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Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried?


Seanus 15 | 19,706  
14 Feb 2009 /  #121
We witnessed the same in Britain. Labour were supposed to be a left-wing party. Look at what Tony Blair did there. He shifted across and slapped a new label on, New Labour.

I studied Critical Legal Studies more (CLS) which looks at the synallagmatic/symbiotic nature of law and politics. You know more than I do on this issue in Polish politics.

Ultra-conservative is code for virtuous and overly righteous. I'm not too quick to call them devout Catholics, more just moralistic and overly paternal at times.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
15 Feb 2009 /  #122
sjam:
I am so glad you are not my secretary because you have no answers to even the simplest question of your opinion on how many perpetrators in the Pilecki state murder (listed by the IPN as being involved) you think are Polish Jews?

I have no idea. You seem obssessed with Jews, though.

It is your assertion that all of those involved in state murder of Fieldorf were 'Jews' and that the polish security apparatus was controlled by Polish Jews yet 63% of MBP cadre were not Polish Jews. You have no answers as to why those accused of Feildorf's murder have never been brought to trial though they live(d) openly in Poland whereas years were spent trying to extradite just one person from UK. You imply that because they were 'Jews' (your term not mine) they were not touched? So what about those non-Jewish Poles that were invoved in Fieldorf case - you imply that there weren't any! Which stretches credibilty to the nth degree, even for soemone as thick as me.

Based on your assertion that the communist security services were controlled by Polish Jews and claimed knowledge that all perpetartors in the Fieldorf case were Polish Jews; I asked you how many Polish Jews you think were implicated in the other widely known state murder; that of Pilecki. Given that the IPN list the names of those they think were responsible I would have thought you might have an opinion can't you tell from their names who is a Polish Jew or not? Or do you think they have all, like Jozef Swiatlo, changed their names to avoid being recognised as Polish Jews?

I am not obsessed with 'Jews' Polish or otherwise but when some writes

1jola:
For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew.

[quote=1jola]
the worst of the Holocaust "survivors" we had. Oh, BTW, 37% of MBP cadre was Jewish.

then these crass statements deserves response.

I do enjoy warm milk ;-)

Sorry but you have little idea either about political science or Polish politics.

I don't profess to have any interest in either political science or politics. Hence my question:

Isn't PiS center-rightist conservative party

Now if you are saying that PiS party actually a left-wing party so they would not want to prosecute any former communists for the state murders of Fieldorf and Pilecki even though they are well known and some still living in Poland that would be understandable. But which party was in government during the years of extradition proceedings against Helena Wolińska? Presumably if PiS is left-wing it does not support lustration and supports the so-called 'thick line'?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
15 Feb 2009 /  #123
Oh, dear. Just as I thought the warm milk would help.

You have no answers as to why those accused of Feildorf's murder have never been brought to trial though they live(d) openly in Poland whereas years were spent trying to extradite just one person from UK.

You are not listening. They are reluctant to prosecute anyone. The question who is Jewish has nothing to do with it. There hasn't been a government yet that is willing to bring justice to communist crimes.

You imply that because they were 'Jews' (your term not mine) they were not touched?

This you'll have to show me.

So what about those non-Jewish Poles that were invoved in Fieldorf case - you imply that there weren't any! Which stretches credibilty to the nth degree, even for soemone as thick as me.

Stop abusing yourself. List the names and we will have a look.

sjam: 1jola:
For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew.

1jola: [quote=1jola]
the worst of the Holocaust "survivors" we had. Oh, BTW, 37% of MBP cadre was Jewish.

then these crass statements deserves response.

These are not crass statements, they are facts. But wait, let's just call them Poles, what the heck. Here are some other famous Poles:

Menachem Begin - the sixth PM of Israel was Polish.

In fact, the first PM of Isreal was Polish - David ben Gurion.

Another Prime Minister of Isreal - Yitzak Rabin- a Polak.

The President and PM of Israel - Shimon Peres - Polish.

My favorite Polak is Abe Foxman of the ADL, a nice boy from Baranowicz, fighting anti-polonism. Did you know that "Foxman was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as Henryk Stanislas Kurpi, and raised as a Catholic..."

