-interest for Polish communists? Simply that.

I didn't join the enemy, I didn't snitch on people, I left for a better life without hurting anybody. If you don't understand what a communist regime was like, then do some research.

Luckily for Poland the vast majority of Poles stayed to fight for their eventual freedom from communism

Hate to burst your bubble, but most people didn't fight the system.

But even the most reviled Poles such as Jozef Swiatlo played some part in this. most likely purely from his own self-interest, but Swiatlo's defection and later co-operation with CIA in Operation Splinter Factor did have some positive influence in softening the Polish communist regime in mid-1950's

For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew. Using your thinking we should be grateful for von dem Bach since he testified in Nuremberg.

The only thing that softened the regime in the mid 1950s was the death of Stalin. Nothing else.

The Polish section Radio Free Europe based in Munich was also intsrumental in the anti-communist propaganda war and included former cichociemni commentators and leading figures from the 'emigre' Polish government and armed forces personnel.

You mean those selfish people who fled communism? The communists, who you seem to be so understanding about, had a special treatment for those patriots if they could get their filthy hands on.

Harry,
It has been pointed out many times that you are a blooming idiot. Why do you come back for more?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
10 Feb 2009 /  #46
Hate to burst your bubble, but most people didn't fight the system.

Its all about choices and self-interest. Nothing wrong with choosing a better life over helping one's country overthrow communism? But don't berate others for doing what you yourself have done.

For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew.

It is a fact he was a Polish Jew. Unless you are saying that one couldn't be Polish and a Jew?

The communists, who you seem to be so understanding about,

I have no sympathy for communism, not one bit, I have been a capitalist through and through all my life and enjoy fully the rewards of that system.

I know from elderly friends that were tortured by NKVD and UB who were former AK and NSZ soldiers what the communist regime was capable of.

The only thing that softened the regime in the mid 1950s was the death of Stalin. Nothing else.

Your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I left for a better life

Self-interest. I need say no more :-)
1jola 14 | 1,879  
10 Feb 2009 /  #47
Its all about choices and self-interest. Nothing wrong with choosing a better life over helping one's country overthrow communism? But don't berate others for doing what you yourself have done.

Chosing a better life in another country and joining the enemy is an equal act of self interest to you. It is not. The highest percentage of Party membership never even reached 8% of the population. Do you think the other 92% didn't want to better their lot? Yet, they didn't join. Also, people were not fighting to overthrow communism. They were fighting for better conditions, independent trade unions, etc. Communism collapsed.

I have every right to berate Soviet collaborators.

It is a fact he was a Polish Jew. Unless you are saying that one couldn't be Polish and a Jew?

When it's Jedwabne they are called Jews; when it's a criminal like Światło, he is a Pole, at least that's what you called him. There were and are plenty of fine Polish Jews though.

I have no sympathy for communism, not one bit

But you seem so understanding of those NKVD and UB beasts who tortured your friends. After all they made a choice to better their life just like Jola-the emigrant.

Let me give you a hypothetical choice and I count on an honest answer.

You are living in communist Poland. You can't even buy toilet paper.

a) you emigrate when you have a chance
b) you stay, but you don't join the party
c) you join the communist party and have all the toilet paper you want.
plk123 8 | 4,149  
11 Feb 2009 /  #48
Escaping communism and joining it not exactly the same thing, wouldn't you say?

very similar, for sure. you could be perceived as a traitor either way. i get it often enough.

Both are selling out your country for a better life.

see, there it is.

Emigrating is selling out your country? To whom?

not selling but turning your back. same freaking difference.

Right then. Joining the enemy and fleeing from the enemy is equally detestable. Which one would you choose? Which choice would allow you to have a clear concience, provided you had a consience to start with?

not that simple. you were presented with a chance to escape the chains. not everyone had that.
running away could definitely be perceived in more negative light then joining the commies.

Polish communists were to be somehow reviled for acting in their self-interest

hey now. most card holders weren't commies at all. ok?

