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Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried?


plk123 8 | 4,149  
11 Feb 2009 /  #61
The Party you were

lol.. i was never in any party hon. :D :D

It is you that has been claiming some moral high-ground by saying it was wrong of Poles to join communist party to better their situation but not for you chose to better your situation by emigating to the west...my point has been that you were doing exactly the same as those you condem that is acting purely out of self-interest to better ones personal situation. It is not me making any excuses or being judgemental for anyone wanting to better their situation. That is the only point I have been making.

exactly but for some reason she's not seeing that. hmm

You are also a hypocrite: you critise people who joined the Communist party purely for self-interest while you yourself left Poland purely for self-interest. You then go on to say that you are glad your parents didn't join the party because you wouldn't have been able to get the jobs you have had if they had joined the party. You aren't glad because they did the right thing for Poland: you're glad because of your own self-interest.

lol burn, baby burn. :D
1jola 14 | 1,879  
11 Feb 2009 /  #62
1jola: The Party you were

lol.. i was never in any party hon. :D :D

But it would have been an interesting option for you, depending on the situation on the ground(your words), hon.

The rest of your post is Beavis&Butthead quality. Try again.
plk123 8 | 4,149  
11 Feb 2009 /  #63
Beavis&Butthead quality

you can ignore what they said, as you seem to be, but they make good points and i believe they are right on.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
11 Feb 2009 /  #64
Good points for marxists or foreigners who read about communism on wikipedia.
Peter_H 3 | 47  
12 Feb 2009 /  #65
Could you please provide a reliable source citing a "huge percentage" of Jews as active members of the security services in Poland during communism.

A huge percentage of communist "security" at upper levels, were the Holocaust survivors-Jews. Being a Pole was a disadvantage at that time. They promptly got to the business of murdering AK, NSZ Polish soldiers. His boss was Fejgin-a Jew. Their boss was Berman-a Jew. Not Martians - Jews.

PolskaMan 2 | 147  
12 Feb 2009 /  #66
People like i consider non-Polish
Harry  
12 Feb 2009 /  #67
Good points for marxists or foreigners who read about communism on wikipedia.

What was your experience of communism in Poland? Oh yes, it made you run away in search of comfortable toilet paper and a good job. Of course you could have had a good job and toilet paper by staying in Poland but you're glad you didn't do that because if you had, you wouldn't have your good job now.

You want to lecture us about being foreigners who know nothing about Poland? You abandoned Poland in search of a better life and because you didn't like the country enough to stay. We moved to Poland because we like the country.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
12 Feb 2009 /  #68
Could you please provide a reliable source citing a "huge percentage" of Jews as active members of the security services in Poland during communism.

Peter, do we know each other from AHF?

In the immediate post war era Jews constituted about 1% of the population. It is significant that they staffed the key positions in the Stalinist terror machine. The information I gave comes from IPN. Below are links to the documents which are in Polish, but if you want I can translate parts of them. Here is the relevant wiki entry which is based on primary sources:

W 1995 roku Żydowski Instytut Historyczny zorganizował prelekcję prof. Andrzeja Paczkowskiego, który przedstawił statystyki udziału osób narodowości żydowskiej w komunistycznych organach bezpieczeństwa w latach 1944-1956. Według nich na 449 osób pracujących w centrali resortu bezpieczeństwa na stanowiskach od naczelnika wydziału wzwyż było 131 Żydów, czyli 29%. Ponad 94% z nich deklarowało wcześniejszą przynależność do przedwojennych organizacji komunistycznych takich jak KPP. Według badań z 2005 roku Żydzi na kierowniczych stanowiskach w MBP stanowili 37.1% od naczelnika wydziału wzwyż, tj. 167 osób na 450 stanowisk.[2]. Relacje bezpośrednich świadków wydarzeń są jeszcze bardziej dramatyczne , m.in. według ambasadora ZSRR w Polsce w 1949 r. Wiktora Lebiediewa "w MBP poczynając od wiceministrów, poprzez dyrektorów departamentów, nie ma ani jednego Polaka, wszyscy są Żydami"[3]

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBydzi_a_komunizm

This comes from IPN Bulletin from November 2005.

ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/24/1364/nr_112005.html

The Bulletin is in PDF(see p.42)
OP sjam 2 | 541  
12 Feb 2009 /  #69
were the Holocaust survivors-Jews. Being a Pole was a disadvantage at that time. They promptly got to the business of murdering AK, NSZ Polish soldiers. His boss was Fejgin-a Jew. Their boss was Berman-a Jew. Not Martians - Jews.

No they were not Jews—they were POLISH Jews.

POLISH Catholics
POLISH Jews
POLISH Protestants
POLISH Greek Catholic
POLISH Atheists
POLISH whatever?

All are POLISH. Simply that.

I think you are using the term 'Jew' with anti-semitic undertones.... no wonder the whole world thinks Poles are rabidly anti-semitic. But would you even consider yourself a Pole these days as you chose to turn your back on your country for a better life in the 'west' ?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
12 Feb 2009 /  #70
LOL, Harry. Is this your attempt to make more excellent points?

You abandoned Poland in search of a better life and because you didn't like the country enough to stay.

Using your twisted logic you adandoned your country for a better life in Poland and must not like your country, which is ...?

We moved to Poland because we like the country.

Who is we?

And no, you moved to Poland because you couldn't get a job in your own.

So I wasn't a liar after all. Thanks for admitting you were wrong; it takes a man to do that.

POLISH Catholics
POLISH Jews
POLISH Protestants
POLISH Greek Catholic
POLISH Atheists
POLISH whatever?

All are POLISH. Simply that.

Have you seen "Opór"(Defiance)? Is that about Poles or Jews?

I think you are using the term 'Jew' with anti-semitic undertones....

When your arguments are weak, call someone an anti-semite. Pathetic, really.

no wonder the whole world thinks Poles are rabidly anti-semitic.

The whole wide world? I didn't know that??!!

But would you even consider yourself a Pole these days as you chose to turn your back on your country for a better life in the 'west' ?

Why don't you ask those "Poles" in Israel. LOL
ela_lawyer 5 | 64  
12 Feb 2009 /  #71
This is an excellent and honest source (the IPN) of the Polish-Jewish involvement with communism in post war Poland. I will further translate this section into English for our English readers here:

""The content of the MSW Informator and personnel files of 450 persons occupying managerial positions in the Ministry of Public Security, complemented by data drawn from other sources. [Source: 40] As the results show, in the period of 1944-1954 of the 450 top managers of the Ministry of Public Security (from the head of division up), 167 were of Jewish origin (37.1%). After the MBP (Ministry of Public Security) was dissolved and its place was taken by Kds.BP (Committee for Public Security) in 1954, that number dropped to 86 managerial positions (34.5%). In that period (1944-1956), among the 107 managers and deputy managers of the voivodeship offices of state security, there were 22 of Jewish origin (20.5%). After having included other high positions in the voivodeship offices of the UB/UdsBP (the heads of department and the deputy managers of department), the most persons of Jewish origin were located in the security apparatus of the voivodeships of: Szczecin (18.7%), Wrocław (18.7%), Katowice (14.6%), £ódź (14.2%), Warszawa (13.6%), [Source: 41] Gdańsk (12%), and Lublin (10.1%). In the remaining voivodeships that figure was about 7%, reaching the lowest level in Zielona Góra Voivedeship (3.5%) [Source 42]."

Source 40: M.in.: IPN 0397/397, Notki biograficzne niektórych emigrantów do Izraela, MSW, Biuro
Paszportów i Dowodów Osobistych, 1970.

Source 41: £ącznie WUBP i UBP dla m.st. Warszawy.

Source 42: Dane z przygotowanej do druku książki Aparat bezpieczeństwa w Polsce. Kadra kierownicza,
t. I (1944-1956), red. K. Szwagrzyk.
----------------------------

There are many more items in the IPN publication that should be read. Indeed, it is shocking read but unfortunately, all true. By the way, the real name of Józef Światło was Izaak Fleichfarb prior to changing it to sound more Polish-Catholic.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
12 Feb 2009 /  #72
This does not fit with the eternal victim lore.

Neither does this:

"It is a historical fact - but not widely known - that a organization called Zagiew (or The Torch) existed in the Warsaw getto. Zagiew were organized and sponsored by the Gestapo, and consisted of jews.[...]"

A long thread but worth the read.

forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=144090&start=0
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
12 Feb 2009 /  #73
emigrating to the 'west' was also an act of pure self-interest, so one could equally say this should also be reviled, wouldn't you say?

