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Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried?


Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
13 Feb 2009 /  #91
Please start a special thread for your lies about me, you can include your racism and racist abuse in that thread. I’ll happily point out all your lies and racism: in that thread.

No thanks - I'm quite happy to leave it here. Starting a thread to point out what an oxygen thief you are would be slightly weird, wouldn't it. You're always quite happy to pollute other threads with your trash, so I'll take some liberties old boy.

If you wish to point out my faults then do it here or, take your own suggestion and start your own thread about it.

C'mon then ... you spare no words for other people when you harass and criticise them but you've got nothing for moi?

You can't even lay flowers and candles on those graves.

Harry - the big paper tiger. As if I would message you!
1jola 14 | 1,879  
13 Feb 2009 /  #92
I cannot be more frank in saying that the only single reliable source in quoting Jewish numbers in post-war Security Apparatus in Poland is Bierut's note.The IPN took a number of disparate figures and reached it's own conclusion. When it comes to history, the only reliable source we have is a primary one.

IPN used primary sources. That is what historians do.

The IPN is not a primary source, it is derogatory.

Maybe I am confused with the definition of derogatory.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
13 Feb 2009 /  #93
Jozef Swiatlo, a Polish-Jew,

Polish traitor?

Blood tells ?
ela_lawyer 5 | 64  
13 Feb 2009 /  #94
How can an organisation which was 63 % Polish and 37% Jewish in its make up, according to your figures, have been driven by Jews?

Given the percentage of Jews in post WWII Poland (less than 1% of the entire population). 37% is a very disproportionate number. 37% versus 1%...I would say that speaks for itself in an organization that was aimed at destroying any effort at establishing an independant Poland and executing and deporting mostly Polish-Catholics in it's course of existance. Then look at who led the primary Communist Security apparatus: Jakub Berman, Hilary Minc, and countless other Polish-Jews who went as far as changing their surnames to Polish-Catholic sounding ones in order to make it appear that the Communist apparatus in Poland did not appear 'too Jewish' looking to the general public.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
13 Feb 2009 /  #95
Move a rock and who pops out ;-)))

It should be remembered that the IPN is not an independent organisation but a government sponsored agency that is bound to take into account directions given by its political masters of the day. The IPN's President is appointed by the Sejm. Because of this there has been criticism by opposition parties about bias within parts of IPN.
Harry  
13 Feb 2009 /  #96
Notice that Helena Wolińska, a Stalinist procecutor, also cried anti-semitism when Poland tried to get her extradited from England.

Remind me what happened to all the other people involved in the Fieldorf case. Arrest warrants were issued for how many people involved? How many of the judges? How many of the prosecutors? And of the people for whom arrest warrants were issued, what percentage were of Jewish descent and what percentage were of Catholic descent?

Jakub Berman, Hilary Minc, and countless other Polish-Jews who went as far as changing their surnames to Polish-Catholic sounding ones in order to make it appear that the Communist apparatus in Poland did not appear 'too Jewish' looking to the general public.

That would be one interpretation. Another would be that those people were sick of getting abuse from anti-semites and so tried to not be Jewish Poles. Another would be that they saw themselves as Poles only and so dropped their Jewish-sounding names in favour of names that the majority of Poles would consider to be properly Polish.

you've got nothing for moi?

Pity actually.

Now why not try posting on the topic?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
13 Feb 2009 /  #97
Slightly off topic but related:

An interesting aspect of CIA operations in Eastern Europe during the 1950's were the balloon drops of propaganda material over Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia for example on just one day in 1951, 11,000 balloons carrying 13 million leaflets were dropped over these countires; drops also included 4 American arimen into Hungary for covert anti-communist operations.

One of these propaganda balloon drops included hundreds of copies of the Polish book Drogi Cichociemnych (or in English The Unseen and Silent) which was the published stories of cichociemni operations in Poland during WII. The cichociemni fought against both Germans and also Soviets in occupied Poland (which is why this book was banned in Poland). Attempts were even made to stop publication of the English edition The Unseen and Silent by pro-Soviet factions within British Foreign Office; which at the time was heavily infiltrated by Soviet agents.