I hope you have a sense of humor.

But which party was in government during the years of extradition proceedings against Helena Wolińska?

SLD-the communists, for the most part, with the elected communist president mgr.Kwaśniewski. Now, I don't think that Kwas was prosecuting poor Wolińska because she was Jewish. Ater all

"[Conversation with Aleksander Kwaśniewski, Chairman of the European Council for Tolerance]

Media have informed about the establishment by the European Jewish Congress of the European Council for Tolerance, which you are heading. What will the Council deal with?

Under the new and improved communistst the extradition was sought. Why they chose to ignore others, I don't know. I can only suspect that they all worked toghether at one point or another, but even if not, they would like to let the dogs lie.

I hope you are not saying in all this that she deserved to be left alone.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
15 Feb 2009 /  #124
But wait, let's just call them Poles, what the heck. Here are some other famous Poles

Yes at last! Lets call them Polish if Poland is where they were born.

Around 120,000 Poles stayed in UK after WWII and I would consider them Polish. Some of them reaching high positions in British establishment.

SLD-the communists, for the most part,

Under the new and improved communistst the extradition was sought. Why they chose to ignore others, I don't know. I can only suspect that they all worked toghether at one point or another,

This must be the other part?

Would these be the Polish Jews you said were in control of the communist state... they all worked together now old and new ... that would be it... another joke ;-)

I hope you are not saying in all this that she deserved to be left alone.

No.
I am saying all involved should be have been brought to trial. I am also questioning why only Helena Wolińska's extradition seems to have been so vigorously pursued yet no else seems to have been? How many extradition warrants were made to Israel? Why were there no trials in absentia this has happened in other serious crime cases around the world and could have happened to Helena Wolińska and the others you say escaped justice in Israel? At least this would have been justice of sorts.

And where are the prosecutions of those listed by IPN as being involved in Pilecki's state murder? Obviously the majority in Poland could be that bothered about it or it would have happened.

BTW. That warm milk did work... my bones feel stronger and it is so relaxing after a hard days entertainment reading your posts :-)))
1jola 14 | 1,879  
15 Feb 2009 /  #125
1jola: But wait, let's just call them Poles, what the heck. Here are some other famous Poles

Yes at last! Lets call them Polish if Poland is where they were born.

It's not important what we call them; it's important what they call themselves. Do you think Abe Foxman calls himself a Catholic Pole?[big smile]

Would these be the Polish Jews you said were in control of the communist state

I believe I said the Soviets were.

I am saying all involved should be have been brought to trial.

And I am saying what?

I am also questioning why only Helena Wolińska's extradition seems to have been so vigorously pursued yet no else seems to have been?

Maybe you have an idea why and would like to share it. I'm listening.

How many extradition warrants were made to Israel?

Have you ever heard of anyone extradited from Israel?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
15 Feb 2009 /  #126
sjam:
Would these be the Polish Jews you said were in control of the communist state

I believe I said the Soviets were.

Your short term memory loss I guess :-))

Peter_H:
Like many Poles, you believe that Jews had a leading role in the post-war security apparatus because that's accepted wisdom. Hopefully, when you've had a cold, hard look at the figures above, you might change your mind.

Officer corps in any army also make a small percentage of the overall numbers, yet they make decisions - they play the leading role.

1jola 14 | 1,879  
15 Feb 2009 /  #127
I'm still listening for your ideas on the subject. You don't deserve a biscuit yet.
Harry  
16 Feb 2009 /  #128
Harry, it turns out they are all Jewish.

"In a more complicated case, Poland’s authorities have been unable to prosecute several persons implicated in the judicial murder on trump-up charges of killing Jews, Communists, and Soviet POWs of General August Emil Fieldorf (“Nil”) of the Home Army. The persons involved in the sordid affair include Kazimierz Górski, Alicja Graff, and Witold Gatner, who reside in Poland, and Stefan Michnik and Fajga Mindla Danielak aka Helena Wolińska, who live abroad. A few participants in the murder lived unmolested until their recent deaths in independent Poland after 1989 (Igor Andrejew and Maria Zand-Górowska) or abroad (Beniami n Wajsblech, Emil Mertz, and Gustaw Auscaler).[Israel]

You claim that they are all Jewish but your quote says nothing about them all being Jewish. It just says that the ones with the Jewish sounding names live/lived abroad and the ones with the Catholic sounding names live/lived in Poland.