With respect, not really. I think the point trying to be made was that the revulsion stems from the action of joining the communist party rather than the intent behind it (self interest). Using your model, one could easily berate someone to whom self interest saw them leave a gang of murderers as opposed to joining a gang of murderers, again out of self interest. It's a bit like comparing apples with oranges, isn't it?

One could equally drop the argument down to the next level of silliness and say that the Poles who stayed were also acting out of self interest because they knew their self interests would be served eventually when Poland regained autonomy and they would be treated as heroes. That would just be silliness though. That would be Poles arguing against Poles because of who stayed and who didn't, and that would look stupid.

The concept of self interest is really a metaphysical one isn't it? Who's right, who's wrong....opinions.....judgments.

Did you tough it out in Poland or leave and then go back? I sense a veiled contempt to the Poles who left and didn't 'tough it out', so to speak. I apologise in advance if I have misconstrued your position and agenda.

I don't expect you'll make any reply to that statement.

That's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

I'm mortally offended old fruit - it's been weeks and still you haven't validly and meaningfully responded to any of the contentions I made in that other thread, even though I kept reminding you, asking you, almost begging you, and even put my points in capitals in case you were short sighted. Lo and behold, you pop up here giving grief to someone who couldn't be bothered answering your little quips - one could be tempted to say:

You are also a hypocrite

It's good to see that since that little drubbing I gave you on the meaning of racism (because you were misconceived in y our understanding of the term) you're not throwing it around so freely and now using 'bigot' instead.

Have you laid flowers on those graves of Polish soldiers in your neighborhood that I requested of you - sorry, I forgot - you pointed out that they were Polish-Jewish graves. It's a pity you can't find it in your heart to place flowers because of that.

PS: don't worry about going back tot he other thread and responding now. The thread is dead, and you would just look churlish.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
12 Feb 2009 /  #74
This does not fit with the eternal victim lore.

Pathetic weakness of arguement on my part maybe; but to me the implication of this statement of yours just illustrates your petty ingrained anti-semitism, and is used as ploy to deflect attention away from your own hypocricy.

Zagiew (or The Torch)

One can also mention 'the Thirteens' the Jewish Ghetto Police and the Polish 'Blueys' as being in that group of people as the 'The Torch' who acted purely out of self-interest, just as you did by emigrating to the 'west' to better your life (your words not mine) and for what you hypocritally berate Polish communists for doing to better their lives—this is the nub of the agruement between you and I, the rest is just your smoke screen to try to say your self-interest is somehow morally superior to Polish Communists...or The Torch or whomever; when it is not.

The concept of self interest is really a metaphysical one isn't it? Who's right, who's wrong....opinions.....judgments.

It is not me making judgements against anyone acting in their self-interest. If joining the Polish communist party to better one's life is an act of self-interest; then a Pole escaping to a better life in the free west and leaving his fellow Poles to get on with it is also acting purely in one's self-interest. If one position is reviled then so should the other; for me there is no moral superiority in the latter's position and that is the only point I am making.

In the case of Jozef Swiatlo, he was a Polish Jew, and he was a Polish communist who is alledged to have been responsible for many state sponsored murders or even murder through his own volition against AK members (but as he has never been tried or will be if he dead so we may never know for certain what he was guilty of) but it could be argued that Operation Splinter Factor and the part Col.Jozef Swiatlo played in this CIA operation, was the catalyst for reform of the communist system which is known as Polish October Revolution and was headed by Gomułka. Swiatlo's entirely false dennunciations (broadcast via Radio Free Europe) of high ranking communists as being CIA or 'western' agents led to thousands of arrests throughout Eastern Europe and execution of 1,000 communists who were entirely innocent of being CIA agents. So from some people's point of view this was only a good thing as no commusnists were innocent and were scum. Therefore maybe Jozef Swiatlo could be also regarded as a hero in some respects (all those arrests and exections of communist scum) even though he was a traitor to Polish communism.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
12 Feb 2009 /  #75
this statement of yours just illustrates your petty ingrained anti-semitism,

Calling me an anti-semite based on

1jola: This does not fit with the eternal victim lore.

is a blow below the belt. It is done often enough. I guess my previous statement

There were and are plenty of fine Polish Jews though.

went over your head.