Also during 1955 and 1956 hundreds of Poles, Hungarians, Rumanians and other East Europeans were being trained at Fort Bragg in the USA by the Green Berets and also at a secret CIA base in West Germany for military operations in communist East Europe. A little known fact is that some of the instructors used by CIA and Green Berets were former Polish cichociemni.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
13 Feb 2009 /  #98
Remind me what happened to all the other people involved in the Fieldorf case. Arrest warrants were issued for how many people involved? How many of the judges? How many of the prosecutors? And of the people for whom arrest warrants were issued, what percentage were of Jewish descent and what percentage were of Catholic descent?

Are you obsessed or something? Do your own research and post it, this should be good.

Peter_H: The IPN is not a primary source, it is derogatory.

It also has rather interesting habits. For example it has lots to say about Helena Wolińska-Brus (who happens to be of Jewish decent) but has bugger all to say about the other people involved in the Fieldorf case. Not a peep about Maria Gurowska...who happens to be from Catholic descent

You are even making a case against yourself. Gurowska was prosecuted in 1992. She died in 1998. Case closed. Woliska was alive and "from 1999-2008, Poland had been seeking the extradition of Wolińska from the United Kingdom to stand trial in Poland. The official charges against her were initiated by the Commission for Investigating Crimes against the Polish Nation. Wolińska was accused of being an "accessory to a court murder," classified as a Stalinist crime and a crime of genocide"

They should have lots to say about her!

There is always a chance that you found interesting the fact they prosecuted a Pole before a Jew. Or shall we just call her British, of a British Jew?

It should be remembered that the IPN is not an independent organisation but a government sponsored agency that is bound to take into account directions given by its political masters of the day. The IPN's President is appointed by the Sejm. Because of this there has been criticism by opposition parties about bias within parts of IPN.

You want an NGO to chase crimes against the Polish people? Criricism by the opposition, that is rich. The communists are crying now. How sad and unchristian like to prosecute criminals.
Harry  
13 Feb 2009 /  #99
You are even making a case against yourself. Gurowska was prosecuted in 1992. She died in 1998. Case closed.

She wasn't prosecuted. The case was opened on 5 May 1992, on 10 August 1995 the Prosecutor's office recommended prosecution, on 19 March 1996 she was indicted for murder but she didn't bother to turn up to any of the court hearings so they were all adjourned.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
13 Feb 2009 /  #100
The case was closed because she didn't bother to turn up in court?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
13 Feb 2009 /  #101
1jola Harry many times advocated genocide of polish people, he's a famous hater and a neonazi.
Harry  
13 Feb 2009 /  #102
The case was closed because she didn't bother to turn up in court?

The case was closed because she died before they bothered to make her go to court or to arrest her.

There are other people closely involved in the Fieldorf case who still live in Warsaw today. Funny how the IPN doesn't splash their names all over the place.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
13 Feb 2009 /  #103
All criminals should face trial. Period. The British had a moral duty to make sure Wolińska
faced her accussers in court, however the British legal system decided otherwise and the British government is bound by these descisons.

However in cases like Wolińska I believe these trials should be held in the Hague where there is a better chance of justice being served rather than just revenge. I doubt very much (and I think you will agree ) that Wolińska would have received an unprejudiced trial in Poland?

I am not implying for one moment that I believe that the trials Wolińska herself presided over in communist Poland were in anyway fair or were more than just show trials, in which innocent Poles were victims of state sanctioned murder—Fieldorf and Pilecki being two out of many thousands.

Was Polish prime minister Józef Cyrankiewicz ever placed before a court for his central role in the state murder of Pilecki? As he died in 1989 maybe this was to early for IPN? Was Cyrankiewicz also a Polish Jew?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
13 Feb 2009 /  #104
1jola: The case was closed because she didn't bother to turn up in court?

The case was closed because she died

Oh, thank you Harry. You should be more careful. But, I have a feeling you are trying to say something and just don't know how to phrase it. I hope writing isn't your profession.