Now, Harry's argument has now turned on him. No wonder he is not here to defend his nonsense.

No, I just have this thing called a life, so I don’t post here seven days a week. You should try getting one.

sjam: 1jola: But wait, let's just call them Poles, what the heck. Here are some other famous Poles

Yes at last! Lets call them Polish if Poland is where they were born.

It's not important what we call them; it's important what they call themselves.

We should call people what they call themselves? Good idea. Now we have agreed that no Polish Jews were involved with the Party or the security services post-WWII. Religion was not compatible with Stalinism so no member of the Party or the security services would have called themselves ‘religious’. Not unless they were desperate to get caught up in the next purge anyway.

Perhaps you would like to rethink your argument.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
16 Feb 2009 /  #129
Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: The Dialectics of Pain: The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955. Glaukopis, vol. 2/3 (2004-2005).

In the case of torture of General Franciszek Skibiński of the Free Polish Armed Forces in the West, the authorities were “unable” to find a suspect, Colonel Władysław Kochan, for several months, even though he resides in a building literarily next door to the court house and his address is listed. Kochan refuses to testify against the main accused in the case, Colonel Henryk O., and, instead, blames the practice of torture on his own Soviet advisor, Colonel Anton Skulbashevskii, who left Poland for the USSR in 1956. See Jan Ordyński, “Naciskał aż przesłuchiwany chciał umżeć,” Rzeczpospolita, 15 October 2003; Jan Ordyński, “Wiedział, że bito więźniów,” Rzeczpospolita, 12 February 2004.

From the same source as the above and 1jola's quote from that same source:

1jola:
Harry, it turns out they are all Jewish.

"In a more complicated case, Poland’s authorities have been unable to prosecute several persons implicated in the judicial murder on trump-up charges of killing Jews, Communists, and Soviet POWs of General August Emil Fieldorf (“Nil”) of the Home Army. The persons involved in the sordid affair include Kazimierz Górski, Alicja Graff, and Witold Gatner, who reside in Poland, and Stefan Michnik and Fajga Mindla Danielak aka Helena Wolińska, who live abroad. A few participants in the murder lived unmolested until their recent deaths in independent Poland after 1989 (Igor Andrejew and Maria Zand-Górowska) or abroad (Beniami n Wajsblech, Emil Mertz, and Gustaw Auscaler).[Israel]

We can read:

As for the perpetrators, although the Soviets led the way,55 they found
many eager Polish collaborators. Although no thorough search has been
undertaken in the secret police personal files nationwide, the evidence
accumulated here suggests that most of the functionaries of the Communist
terror apparatus were ethnic Poles of lower class origin. The witnesses
mention but a few Jewish Communist perpetrators.

Perhaps you would like to rethink your argument.

No thinking required—seems it's all in 1jola's selective copy and pasting :-)

Now where's that warm milk and biscuits... :-)))
1jola 14 | 1,879  
16 Feb 2009 /  #130
We can read:No thinking required-seems it's all in 1jola's selective copy and pasting :-)

I'm out milk, but here is a biscuit,

Since you are quoting from the same article I quoted from, you know that I have read the article. Here is the article again:

As for the perpetrators, although the Soviets led the way,[55] they found many eager Polish collaborators. Although no thorough search has been undertaken in the secret police personal files nationwide, the evidence accumulated here suggests that most of the functionaries of the Communist terror apparatus were ethnic Poles of lower class origin. The witnesses mention but a few Jewish Communist perpetrators.[56]

The little 56 means a note. You have to scroll down to read it. It says:

[56] This seems to have been the case especially in the countryside but to a lesser extent on the central command level. See Chapter Six, "The Local Elite under Soviet Rule, 1944-1947," and Chapter Eight, "Ethnic Minorities under Soviet Occupation, 1944-1947," in Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Between Nazis and Soviets: A Case Study of Occupation Politics in Poland, 1939-1947 (Lanham, MD: Lexington Books, 2003)

From the same author:

In our sample below we have documented more than 500 cases of torture. Almost all victims described below were ethnic Poles and Catholics, save for a single Jewish man. One hundred and fifty four victims are identified by name, including 21 women. Most of the victims of torture, except for some of the youngest ones, were involved in both the anti-Nazi and anti-Communist struggle from 1939.

Besides, this deals with interogation. This doesn't:

As Professor Krystyna Kersten has noted perceptively, the independentist insurgents and the parliamentary opposition were the chief "reactionaries." Significantly, "reactionary" was synonymous with "bandit," "traitor," "fascist," "Hitlerite," "anti-Semite," and "Jew-killer." Whoever killed Jews was not just a traitor, but also "an agent of Hitler." Anybody who opposed the Communists was also a potential "Jew-killer," or at least could be accused of such terrible anti-Semitic deeds, and, hence, branded "a Nazi collaborator."

Now, remember that notes are important?

46] This propaganda ploy therefore required that the Communists effusively play the role of the sole protectors of the Jewish people. On April 17, 1949, the head of the proxy regime in Warsaw, Bolesław Bierut, cynically informed a visiting Jewish-American delegation that "killing a Jew is ten times more of a crime than ordinary killing" and vowed to punish severely anyone responsible for crimes against the Jews. See Joseph Tenenbaum, In Search of A Lost People: The Old and the New Poland (New York: The Beechhurst Press, 1948), 227.

Now, what were we talking about?

We should call people what they call themselves? Good idea. Now we have agreed that no Polish Jews were involved with the Party or the security services post-WWII. Religion was not compatible with Stalinism...

You seem to be under the impression that all Jews must be religious; they seize to be Jewish if they don't believe in God. Is that right, genius? And we haven't agreed on anything yet, but your logic is lacking.
Harry  
16 Feb 2009 /  #131
You seem to be under the impression that all Jews must be religious; they seize to be Jewish if they don't believe in God. Is that right, genius?

I was replying to your statement that we should call people what they call themselves. Evidence would suggest that no communist would call themselves religious.

Or do you have any proof that any of the people working for the Polish state in the 1940s, 1950s or 1960s described themselves as 'Jewish'?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
16 Feb 2009 /  #132
[56] This seems to have been the case especially in the countryside but to a lesser extent on the central command level

I could have pasted in the note as you have done but it doesn't support to your assertion that Polish Jews had control of communist security apparatus. Footnote 56 doesn't contradict the author's earlier research statement that:

' they found many eager Polish collaborators. Although no thorough search has been undertaken in the secret police personal files nationwide, the evidence accumulated here suggests that most of the functionaries of the Communist terror apparatus were ethnic Poles of lower class origin.

only to a lesser extent on the central command level?

they found many eager Polish collaborators.

Maybe this is the bit you have difficultly swallowing... my warm milk drink might in fact be of more help to you as I wouldn't like you to choke on the facts!

Almost all victims described below were ethnic Poles and Catholics, save for a single Jewish man.

And your point is? That there as there is only one 'Jewish man' mentioned in this research the perpetrators against these victims must have been Polish Jews and not all those 'eager Polish collaborators'.

You might need more of my warm milk to swallow that.

For those that might be interested in this very well researched and balanced document:
projectinposterum.org/docs/chodakiewicz1.htm - Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: The Dialectics of Pain: The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
16 Feb 2009 /  #133
Or do you have any proof that any of the people working for the Polish state in the 1940s, 1950s or 1960s described themselves as 'Jewish'?

It's a fact. Under Narodowość some put down Żydowska.

Evidence would suggest that no communist would call themselves religious.

You are observant and perceptive, in your own way.
Harry  
16 Feb 2009 /  #134
It's a fact. Under Narodowość some put down Żydowska.