One can also mention 'the Thirteens' the Jewish Ghetto Police and the Polish 'Blueys' as being in that group of people as the 'The Torch' who acted purely out of self-interest,

The Polish Blue Police were not volunteers; Żagiew and 13 were. Volunteers to work for the Gestapo against their fellow Jews. Again my hypocricy: I don't consider Gancwajch's bandits, (acting out of self interest) on the same plane as Jews who escaped the Ghetto (acting out of self interest) and hid among the Poles. Now, you would. Even further. You would berate the latter for abandoning their fellow Jews. Later on during the deportations, the Jews in the Ghetto killed many of the 13, but I have never read anything that Jews were killed by Jews for hiding on the aryan side. Apparently, they also differentiated between these two acts of self interest.

Must work now, or I will lose my cushy job;)
ela_lawyer 5 | 64  
12 Feb 2009 /  #76
...but to me the implication of this statement of yours just illustrates your petty ingrained anti-semitism

In all fairness, it's an obvious cheap-shot and all too common last resort form of 'defense' to wrongly accuse someone of being "anti-semitic" when no other valid counter argument can be produced. It seems these days, one cannot have any sort of intelligent debate or express their opinion about the Jewish people or Israel without being accused of being an 'anti-semite' in the end.
Harry  
12 Feb 2009 /  #77
The Polish Blue Police were not volunteers

Unlike the Narodowe Siły Zbrojne-Związek Jaszczurczy. Now there were some boys who knew how Poland should deal with Jews, eh?

By the way, would you consider the participants in the Kielce pogrom as volunteers?

Using your twisted logic you adandoned your country for a better life in Poland and must not like your country, which is ...?

On the contrary, with the exception of Kuwait, I've liked all the countries I've lived in, although the levels of racism in Australia are a little off-putting.

And no, you moved to Poland because you couldn't get a job in your own.

Sorry to disappoint but I actually moved to Poland to work with Peace Corps.

I'm mortally offended old fruit

Now what was I saying about racism and Australians? Here comes our very own race-baiting Plastic Pole, come to join in a spot of Jew-bashing (no doubt after a hard day of beating up Lebanese teenagers).

Why don't you start a thread just to get a rise out of Jews? And boast about how no true Aussie would ever pass up the chance to bait Jews? Oh, sorry, I forgot that you prefer to bait other races than Jews.

don't worry about going back tot he other thread and responding now. The thread is dead, and you would just look churlish.

You might want to go back and have a look yourself mate: every single one of your 'points' was answered. You didn't bother posting in the last three pages of the thread because you were getting your arse handed to you by people happy to point out that you are a racist bigot.

It's good to see that since that little drubbing I gave you on the meaning of racism (because you were misconceived in y our understanding of the term) you're not throwing it around so freely and now using 'bigot' instead.

I see that you've stopped taking your medication. Do your carers know about this?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
12 Feb 2009 /  #78
In all fairness, it's an obvious cheap-shot and all too common last resort form of 'defense' to wrongly accuse someone of being "anti-semitic" when no other valid counter argument can be produced. It seems these days, one cannot have any sort of intelligent debate or express their opinion about the Jewish people or Israel without being accused of being an 'anti-semite' in the end.

In fariness I think even you would agree there is a difference of intent by someone who makes the statement:

For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew.

When in fact Swiatło was a POLISH Jew. In this case the intent is derogatory in the sense the statement is making out that a POLISH Jew is not a Pole. The continued reference 'Jews' rather than POLISH Jews in the context Swiatło and POLISH communists just smacks of anti-semitism rather than adding to any objective or intelligent debate.

BTW, 37% of MBP cadre was Jewish.

This should be BTW, 37% of MBP cadre were POLISH Jews

or a by way of balance to the above BTW 63% of MBP cadre were not POLISH Jews
Harry  
12 Feb 2009 /  #79
The continued reference 'Jews' rather than POLISH Jews in the context Swiatło and POLISH communists just smacks of anti-semitism rather than adding to any objective or intelligent debate.