The people you left it to. Instead of fighting for your country you just fought for yourself. Very much like joining the communist party really.

told ya so jola. :D

Hate to burst your bubble, but most people didn't fight the system.

sitting on one's hands is passive approval, no? no wonder noimmi cuts up on us all. lol

Harry,
It has been pointed out many times that you are a blooming idiot. Why do you come back for more?

huh? his point is definitely valid.

Its all about choices and self-interest. Nothing wrong with choosing a better life over helping one's country overthrow communism? But don't berate others for doing what you yourself have done.

right on.

Unless you are saying that one couldn't be Polish and a Jew?

yeah, many poles have very little understanding about racism and such.

Self-interest. I need say no more :-)

selling out. ;)

Chosing a better life in another country and joining the enemy is an equal act of self interest to you.It is not.

on basic lever, yes it is. lol.. self interest is self interest.

The highest percentage of Party membership never even reached 8% of the population. Do you think the other 92%

something's funky about those numbers. i'll let you know when i figure it out.

Let me give you a hypothetical choice and I count on an honest answer.

depends on the reality for me on the ground.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
11 Feb 2009 /  #49
Not once has anyone in my presence equated joining the communist party with emigration. Most likely because I don't know anyone who was in the Party.

1jola: The highest percentage of Party membership never even reached 8% of the population. Do you think the other 92%

something's funky about those numbers. i'll let you know when i figure it out.

You don't have to figure out anything; you just have to look up the statistics. I'll help you. The Party you were in was called PZPR.

One more point. There were many reasons Poles didn't emigrate. The most common was the inability to do so. The last, and I mean the last, was to stay and fight communism.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
11 Feb 2009 /  #50
But you seem so understanding of those NKVD and UB beasts who tortured your friends. After all they made a choice to better their life just like Jola-the emigrant.

No. One of my friends in Warsaw former cichociemni gen. Stefan 'Starba' Balłuk stayed in Poland despite his being tortured by NKVD and UB. He was given the chance of 'rescue' and escape by Britsish SOE to the west after the war but chose no to....toilet paper or no toilet paper. Same for my good friend Mr. Zbigniew Zielinski, former secretary-of-state for veteran affairs in Polish government he stayed. I could list many more more both in Poland and without.

Honestly, I can perfectly understand the mental turmoil suffered by choosing toilet paper in the west...it is so, so soft ;-)
Harry  
11 Feb 2009 /  #51
I left for a better life without hurting anybody.

So you mean you put your own interests before those of your country and your countrymen. Just as a person did by joining the communist party.

Hate to burst your bubble, but most people didn't fight the system.

How would you know? You ran away and thus don’t know what was happening in Poland.

For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew.

And of course Jews can’t be Poles, can they? Personally I would rather suspect that, as a good Communist, Swiatło didn’t practice any religion, but you feel free to stick to your bigotry

You mean those selfish people who fled communism?

No. Those were the people who had torture and/or death waiting for them if they came back to Poland. The people who fled communism and sold out their country in search of a better life for themselves were people like you.

Harry, It has been pointed out many times that you are a blooming idiot. Why do you come back for more?

Many reasons, including to point out that you’re a liar, a hypocrite and a bigot.

Also, people were not fighting to overthrow communism. They were fighting for better conditions, independent trade unions, etc. Communism collapsed.

Again, how would you know? You’d run off in search of soft toilet paper. Has it occurred to you that the main reason so few people involved with the resistance openly mentioned overthrowing Communism was that the reaction of the authorities would have been very similar to those in Budapest in ’56 and Prague in ’68?

I have every right to berate Soviet collaborators.

Yes, you didn’t collaborate: when the going got tough you just surrendered and changed sides. Are you actually Italian?

When it's Jedwabne they are called Jews; when it's a criminal like Światło, he is a Pole,

What happened to the people at Jedwabne happened to them because they were Jews. If they hadn’t been Jews, it wouldn’t have happened to them.

Światło got where he was because he was a Pole. If he hadn’t been a Pole, he wouldn’t have got where he was.

See the difference?

at least that's what you called him.

Liar. Sjam called him a “Polish-Jew”.

Let me give you a hypothetical choice and I count on an honest answer.
You are living in communist Poland. You can't even buy toilet paper.
a) you emigrate when you have a chance
b) you stay, but you don't join the party
c) you join the communist party and have all the toilet paper you want.