No, I said do you have any proof that any of the people working for the Polish state in the 1940s, 1950s or 1960s described themselves as 'Jewish'.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
16 Feb 2009 /  #135
I could have pasted in the note as you have done

...but because the explanation didn't suit your 'argument', you didn't.

your assertion that Polish Jews had control of communist security apparatus

So what is your assertion? They were persecuted because they were Jews?

1jola: Almost all victims described below were ethnic Poles and Catholics, save for a single Jewish man.

And your point is?

Given your recent liberty with quotes, you should be more careful. I didn't say that, a historian said it. It was a miracle that all 500 were not Jewish.

they found many eager Polish collaborators.

Maybe this is the bit you have difficultly swallowing...

Why would I have difficulty?
The only difficulty I have is with those hidering their prosecution. It sounds like it is you who would look in their pants. All should be punished, or should the Jewish ones not be punished because they are Holocaust survivors?
Harry  
16 Feb 2009 /  #136
Given your recent liberty with quotes, you should be more careful. I didn't say that, a historian said it. It was a miracle that all 500 were not Jewish.

Yes a historian did say it. And then you portrayed it as a statement that only Jewish Poles were torturers.....
OP sjam 2 | 541  
16 Feb 2009 /  #137
Given your recent liberty with quotes, you should be more careful. I didn't say that, a historian said it. It was a miracle that all 500 were not Jewish.

The historian didn't embolden the text below you did so I asked what point you were trying to make by this editing?

In our sample below we have documented more than 500 cases of torture.Almost all victims described below were ethnic Poles and Catholics, save for a single Jewish man.

So I repeat:

And your point for emboldening the text was? That as there is only one 'Jewish man' mentioned in this research the perpetrators against these victims must have been Polish Jews and not all those 'eager Polish collaborators'. This must be so as you have stated more than onec that the communist security apparatus was contolled by Jews, not by Poles. Not so given that 67% of MBP were these 'eager Polish collaborators'.

That there was only one Jewish person out of 500 is not actually that surprising or miraculous as many did Polish Jews did not join AK and NSZ etc., as they believed them to be virulently anti-semitic (must have been covered in past threads?) These 'prisoners' were mainly former AK, NSZ, WiN and successor organisations were they not?

I don't understand the reference to looking in their pants? This is obviously way too clever for me and over my head.

And then you portrayed it as a statement that only Jewish Poles were torturers.....

Surely not? What a scurrilous suggestion!

I don't understand why 1jola has such a downer on communists' Polish Jews or otherwise afterall he/she/or it escaped to the free west... and now they (communists) have all gone is free to go back and enjoy the freedom so hard won by his fellow countrymen... what a joker... almost spilt my warm milk laughing so much ;-))
1jola 14 | 1,879  
17 Feb 2009 /  #138
1jola: Given your recent liberty with quotes, you should be more careful. I didn't say that, a historian said it. It was a miracle that all 500 were not Jewish.

Yes a historian did say it. And then you portrayed it as a statement that only Jewish Poles were torturers.....

You are truly dense, sir.

So I repeat:

And your point for emboldening the text was?

So you could draw some conclusions.

That there was only one Jewish person out of 500 is not actually that surprising or miraculous as many did Polish Jews did not join AK and NSZ etc., as they believed them to be virulently anti-semitic

Were they? There were Jews even at the command level. What formations did the Jews join then? NKVD?

These 'prisoners' were mainly former AK, NSZ, WiN and successor organisations were they not?

Yes, they were. They fought for independent Poland. In your twisted mind they were anti-semitic. They were anti-communist.

I don't understand why 1jola has such a downer on communists' Polish Jews

I hate communists, full stop.

... and now they (communists) have all gone

Where have they all gone? Cuba?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
17 Feb 2009 /  #139
So you could draw some conclusions.