There are other people closely involved in the Fieldorf case who still live in Warsaw today. Funny how the IPN doesn't splash their names all over the place.

Heck, let's see what you got. You can splash them here.

However in cases like Wolińska I believe these trials should be held in the Hague where there is a better chance of justice being served rather than just revenge. I doubt very much (and I think you will agree ) that Wolińska would have received an unprejudiced trial in Poland?

The Hague would have been a better choice but not for the reason you state. I think she would have. There would have been a lot of international attention. It also would have raised questions like: Why haven't communist crimes been accounted for and perpetrators punished? Why do kids have Holocaust studies and not just genocide studies, if you really must burden them with that? Why isn't it a crime to deny communist crime, like it is to deny the Holocaust? A missed chance.

Was Polish prime minister Józef Cyrankiewicz ever placed before a court for his central role in the state murder of Pilecki?

Not a chance. The communists were in control. He was Polish and his father a Nationalist.
Harry  
13 Feb 2009 /  #105
It also would have raised questions like: Why haven't communist crimes been accounted for and perpetrators punished?

Putting Gurowska on trial would have had the same effect. But she was allowed to avoid having a trial by just refusing to turn up to court for the rest of her life.

Putting any of the other judges or prosecutors involved in the Fieldorf case on trial would also have the same effect. But for some reason the Polish authorities spent all their time trying to extradite a Polish Jew from Britain and so they apparently had no time to arrange trials for the Polish Catholics living in Poland.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
13 Feb 2009 /  #106
Not a chance. The communists were in control. He was Polish and his father a Nationalist.

What about all of the others involved in Pilecki's trial and execution?
From the 'arresting' officers upwards?
Have any charges been brought by IPN against those still living who were dierctly involved, I guess there must be some still living?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
13 Feb 2009 /  #107
Putting Gurowska on trial would have had the same effect. But she was allowed to avoid having a trial by just refusing to turn up to court for the rest of her life.

Because she was Polish?

Putting any of the other judges or prosecutors involved in the Fieldorf case on trial would also have the same effect.

You are clearly not familiar with Fieldorf's daughter's efforts for over ten years.

But for some reason the Polish authorities spent all their time trying to extradite a Polish Jew from Britain and so they apparently had no time to arrange trials for the Polish Catholics living in Poland.

You have got to get over the Jew thing. Post some info, not only your goofy opinions, please.

What about all of the others involved in Pilecki's trial and execution?

I'm sorry but I'm busy at the moment wiping my ... with Harry and we're on the Filedorf trial.

Harry: Putting any of the other judges or prosecutors involved in the Fieldorf case on trial would also have the same effect.

Harry, it turns out they are all Jewish.

"In a more complicated case, Poland’s authorities have been unable to prosecute several persons implicated in the judicial murder on trump-up charges of killing Jews, Communists, and Soviet POWs of General August Emil Fieldorf (“Nil”) of the Home Army. The persons involved in the sordid affair include Kazimierz Górski, Alicja Graff, and Witold Gatner, who reside in Poland, and Stefan Michnik and Fajga Mindla Danielak aka Helena Wolińska, who live abroad. A few participants in the murder lived unmolested until their recent deaths in independent Poland after 1989 (Igor Andrejew and Maria Zand-Górowska) or abroad (Beniami n Wajsblech, Emil Mertz, and Gustaw Auscaler).[Israel]

His 'defendor', Jerzy Mering lives in Israel too.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
13 Feb 2009 /  #108
But actually Harry does makes a good point?

Who else was indited to stand trial for the state murder of Fieldorf?

No one can seriously believe these alleged crimes (on the presumtion of innocence until proven guilty by trial) were perpetrated by just one person? What about all the levels of people that must have been involved in the Fieldorf trial from the arresting officer upwards?

Likewise in Pilecki's case there must have been more that just Polish prime minister Józef Cyrankiewicz and prosecutor Czesław £apiński involved? £apiński I believe rather fittingly died in hospital on Captain Pilecki street in Warsaw? So was Czesław £apiński a Polish Jew?