Alternatively, d) stay in Poland and fight for better toilet paper. Of course this option didn’t occur to you, probably because you took your arse to a more comfortable life at the first chance you got.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
11 Feb 2009 /  #52
sjam,

You misunderstood my post. I said you make excuses for communists who bettered their lot just like I did. Some people joined NKVD; some emigrated. It is obscene to equate the two as a means to improve ones life on the moral level.

LOL, I once met someone who had a collection of soft toilet paper sheets. How silly that must sound to young people now.

1jola: Also, people were not fighting to overthrow communism. They were fighting for better conditions, independent trade unions, etc. Communism collapsed.

Again, how would you know? You’d run off in search of soft toilet paper. Has it occurred to you that the main reason so few people involved with the resistance openly mentioned overthrowing Communism was that the reaction of the authorities would have been very similar to those in Budapest in ’56 and Prague in ’68?

I love when foreigners try to give me a lesson on Polish history.

1jola: at least that's what you called him.

Liar. Sjam called him a “Polish-Jew”.

You should read the posts carefully. Yelling, liar, liar, pants on fire will not help your acne problem.

But even the most reviled Poles such as Jozef Swiatlo

1jola: I left for a better life without hurting anybody.

So you mean you put your own interests before those of your country and your countrymen.

Welcome to Poland, foreigner. Will you stay long or will you go back to look after the interests of your own country, hero?

Światło got where he was because he was a Pole. If he hadn’t been a Pole, he wouldn’t have got where he was.

You really have no clue, do you?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
11 Feb 2009 /  #53
I said you make excuses for communists who bettered their lot just like I did.

It is you that has been claiming some moral high-ground by saying it was wrong of Poles to join communist party to better their situation but not for you chose to better your situation by emigating to the west...my point has been that you were doing exactly the same as those you condem that is acting purely out of self-interest to better ones personal situation. It is not me making any excuses or being judgemental for anyone wanting to better their situation. That is the only point I have been making.

BTW.

you join the communist party and have all the toilet paper you want.

What did the 92% of Poles that weren't in the communist party do for toilet paper for all those years? Communist newspapers I guess?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
11 Feb 2009 /  #54
People who didn't join have a right to be proud and millions of Polish emigrants who sent money back to the country and lobbied western governments to put pressure on the communists would object to the point you are making.

What did the 92% of Poles that weren't in the communist party do for toilet paper for all those years? Communist newspapers I guess?

I think "Trybuna Ludu"(People's Tribune) was preferred. Even when you got hold of some "good stuff" you had to be really macho to use it. :)
Harry  
11 Feb 2009 /  #55
I love when foreigners try to give me a lesson on Polish history.

You certainly need some.

1jola: when it's a criminal like Światło, he is a Pole, at least that's what you called him.

Harry:Liar. Sjam called him a “Polish-Jew”.

You should read the posts carefully. Yelling, liar, liar, pants on fire will not help your acne problem.

Lying won't help you look less of a prat

Welcome to Poland, foreigner. Will you stay long or will you go back to look after the interests of your own country, hero?

I've been here for 12 years, which legally makes me Polish any time I want to apply for a Polish passport. I think I'll stay here thanks.

Harry: Światło got where he was because he was a Pole. If he hadn’t been a Pole, he wouldn’t have got where he was.

You really have no clue, do you?

Are you saying that if he had been British/French/German/Chilean/Martian he would have got the position he held? Or did he get it because he was Polish?
Peter_H 3 | 47  
11 Feb 2009 /  #56
I don't want to get involved in this discussion about Col. Jozef Swiatlo, however, I spotted this excellent comment from Harry in reply to 1jola. I just thought it was worth highlighting. I don't think it can be boiled down any simpler than " What Happened to the people at Jedwabne happened to them because they were Jews". This is a simple fact.

1jola:
When it's Jedwabne they are called Jews; when it's a criminal like Światło, he is a Pole,

Harry: What happened to the people at Jedwabne happened to them because they were Jews. If they hadn’t been Jews, it wouldn’t have happened to them.
Światło got where he was because he was a Pole. If he hadn’t been a Pole, he wouldn’t have got where he was.
See the difference?