I did. But you didn't like the conclusion I reached so you resorted to derision, to which I have responded. Leaving this aside, your assertion that Polish Jews controlled the communist security apparatus (and therefore by implication were responsible for all the tortures of anti-communist restistance fighter) is not borne out by anything you have presented so far.

as they believed them to be virulently anti-semitic

I personally don't believe this is the complete truth,but many Polish Jews did. There were Polish Jews in the AK but most (not all) hid their identity as they were afraid of being victimised (and sometimes murdered) by anti-semitic factions within the in AK. This is a fact! If you at the very least have seen the documentary Polish Jews in the Warsaw Uprising (1944) you will hear from those Polish Jews who participated in the 1944 Rising in the AK. There is enough information 'out there' that supports the quoted statement; that Polish Jews believed the the AK to be virulently anti-semitic.

What formations did the Jews join then? NKVD?

Those few Polish Jews that were able to escape ghettos and deportations into the forest formed their own partisan groups; joined Soviet groups; joined Polish communist groups (to join all those 'eager Polish communist collaborators') -- all well known.

sjam:
... and now they (communists) have all gone

Where have they all gone? Cuba?

Maybe they escaped to the free west for a better life as well once Poland regained its independence from Russia.

Or maybe you are saying Poland isn't a free country (in the western sense) now... and therefore you are still sheltering in the free west from the present communist oppressors of Poland. If so poor thing, to be an exile without a country, you must be wondering if it ever be safe to live there? And poor Poles still having to suffer communist oppression when I thought it was all over? Can Poles not just vote the communists away? Will they never be free? What can the world do to help?

BTW. I repeat; I don't understand the reference to looking in their pants? This is obviously way too clever for me and over my head. Please explain?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
17 Feb 2009 /  #140
BTW. I repeat; I don't understand the reference to looking in their pants? This is obviously way too clever for me and over my head. Please explain?

Jews were circumcised, gentiles were not.

I'll get back to you.

1jola: as they believed them to be virulently anti-semitic

Stop attributing your own statements to me.
Harry  
17 Feb 2009 /  #141
Yes, they were. They fought for independent Poland. In your twisted mind they were anti-semitic. They were anti-communist.

This would be the same NSZ which, amongst other things, murdered Leon Feldhendler, leader of the Sobibor rebellion, for being Jewish? The same NSZ which carried out massacres of Jews during the closing days of the war? The same NSZ that carried out ethnic cleansing against Belorussians in the Bielsko Podlaska region in January 1946?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
17 Feb 2009 /  #142
sjam:
BTW. I repeat; I don't understand the reference to looking in their pants? This is obviously way too clever for me and over my head. Please explain?

Jews were circumcised, gentiles were not.

Oh I see now...

How telling that you should use that particular metaphor based on something a Nazi would use as proof that a circumscised man was Jewish, if he didn't look Jewish. Still don't understand why I should be looking down another man's pants regardless of whether he is Jewish or gentile.... maybe this is common in your circle but it is not so in mine?

This would be the same NSZ which, amongst other things, murdered Leon Feldhendler, leader of the Sobibor rebellion, for being Jewish?

Or the group of Polish Jews murdered in Prosta Street during the Warsaw Rising 1944 by AK unit 'Hal' commanded by Captain Waclaw Stykowski. These victims, men and women came out of hiding in the former 'little ghetto' area only to be murdered by Stykowski's unit. Despite this atrocity being brought to the attention of Gen. 'Monter' no one was ever brought trial, eyewitnesses were intimidated by Stykowsk's men and AK counterintelligence claimed that Jews had carried out the murders to discredit the AK! Stykowski was awarded the Virtuti Militari for his part in the Rising. Despite the fact that evidence documents have been preserved until today no one was ever brought to trial for this massacre of Polish Jews or others reported as being carried out by Stykowski's unit.

Source:
Secret City: The hidden Jews of Warsaw 1940-1945 by Gunnar. S. Paulson
Harry  
17 Feb 2009 /  #143
Stykowski was awarded the Virtuti Militari for his part in the Rising.

That's odd. I mean, that medal was never awarded to people who lead massacres of civilians. Zygmunt Szendzielarz was the leader of the AK troops who carried the Dubingiai massacre but only Lithuanians were killed in that massacre, not proper humans.
Peter_H 3 | 47  
18 Feb 2009 /  #144
Sorry to everyone in the delay getting back to you, Krakow can waylay your weekend that way. Below are some answers and thoughts on the questions asked of my own responses and the general conversation. I’ve posted them separately to make them a little easier to follow.