What about interogators (From IPN website:) lieutenants: S. £yszkowski, W. Krawczyński, J. Kroszel, T. Słowianek, E. Chimczak, and S. Alaborski in presence of the interrogation officer of the Ministry, lieutenant M. Krawczyński, and a prosecutor of the Public Prosecutor's Head Office, Major Rychlik...were these guys brought to trial?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
13 Feb 2009 /  #109
Who else was indited to stand trial for the state murder of Fieldorf?

You are getting closer to the begining of understanding the Third Rzeczpospolita Polska.

Another good point from Harry. He is on a roll. Maybe he would tell us why they weren't prosecuted.

What about interogators (From IPN website:) lieutenants: S. £yszkowski, W. Krawczyński, J. Kroszel, T. Słowianek, E. Chimczak, and S. Alaborski

What about them. Fieldorf is not here to testify against them and that was before cameras were in torture cells. They probably didn't describe and sign their interogation methods. The people whose signatures are on the documents is what counts.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
14 Feb 2009 /  #110
What about them.

And again from IPN website what about:

The presiding judge was lieutenant colonel Jan Hryckowian, with the other members of the judicial bench being: Captain Józef Badecki, Captain Stefan Nowacki and lieutenant Ryszard Czarkowski. Witold’s accuser was the vice-prosecutor of the Chief Military Prosecutor’s Office – Major Czesław £apiński.

Were any of these men indited apart from Major Czesław £apiński? Surely they could be seen as equally as complicit of the state murder of Pilecki? £apiński was only vice-prosecutor.

Then you have the interogators lieutenants: S. £yszkowski, W. Krawczyński, J. Kroszel, T. Słowianek, E. Chimczak, and S. Alaborski in presence of the interrogation officer of the Ministry, lieutenant M. Krawczyński, and a prosecutor of the Public Prosecutor's Head Office, Major Rychlik?

All whom you gloss over although the IPN state in their words '... lieutenants: S. £yszkowski, W. Krawczyński, J. Kroszel, T. Słowianek, E. Chimczak, and S. Alaborski – men who were especially famous for their savagery'

Of the thirteen named above as being involved in Pileckik's state murder how many were Polish Jews? Be interested to see if Polish Jews as a group were over-represented in this small sample of named perpetrators in Pilecki's death?

I would include these people as complicit:

On May 25, 1948 at 9.30 PM, in presence of the Vice-prosecutor of the Chief Military Prosecutor’s Office – Major S. Cypryszewski, the warden of the Mokotów Prison – Col. Ryszard Mońko, a medic – Col. doctor Kazimierz Jezierski and a clergyman – father Capt. Wincenty Martusiewicz. Witold Pilecki was executed and secretly buried,

Why was a 'root and branch' prosectution not carried out?

I am sure that a similar number of persons were involved in the Fieldorf case.

A few participants in the murder lived unmolested until their recent deaths in independent Poland after 1989 (Igor Andrejew and Maria Zand-Górowska)

As Harry said ... why was this allowed when the extradition of just one person was persued for so many years? Why do you think they weren't prosecuted?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
14 Feb 2009 /  #111
I will be glad to talk to you about Pilecki after we get somewhere with the Fieldorf case.

1jola: A few participants in the murder lived unmolested until their recent deaths in independent Poland after 1989 (Igor Andrejew and Maria Zand-Górowska)

As Harry said ... why was this allowed when the extradition of just one person was persued for so many years?

Maria Gurowska died before she went to trial in 98. She was the main judge and she was in the process of being prosecuted. It took time, six years, to bring her to trial, which was set, but she died. Harry suggested that the courts were slow to prosecute her because she was a Catholic Pole. She was not. She was a Jewess. Besides, she was the specialist in quick trials; shall we do the same? Now, all the key people in this case were Jewish. Not one has been brought to justice. Now, Harry's argument has now turned on him. No wonder he is not here to defend his nonsense.

Some are alive and live in Warsaw and Israel. Yes, the question is why are they not brought to justice? Of course the case with Isreal is clear; they never give up criminals.