1jola 14 | 1,879  
11 Feb 2009 /  #57
Oh yeah, Peter, Harry is famous on this board for excellent comments.

He's called me a liar three times so far on this thread, and I'll give him a chance to show my lies or retract it.

Tapping my toes, Harry.

Must work now.
Harry  
11 Feb 2009 /  #58
He's called me a liar three times so far on this thread, and I'll give him a chance to show my lies or retract it.

I'll happily do that. The first comment was in the very first post on page one of this thread:

Jozef Swiatlo, a Polish-Jew

You then went on to say:

When it's Jedwabne they are called Jews; when it's a criminal like Światło, he is a Pole, at least that's what you called him.

As I have just shown, sjam called Swiatlo "a Polish-Jew". You then claimed that sjam called him a "Pole". Your statement is very clearly not true: it is a lie. Sjam called him a "Jew", to be more precise sjam called him a "Polish-Jew". So you are a liar.

You are also a coward: you ran away from your country and your countrymen in their time of need rather than stand together with them and fight for 'your' country.

You are also a hypocrite: you critise people who joined the Communist party purely for self-interest while you yourself left Poland purely for self-interest. You then go on to say that you are glad your parents didn't join the party because you wouldn't have been able to get the jobs you have had if they had joined the party. You aren't glad because they did the right thing for Poland: you're glad because of your own self-interest.

Oh yeah, Peter, Harry is famous on this board for excellent comments.

Do you wish to claim that what happened to the people at Jedwabne would still have happened to them if they were not Jewish Poles? Would they still have been murdered by their neighbours if they had been Catholic?

I don't expect you'll make any reply to that statement. After all, you haven't bothered to respond to the observation that Are you saying that Swiatlo got the position he held because he was Polish and that if he had been British/French/German/Chilean/Martian he would not have got the position he held. You claim that he wasn't a Pole but instead was a Jew but you completely fail to address what might have happened to him had he been a practising Jew. Do you really think that his superiors would have been happy for him to observe the Jewish Sabbath?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
11 Feb 2009 /  #59
Slightly off topic but related:
Anybody have information about General Anders intelligence networks (in addition to Pilecki's role in Poland's post war anti-communist network?) during early post-war period... English or Polish books or web sources?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
11 Feb 2009 /  #60
1jola: He's called me a liar three times so far on this thread, and I'll give him a chance to show my lies or retract it.

I'll happily do that. The first comment was in the very first post on page one of this thread:
sjam: Jozef Swiatlo, a Polish-Jew

You then went on to say:

1jola: When it's Jedwabne they are called Jews; when it's a criminal like Światło, he is a Pole, at least that's what you called him.

As I have just shown, sjam called Swiatlo "a Polish-Jew". You then claimed that sjam called him a "Pole". Your statement is very clearly not true: it is a lie.

What you have shown is your poor comprehension skills and your inability to focus. I will post it again for you, but it is getting tedious.

But even the most reviled Poles such as Jozef Swiatlo

You are also a coward: you ran away from your country and your countrymen in their time of need rather than stand together with them and fight for 'your' country.

How old are you? You are wasting my time.

I don't expect you'll make any reply to that statement.

I really shouldn't but I will for the benefit of others.

After all, you haven't bothered to respond to the observation that Are you saying that Swiatlo got the position he held because he was Polish and that if he had been British/French/German/Chilean/Martian he would not have got the position he held.

If you want to talk about Jedwabne, start a thread and flag me to it.

If you think Światło got his job in State Security because he was a Pole, consider this. A huge percentage of communist "security" at upper levels, were the Holocaust survivors-Jews. Being a Pole was a disadvantage at that time. They promptly got to the business of murdering AK, NSZ Polish soldiers. His boss was Fejgin-a Jew. Their boss was Berman-a Jew. Not Martians - Jews.

but you completely fail to address what might have happened to him had he been a practising Jew

What would have happend to him? Do tell.

Do you really think that his superiors would have been happy for him to observe the Jewish Sabbath?

No, they would have taken his dreidel away from him and schlapped him on the head.

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