There's also the small point that very few (if any) of the people being discussed were practising/observant Jews. There is no evidence that any of them were personally religious. If they had been asked "Are you a Jew, a Pole, a Jewish Pole or a Polish Jew?" it's hard to imagine any of them replying another other than "A Pole" (or possibly "A Polish communist").
OP sjam 2 | 541  
12 Feb 2009 /  #80
newsweek.com
10 percent (or 2,800) of Poland's 28,000 Roman Catholic clergy were suborned by the SB in varying degrees of complicity.
Harry  
12 Feb 2009 /  #81
Of course they were actually Jews in disguise.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
12 Feb 2009 /  #82
Weren't most teachers in Poland, Communist Party members?
Peter_H 3 | 47  
12 Feb 2009 /  #83
To 1jola

Thanks for pointing out those figures. I hadn't come across IPN figures before, however, going through them, they seem more a series of separate figures from various voviods and regions rather than a coherent, definitive set of results.

I think it's important to point out that there are no real reliable figures documenting the ethnic make up of the UB and MBP in post-war communist Poland . The best source we have comes from Boleslaw Beirut dated November 25th 1945 that states a total number of 438 members of the MBP are of Jewish nationality out of 25,600. making for a percentage of 1.7. The number for top officials is larger, estimated at 13 %.Andzrej Paczkowski who attempted to reach an estimate on Jews in the security apparatus of communist Poland in his 2001 work Komunizm: Idelogia, system, ludzie pg196-198, drawn from the many notes and differing figures, claims no reliable figure can be given for the UB, as the regional variations are too great. For example; Lublin's UB office had 1000+ personal, yet less then 1% were Jews , whereas Lodz had around 50%. As far as I'm aware, there has been no updated study which has arrived at a more concrete figure or conclusion. Wikipedia is often an unreliable source. Were Jews overrepresented in Poland's post war security apparatus, probably yes, at least at the top levels. Did they make up a controlling or major bloc, almost certainly not.

There is still a widespread belief in Poland that Jews were a driving force in post war communist security apparatus. This is simply, and factually wrong as seen above. The UB and MBP were guilty of persecution of the AK, however this is an organisation, at least in the case of the MBP, that was 99%, or to quote your inaccurate figure of XXX, Polish. How, in this case, can Jews be shown to specially culpable? These were crimes committed by communists against Poles. It's important to remember that the UB and MBP also persecuted Jews. This, again, is a crime by communists, not Poles, against Jews.

In addition to the statistics presented above, it's important to remember that communism is, by its very nature, anti-semitic, as it is anti-catholic. Jews who joined the communist party, including the security services, were all but abandoning their religion. They were simply communists. This is backed up by testimony from former Jewish members of the UB and MBP in Poland. I can dig out a reference if need be. I think the one thing we can all agree on is that communism was stringently anti-religious, particularly prior to the the thawing of state control after the 1956 Poznan riots.

Jews are Jews because they are members of Judaism. That is a religion. If they renounce that religion, they are no longer Jews. Many Jews, especially in Warsaw had become Polanised, even Christianized, prior to World War Two, yet still found themselves in the ghetto thanks to Hitler's insistence that Judaism is something in the blood. It is not. No more than Catholicism is in the blood. I come from a Catholic country and both my parents are Catholic. I am not a Catholic.

Just because someone in the MBP had a Jewish mother, if they no longer claim to be Jewish, they are no longer Jewish. To claim the MBP was a pro Jewish organization is as factually incorrect as to call it a pro Catholic organization.

I'm certainly not trying to pick a fight here. I don't believe that you're an anti-semite. Like many Poles, you believe that Jews had a leading role in the post-war security apparatus because that's accepted wisdom. Hopefully, when you've had a cold, hard look at the figures above, you might change your mind. If you have other figures or independent information that casts doubt on the statistics I have given above, I would genuinely be interested in hearing it. I think the IPN figures are inconclusive. Either way, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the above.

do we know each other from AHF?

I don't think so, I'm not sure what AHF is.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
12 Feb 2009 /  #84
This is backed up by testimony from former Jewish members of the UB and MBP in Poland. I can dig out a reference if need be.

I would be very appreciative if you could post that reference. Many thanks ;-)
ela_lawyer 5 | 64  
12 Feb 2009 /  #85
I think it's important to point out that there are no real reliable figures documenting the ethnic make up of the UB and MBP in post-war communist Poland .

Excuse me? The report provided by the IPN is the best and most accurate report available today. How can you state those figures are unreliable? What is your basis for such an argument?