As Harry said ...

Harry has given us didly so far in terms of facts AND will probably continue to do so in the future.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
14 Feb 2009 /  #112
Some are alive and live in Warsaw and Israel. Yes, the question is why are they not brought to justice? Of course the case with Isreal is clear; they never give up criminals.

What is your answer to that question? What is the excuse for Poland about those still alive and living in Warsaw? That they are Polish Jews; is that the excuse? Even though Polish Jews are supposed to have controlled the communist state... now it is now longer communist controlled what is the reason given? So why did it take six years to build a case against Maria Gurowska? Was it not so clear that she was implicated in Fieldorf state sanctioned murder? I thought it was plain she was from the outset?

I repeat my question: why was a 'root and branch' prosectution not carried out?

And are all those involved listed by the IPN as being resposnsible in the Pilecki case Polish Jews? How many of those the IPN identified actually stood trial for Pilecki's execution?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
14 Feb 2009 /  #113
Had there been a real turn over of power in 1989, the Stalinist murderers would have been prosecuted swiftly. Instead, they have been collecting hefty pensions for their hard work executing patriots till last year, when PiS took them away. I have a feeling you haven't been following the political scene in Poland.

Was the prosecutor Stefan Michnik implicated in the Pilecki murder?
OP sjam 2 | 541  
14 Feb 2009 /  #114
Instead, they have been collecting hefty pensions for their hard work executing patriots till last year, when PiS took them away.

Actually until anyone is brought to trial how can they be guilty of executing anyone? It is just an accusation until found guilty at a trial.

Pensions taken away.....and what about their liberty? Has PiS taken this away? Are they going to bring these people in Warsaw to trial? Again I repeat my question: why was a 'root and branch' prosecution not carried out?

Had there been a real turn over of power in 1989, the Stalinist murderers would have been prosecuted swiftly.

Let's look at your proposed possible excuse for no other persons being tried for Fieldorfs murder by the state and say it took 10 years for the turn over of power (that you said didn't take place so swiftly) then what about the next 10 years?

So it took six of these years to build a case against just Maria Gurowska who couldn't have been so clearly implicated in the Fieldorf case or were the Polish investigators being directed not to push Gurowska's case to trial? If so by whom?

Is it true that she just didn't turn up to stand trial?

If it is true then why was she not forced into trial? Maybe the evidence wasn't that strong and no one wanted the risk of her case to be thrown out?

Was the prosecutor Stefan Michnik implicated in the Pilecki murder?

No idea... you tell me? If he was then that is just another name to the IPN list of perpetrators in Pilecki's murder by the state. How many of those listed on IPN website are being sent for trial? How many are still alive in Poland or are they all living in Israel?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
14 Feb 2009 /  #115
Pensions taken away.....and what about their liberty? Has PiS taken this away? Are they going to bring these people in Warsaw to trial?

In case you haven't noticed PiS was at the helm long enough. Are you thick; there hasn't been a right wing Parliment yet. Ex-marxists and today's new left are not interested in prosecuting their predecesors' crimes. There is the old guard throughout the system since they only shared power with the new left. You have seen how deathly affraid they all are of lustration.

Like I said there hasn't been any real transfer of power. Now, why people voted in communists again is a sadder question.

I told you before, look up gen.Fieldorf daughters' struggle since 1990. I think Salinist prosecutor Witold Gatner was practising law in Warsaw till last year!

Is it true that she just didn't turn up to stand trial?

It is true. She died before the trial started. She most likely used the fake doctor note to not to show up to hearings and thus delaying the process.

How many of those listed on IPN website are being sent for trial? How many are still alive in Poland or are they all living in Israel?

I'm not your secretary, so do your own research and post it.
OP sjam 2 | 541  
14 Feb 2009 /  #116
In case you haven't noticed PiS was at the helm long enough. Are you thick; there hasn't been a right wing Parliment yet. Ex-marxists and today's new left are not interested in prosecuting their predecesors' crimes.