Sjam – Post 87

I would be very appreciative if you could post that reference. Many thanks ;-)

Sure. There really is a bunch of references to this phenomenon, although I think it’s not hard to comprehend for anyone who understands communism and how it worked. Religion and communism are almost diametrically opposed, certainly in the early Stalin years that we’re discussing.

The best reference would be Poland and the Jews by Stanislaw Krajewski who has a chapter called Jews, Communism, and the Jewish Communists, which includes a section entitled Jewish communists rarely cared about Jewish concerns and often virtually stopped being Jewish pg123. He documents Polish Jewish emigrants complaining about there treatment by Jews in upper communist positions, such as Minc, Berman, Zambrowski and Borejsza. Some primary quotes from Polish-Jewish emigrants at the time include “Jewish Bolsheviks wanted to convince Stalin that they were first and foremost Communists, rather than Jews” Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik. Bernard Goldstein, a local community leader, says “they were hired servants of the dictatorship”, “Jewish communists were not especially interested in the Jewish issue”. Krajewski goes on himself to state that he believes “Among the most significant features of Jewish communists was their desire to leave the Jewish World, often to stop being Jewish…I, as well as my friends know this from our own experience”.

I would wholeheartedly recommend this book. It is a dispassionate and through look at modern Polish - Jewish relations. There is unfortunately to much literature out there, on both sides, that is little more than propaganda. Krajewski also deals with the problem of Polish Jews links with communism and their unwillingness to what was undoubtedly a movement, although by no means a major one. I agree with Krajewski here, Polish-Jews, in discussing the past, need to be more willing to participate in a discussion on their role in communism on a grass roots and ideological level, although that is a different discussion.

Separately, in a book I can’t seem to remember the name of at the moment, there is a diary extract from a Polish staff member who worked in the UB immediately after the war in Lublin, I think, and was shocked by how little regard Jewish UB members showed towards their fellow Jews. This book isn’t about Jewish issues, it’s about how the Soviets seized control of Lublin in 1944 and established the PKWN.

I also want to get back to 1Jola and Ela about figures, the IPN and the control Jews exercised in the post war security responses. Original quotes and responses below.

1Jola
I'm not sure why you say the statistics come from wiki when they actually come from historians at IPN. The figure of 1.7% you gave is roughly correct, and would raise no eyebrows since Jews made up around 1% of the population. At the decision making level they were hugely overrespresented. 167 of 450 positions is significant. When Jews are overrepresented in, say medicine, it is a cause for celebration, in this case it should be a source of shame and simply aknowledged. Poles are not proud of the executioners among us, and should be brought to justice. Notice that Helena Wolińska, a Stalinist procecutor, also cried anti-semitism when Poland tried to get her extradited from England.

I agree, to an extent, with Harry about the IPN, it cannot be treated as a wholly reliable source. It has some excellent historians and has done some superb work, for example, their Jedwabne research report is the most comprehensive and accurate produced thus far, and substantially superior to the work of Gross. That said, the IPN has been politicised, primarily by PIS, when it was in power, and subsequently, although arguably to a lesser extent, by PO. This undermining of its independence also undermines its objectivity. You are of course correct that the IPN uses primary sources, however, the figures I supplied were also from a primary source. As I mentioned in a previous post, the figures are notoriously unreliable, all we can say at the moment is that we are working with a lower boundary of 13% and an upper one of 37%. The main problem is that the primary sources the IPN is working with are themselves seriously tainted, we, or the IPN are unlikely to discover where there has been fraud and falsification, to say nothing of later amendments. That is by no means to say that the Bierut document is in anyway watertight. The poor quality of primary sources is what worries me most about the IPN lustracja investigations, although it is something I fully believe they should be undertaking. I’ll pick up the over representation and numbers again below.

When it's a famous non-religious Jewish musician, politician, or scientist, he is still a Jew; when it's criminal - he is not. That is called a double standard.