A part of that report clearly states:

"...in the period of 1944–1954 of the 450 top managers of the Ministry of Public Security (from the head of division up), 167 were of Jewish origin (37.1%). After the MBP (Ministry of Public Security) was dissolved and its place was taken by Kds.BP (Committee for Public Security) in 1954, that number dropped to 86 managerial positions (34.5%)."

It was quite easy for researchers to look up birth certifcates and marriage documents of each communist to see who they were. It doesn't take much to figure out one's religions or ethnicity. Polish Jewish and Poilsh Catholic surnames are very unique, and there is much more information to go on.

There is still a widespread belief in Poland that Jews were a driving force in post war communist security apparatus. This is simply, and factually wrong as seen above.

Polish Jews were a driving force, it's a fact and is not wrong.

I'm curious that you use the term "Jew" instead of Polish Jew. Why isn't sjam commenting on your incorrect usage and calling you an anti-semite?
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
13 Feb 2009 /  #86
If joining the Polish communist party to better one's life is an act of self-interest; then a Pole escaping to a better life in the free west and leaving his fellow Poles to get on with it is also acting purely in one's self-interest. If one position is reviled then so should the other; for me there is no moral superiority in the latter's position and that is the only point I am making.

Why should the other be reviled equally? Shouldn't there be a degree benchmark ascribed to the acts done in the name of self interest? What about self preservation? Isn't that a form of self interest writ large.

I'm sorry, but I just can't accept your contention that self interest is self interest and no matter what you do to serve it, the action is just the same whether you shot someone or ran away, or in our case, whether you left or stayed in Poland and joined the communist party.

It's not about moral superiority but, again, degree. If you feel that joining the commos or fleeing is one in the same in a notional context, then of course it would be, to such a person, a 'morally superior' argument to say that I fled Poland rather than join the commo's. To some, fleeing Poland was better than staying. It seems context and relativity flies out the window sometimes when Poland is discussed.

Now what was I saying about racism and Australians?

Remind us. It will show how you are a racist against Aboriginals and a fervent bigot against Aussies and Poles.

Again - I'm still waiting on your response to the points I raised against you regarding the hateful and misconceived allegations you made against Australia in the other thread(s).

Here comes our very own race-baiting Plastic Pole

If I'm a Plastic Pole then you must be a PVC Pom, no?

Back up your allegations. I deny ever having race baited anyone. You say I am a race baiter because you, unlike me, threaten violence and are bigot against Poles, Aussies or anyone who doesn't share your views on this forum, particularly women, and you think you're throwing up a smoke screen by doing so.

You, unlike me, are anti-semitic because you refuse to place flowers at a grave because as you allege, the graves belong to Polish Jews.

Show your respect and deference to your host country by placing flowers and lighting a candle on the graves of BOTH Poles, Polish Jews and indeed any other nationality who perished fighting for the country and town you now call home.

Honour the memory of my ancestors and the ancestors of many other members of this forum who fell fighting in the town in which you sit in and see fit to slander and denigrate.

Why don't you start a thread just to get a rise out of Jews?

Because I am not anti semitic nor do I race bait. Whhy don't you start a thread and get a rise out the Poles ... oops ... you already have. That's because you are a Polonophobe.

Why don't you post some comments and get a rise out of Poles ... oops .. you already have. That's because you are a Polonophobe.

Why don't you answer any of my more weighty contentions but choose to respond to idle comments or matters that are easily responded to? Because you have nothing.

Why do you continue to decieve the forum with your half truths and failure to provide the entire spectrum of information when you post? Because you don't let the whole story get in the way of a chance to denigrate the Poles.

Oh, sorry, I forgot that you prefer to bait other races than Jews.

Which other races? I thought you said I was race baiting Jews? Can you at least stick to your story for consistency.

You might want to go back and have a look yourself mate:

I have and there was nothing of any merit except your further lies and foul deceits regarding the Peking Plan ad nauseum.

every single one of your 'points' was answered.

Liar.

I see that you've stopped taking your medication. Do your carers know about this?

Ouch! That's scathing. I haven't heard such a rebuke since primary school.
Peter_H 3 | 47  
13 Feb 2009 /  #87
Sjam, I will post a reference in the next day; i'm currently away from my office, so I'm unable to reach the literature sooner. It's, however, important to say that although there are many testimonies, they are, by their very nature, opinionated.