Now I may well be thick but even I can see this statement of yours doesn't square with Poland's three time failed extradition attempts (lasting over several years or more) for Helena Wolińska-Brus but no correspondingly determined effort to bring anyone else involved to trial for same crimes against Fieldorf notwithstanding those that are in living Israel—whom you say would never give up their criminals? It would be fair to say that even Poland doesn't give up its own criminals living openly in Warsaw and until recently still living on good pensions... what a joke!

sjam:
How many of those listed on IPN website are being sent for trial? How many are still alive in Poland or are they all living in Israel?

I'm not your secretary, so do your own research and post it.

I am so glad you are not my secretary because you have no answers to even the simplest question of your opinion on how many perpetrators in the Pilecki state murder (listed by the IPN as being involved) you think are Polish Jews? Maybe not enough for you to make a point ;-))

there hasn't been a right wing Parliment yet

Isn't PiS center-rightist conservative party or maybe you have in mind for Poland a resurgent anti-semitic, anti-communist, anti-capitalist, fascistic ONR?

But wait a minute, I remember you chose to escape Poland for a better life in the free 'west' so Polish politics are not relevant to you :-)))
1jola 14 | 1,879  
14 Feb 2009 /  #117
It would be fair to say that even Poland doesn't give up its own criminals living openly in Warsaw and until recently still living on good pensions... what a joke!

Maybe not a joke, but shameful. Why do you think it is so?

I am so glad you are not my secretary because you have no answers to even the simplest question of your opinion on how many perpetrators in the Pilecki state murder (listed by the IPN as being involved) you think are Polish Jews?

I have no idea. You seem obssessed with Jews, though.

sjam: there hasn't been a right wing Parliment yet

Isn't PiS center-rightist conservative party

When had Poland a right wing government in 1989-2009? When you answer that question, you will stop asking stupid questions why haven't they prosecuted communist crimes.

or maybe you have in mind for Poland a resurgent anti-semitic, anti-communist...

Anti-semitic, no, anti-communist, very much so.

Again, you need to get over the Jew thing. Maybe some warm milk will do.

Well, then, why were they going only after Wolińska?
lesser 4 | 1,311  
14 Feb 2009 /  #118
Isn't PiS center-rightist conservative party or maybe you have in mind for Poland a resurgent anti-semitic, anti-communist, anti-capitalist, fascistic ONR?

Sorry but you have little idea either about political science or Polish politics. President Kaczynski openly admit to be leftist, recently nominated Ryszard Bugaj to be his economic advisor. Whole PiS have roots in pre-WWII socialists movement, Pilsudski's 'national fraction' to be exact. Some call them to be 'pious socialists' but even this view is not correct. The first party of Kaczynski brothers (PC) was not known from its 'Christian character'. They pretend to be Catholics only for political purpose, to receive support from Torun. Semantic chaos in political terminology in Poland causing that centre-left party is considered by many to be rightist.

The fact that on the right of the PiS you see ONR, this is just another 'flower'.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
14 Feb 2009 /  #119
Well, lesser, that was a bit harsh. You assign positions on the political spectrum too arbitrarily. Many see PiS as centre right as sjam said. They were ultra conservative, most commonly identified with right wingers.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
14 Feb 2009 /  #120
I have write myself that many think that they are rightists, because of semantic chaos in political terminology in Poland. After 1989 many consider all those who were known from opposition to communist regime to be right-wing. While this is undeniable fact that some of them were leftists. I spent a lot of my free time on studying political science, history and observations of Polish and international politics. Thus my knowledge of the subject is superior to those 'many' that never bothered to learn.

Beside of that I don't use such term like ultra-conservatism, that is just how some non-conservatives refer to conservatives. The same about leftist who call people who abide to teaching of the CC to be ultra-Catholics. They reserve the term "Catholic" only to those who "know better" how the Pope should run the church. This is false rhetoric.

While PiS for example abide to the teaching of the CC only if they see it profitable from the perspective of popularity rankings. They are not obsessed against the church like many leftist but also they wont stand in defence if such action would be unpopular. The same could be said about PO with all due distance.

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