I agree, this is often a problem and a myth pushed by Israel. I’m a believer in Dawkins idea that no one is born Jewish/Catholic/Muslim, their parents make that choice for them. According to the Catholic Church, I am only a lapsed catholic, because only they can excommunicate me, I can’t leave. Unfortunately for them, I’m not a Catholic and they have no voice in that choice. In the same way, Israel, or at the other extreme, the IPN, doesn’t have the right to attribute someone as being Jewish, no matter they’re good or bad deeds, if they genuinely renounced their religion, which many Jews participating in the post war security forces did (see post above).

Do you know on what basis the IPN was registering an individual as a Jew in their research? Eg, parentage, heritage, stated religion. This could account for our discrepancy and open another debate.

Officer corps in any army also make a small percentage of the overall numbers, yet they make decisions - they play the leading role.

This is erroneous. In what way could we successfully compare the officer corps of an army with that of the Jewish role in Poland’s post war security services? There is no supporting evidence that Jews played a 'leading' or controlling role in the post war security services. If you believe 13%-37% of Jews dominated 87%- 63% of Poles, you are giving Catholic Poles too little credit and Polish Jews too much. I’m afraid it will also bring us to the end of our discussion, because it is not possible to rationally argue the bogeyman or conspiracy theories.

Ela
Given the percentage of Jews in post WWII Poland (less than 1% of the entire population). 37% is a very disproportionate number. 37% versus 1%...I would say that speaks for itself in an organization that was aimed at destroying any effort at establishing an independant Poland and executing and deporting mostly Polish-Catholics in it's course of existance. Then look at who led the primary Communist Security apparatus: Jakub Berman, Hilary Minc, and countless other Polish-Jews who went as far as changing their surnames to Polish-Catholic sounding ones in order to make it appear that the Communist apparatus in Poland did not appear 'too Jewish' looking to the general public.

I think it’s important to remember what we were talking about in the first place, because we’ve touched on several issues. The original quote from 1Jola was

A huge percentage of communist "security" at upper levels, were the Holocaust survivors-Jews. Being a Pole was a disadvantage at that time.

Whatever figure we take, whether it’s the 13% from Bierut or the 37% from the IPN, I think it’s quite obvious statistically that the two statements above are not true. A huge percentage of communist security at upper levels were not Jewish, they were in fact Polish, 67%, to take the lower figure; which also makes the second statement that being a Pole was a disadvantage incorrect.

1Jola and Ela, you’re right, there was a disproportionate number of Jews in the upper levels of the security services, there are concrete reasons accounting for this, such as fear, following the holocaust and subsequent pogroms. There are, however, also much more intricate, although less immediate reasons, primarily associated with Zionism and its attraction to communism and the pre-war political stance of Central European Jews. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is an uncomfortable part of Jewish history, that Jewish historians haven’t and need to fully deal with. I don’t, however, believe there is any truth or documentation supporting Ela’s suggestion that Jews joined the security services to destroy an effort at an independent Poland, or to execute and deport Catholics. Personally, I believe, most Jews, like most Poles, joined the security services for nothing more complicated than fear or to serve themselves.

Naming Berman and Minc as major players in post war security apparatus, which they were, is no more proof that me naming two Poles. We could carry on slinging them back and forth; however, your store would run dry, as only 37%, according to your IPN figures, were Jewish. I, on the other hand, have 67% of the forces to choose from.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
18 Feb 2009 /  #145
The best reference would be Poland and the Jews by Stanislaw Krajewski

Many thanks Peter for the reference and for insight regarding politicisation of IPN.

I agree totally IPN does employee some excellent historians. I know two of them; Jędrzej Tucholski who wrote the standard reference works on cichociemni (which my company is translating English for the very first time) and also Mr. Tucholski has been involved closely in recent IPN studies on Katyń; Dr. Rafał Wnuk who has been very helpful to me regarding information related to Polish anti-communist resistance movements and he was responsible for producing the best reference work on the subject: Atlas polskiego podziemia niepodległościowego 1944 - 1956.

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