I understand the argument that the UB were naturally anti-religious by weight of knowledge. That said, the number of former Jewish staff who claim that they left behind their religion far outweighs that say it drove them. The latter being zero.

Nevertheless, i'll dig out those references.

Ela,

I cannot be more frank in saying that the only single reliable source in quoting Jewish numbers in post-war Security Apparatus in Poland is Bierut's note.The IPN took a number of disparate figures and reached it's own conclusion. When it comes to history, the only reliable source we have is a primary one. The IPN is not a primary source, it is derogatory. I think, if you read the IPN numbers more carefully, they are in no way conclusive. Please do read them very closely.

And, if we leave that aside, could you please explain your quoted percentage, that 37% of the Upper Service of the Ministry of Public Security were Jewish, and your comment

Polish Jews were a driving force, it's a fact and is not wrong.

. How can an organisation which was 63 % Polish and 37% Jewish in its make up, according to your figures, have been driven by Jews?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
13 Feb 2009 /  #88
I'm curious that you use the term "Jew" instead of Polish Jew. Why isn't sjam commenting on your incorrect usage and calling you an anti-semite?

Because the intent of Peter_H is not the same as 1jola. The former is referring to religious belief whereas the latter is using the term Jew in derogatory sense to suggest a Polish Jew cannot be a Pole because he is a Jew.

1jola:
For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew.

sjam:
When in fact Swiatło was a POLISH Jew. In this case the intent is derogatory in the sense the statement is making out that a POLISH Jew is not a Pole. The continued reference 'Jews' rather than POLISH Jews in the context Swiatło and POLISH communists just smacks of anti-semitism rather than adding to any objective or intelligent debate.

1jola:
BTW, 37% of MBP cadre was Jewish.

sjam:
This should be BTW, 37% of MBP cadre were POLISH Jews
or a by way of balance to the above BTW 63% of MBP cadre were not POLISH Jews

it's an obvious cheap-shot and all too common last resort form of 'defense' to wrongly accuse someone of being "anti-semitic" when no other valid counter argument can be produced.

This comment you make is also used frequently by antisemites to try mask an antisemitic stance.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
13 Feb 2009 /  #89
Peter,

It refreshing to talk to someone who doesn't see a Jew hater behind every rock.

I'm not sure why you say the statistics come from wiki when they actually come from historians at IPN. The figure of 1.7% you gave is roughly correct, and would raise no eyebrows since Jews made up around 1% of the population. At the decision making level they were hugely overrespresented. 167 of 450 positions is significant. When Jews are overrepresented in, say medicine, it is a cause for celebration, in this case it should be a source of shame and simply aknowledged. Poles are not proud of the executioners among us, and should be brought to justice. Notice that Helena Wolińska, a Stalinist procecutor, also cried anti-semitism when Poland tried to get her extradited from England.

Jews are Jews because they are members of Judaism. That is a religion. If they renounce that religion, they are no longer Jews.

When it's a famous non-religious Jewish musician, politician, or scientist, he is still a Jew; when it's criminal - he is not. That is called a double standard.

Like many Poles, you believe that Jews had a leading role in the post-war security apparatus because that's accepted wisdom. Hopefully, when you've had a cold, hard look at the figures above, you might change your mind.

Officer corps in any army also make a small percentage of the overall numbers, yet they make decisions - they play the leading role.
Harry  
13 Feb 2009 /  #90
The IPN is not a primary source, it is derogatory.

It also has rather interesting habits. For example it has lots to say about Helena Wolińska-Brus (who happens to be of Jewish decent) but has bugger all to say about the other people involved in the Fieldorf case. Not a peep about Maria Gurowska (the judge who passed the death sentence and was allowed to live out her days in post-communist Poland by using the cunning trick of not going to the court proceedings against her), who happens to be from Catholic descent….

The usual tired lies that Dan tries to make true through the power of repetition. Plus the ever-present dash of causal racist abuse.

Dear Boy,
While your obsession with me is very flattering, you seem to be posting vastly more about me than about the topic hereof. This will probably annoy the posters who expect the topic of discussion to be the topic of the thread. Please start a special thread for your lies about me, you can include your racism and racist abuse in that thread. I’ll happily point out all your lies and racism: in that thread. Alternatively, use the private message function for private messages.

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